Why are Christians against Israel?

[SolomonVII]

I agree.

Want to see what would happen if Israel gave the land of "Israel" proper, back to the Arabs....check out the Gaza strip before and after the Jews gave it back to the Arabs.

Seriously, Israel had made that strip into an agricultural gold mine.... the desert bloomed as it were... now it's a mess....

The Palestinians destroyed the infrastructure after the Israel government ethnically cleansed the Jews from that land.
When Palestinians start being serious about their freedom and making a future for themselves, then by all means Christians may support them. Until then, there is nothing worthwhile to work for.

 

[Vicomte13]

Again, this proves your original premise wrong...there ARE real Kohanim!

There are real people who really think they are kohanim. That much is certain. There may be real people who actually are descended from Aaron, some of whom carry the name Kohen, and some of whom don't. That much may also be true.

Putting the two together to identify somebody who certainly is a descendant of Aaron - not doable, not real, not certain.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

There are real people who really think they are kohanim. That much is certain. There may be real people who actually are descended from Aaron, some of whom carry the name Kohen, and some of whom don't. That much may also be true.

Putting the two together to identify somebody who certainly is a descendant of Aaron - not doable, not real, not certain.

Absolutely they can...if you use all lines of evidence. A family that is Jewish, will the name Kohen with the DNA markers that all other Jews named Kohen share...

 

[JacksBratt]

There are real people who really think they are kohanim. That much is certain. There may be real people who actually are descended from Aaron, some of whom carry the name Kohen, and some of whom don't. That much may also be true.

Putting the two together to identify somebody who certainly is a descendant of Aaron - not doable, not real, not certain.

Well, men of this earth may believe as you do.

God, on the other hand, always fulfills His prophesies.

Look at this:
Jeremiah 22:24
As surely as I live,” declares the LORD, “even if you, Jehoiachin son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, were a signet ring on my right hand, I would still pull you off.
Jeremiah 22:30

This is what the LORD says: “Record this man as if childless, a man who will not prosper in his lifetime, for none of his offspring will prosper, none will sit on the throne of David or rule any more in Judah.”

Satan must have thought that he had it made... now the line of the Messiah was cursed by God Himself.

Yet, Christ was born and He is still perfectly in line of David, just not through Jehoiakim, but Nathan.

So, it will be with the true Jewish priests... They will be found and the temple will be legit.

 

[Simon_Templar]

The "coming on the clouds" image, understood in context, refers to Jesus ascending in vindication, not descending to meet raptured believers. I can provide the complete supporting argument if you like. The relevant text is Daniel 7 where the son of Man clear ascends "on the clouds" in triumph after defeating the beasts.

This is a total tangent, but a pet issue of mine. The phrase "coming on the clouds" or "ascending on the clouds" etc, is not meant to be a specific description of a literal means of travel, either ascending or descending.

The phrase actually originates from Canaanite (ugaritic) Baal worship. Baal was the storm god and thus one of his special divine titles was the one who rides on the clouds and variations of that. One of the things that the Israeltes commonly did in the Old Testament was take material from the Canaanites and turn it back on them as a kind of polemic and propaganda. In this case the Israelites took this title and applied to the God of Israel, essentially saying "It's not Baal who rides on the clouds, it's actually Yahweh!" Thus the phrase became a description of divine glory that was applied to God.

You are correct that it is used in Daniel 7 and this has special significance because in Daniel 7 it is not applied to Yahweh who is present under the title "Ancient of Days" it is applied to "one like the son of man" in other words, a human being. This passage is clearly saying that a human being will be God and will have divine glory. The Jews themselves debated this passage and who this son of man would be for centuries, only outlawing the teaching after the rise of the Christianity, for obvious reasons.

When Jesus refers to himself as "the Son of Man" he is referencing this passage. When he refers to himself as coming on the clouds of heaven, he is referencing this passage. This is why when he said to the Sanhedrin "you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Glory and coming on the clouds of heaven" they perfectly understood that he was referring to that passage and he was claiming to be God.

When this is explicitly linked to the second coming by both Paul and Jesus, it doesn't describe the method of his travel, it is saying that in that moment he will be fully revealed as God in his full divine glory.

This is also meant to be the backdrop to the Transfiguration when Jesus appears in his Glory and is surrounded by a cloud. As an aside, it is likely that this event happened right were the center of Baal worship had been in the OT. So it was basically kind of a ha ha told you so, moment where Jesus shows up Baal on his home turf.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Absolutely they can...if you use all lines of evidence. A family that is Jewish, will the name Kohen with the DNA markers that all other Jews named Kohen share...

Personally I don't doubt that there are valid descendants of Aaron etc.

However, technically what you are proposing is a circular argument. In other words, These people claim to have Aaron's DNA and we know that it is Aaron's DNA because these people have it.

All your argument technically proves is that the people in question had a common ancestor. It doesn't tell you who that common ancestor was. At best this could be seen as a rather small piece of evidence that might support their tradition that they are Kohanim.

In order to actually prove descent from Aaron, you'd have to have Aaron's DNA in some indisputable form. We don't have that.

However, I've seen a lot of people comment about the Ashkenazi etc, and there is a common theory that many of the European Jews are not racially Jewish but are descended from gentiles who converted to Judaism. I believe that this idea has been largely disproved by genetic testing. As far as I've been able to see most of the Ashkenazi have been shown to have Israelite DNA going back to the middle east, and are not of purely European/Caucasian race.

To a certain extent that question is moot, however, because Jewishness and Israeliteness is biblically not racially defined but religiously defined. Israelites who forsook the Covenant cut off from Israel and were no longer part of the people. Likewise gentiles could join the covenant and become part of Israel.

As a final note, this is pure speculation, but it is statistically probable that most people in the world have some link to Israelite descent. Do to the nature of the way ancestry spreads out as you go down through time, and the fact that the 10 tribes were scattered among the nations, and the Jews were also scattered among the nations, combined with how long ago this happened, it is probable that virtually everyone in the world could have some Israelite ancestry.

For example, it is statistically estimated that virtually every person in Europe today can claim descent from Charlemagne. Similarly in Ireland virtually every person can claim descent from King Niall. Anyone in history who had many children is likely to be an ancestor to much of the world's population today.

The reason for this is that as you go back in time the number of your ancestors increase exponentially. At one generation you have your parents (2). At to Generations you have your grandparents (4), then your greats (8) then your great-greats (16). By the time you go back a thousand year, the number of your ancestors is greater than the population of the world.

This means 2 things. First, there is necessarily a lot of intermarriage within extended families. Second, it means that every person from the ancient past, who's line didn't die out, is probably an ancestor to most living people today.

The exception to this would be that regions like China and Europe which had very little contact obviously couldn't have much intermarriage so if you are European, you are probably related to every person in medieval Europe, but not to every person in medieval China.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Well, men of this earth may believe as you do.

God, on the other hand, always fulfills His prophesies.

Look at this:
Jeremiah 22:24
As surely as I live,” declares the LORD, “even if you, Jehoiachin son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, were a signet ring on my right hand, I would still pull you off.
Jeremiah 22:30

This is what the LORD says: “Record this man as if childless, a man who will not prosper in his lifetime, for none of his offspring will prosper, none will sit on the throne of David or rule any more in Judah.”

Satan must have thought that he had it made... now the line of the Messiah was cursed by God Himself.

Yet, Christ was born and He is still perfectly in line of David, just not through Jehoiakim, but Nathan.

So, it will be with the true Jewish priests... They will be found and the temple will be legit.

Why do you think that there is a biblical need for a restored Jewish priesthood and temple?

 

[JacksBratt]

Why do you think that there is a biblical need for a restored Jewish priesthood and temple?

It is a reinforcement that the 144,000 have totally rejected the fact that Christ was their Messiah. That even today after 2000 or some odd years, they still cling to the belief that their Messiah has yet to come.

Then, 144,000 of these Jewish people, practicing ancient temple sacrifices and procedures, will finally accept Christ as their Messiah and He will be their king for a 1000 years.

 

[RisenInJesus]

There are real people who really think they are kohanim. That much is certain. There may be real people who actually are descended from Aaron, some of whom carry the name Kohen, and some of whom don't. That much may also be true.

Putting the two together to identify somebody who certainly is a descendant of Aaron - not doable, not real, not certain.

I would think it would be doable, real, and certain if it is God's will and plan.

 

[Vicomte13]

I would think it would be doable, real, and certain if it is God's will and plan.

And since it is not real, doable or certain, that would

 

[Vicomte13]

Indicate that it is neither Gos’s Will nor plan.

 

[JacksBratt]

Indicate that it is neither Gos’s Will nor plan.

Where God and Israel are combined together.... I would recommend that we "never say never".

God held back an ocean, brought food to the desert, water to the desert, held the sun and moon still, moved the sun backward, had an angel kill a bunch of evil enemies, closed the mouths of lions, made three men fireproof, sent fire down on a mountain, broke tall walls while music was played, .... the list goes on and on.

The bible says that the temple will be built and scripture indicates that the old rituals will resume...

Intelligence and admittedly by the Jews themselves... the implements for these ceremonies have already been fashioned as the old ways demand.

You don't think God can show that there are pure bloodlines to the priesthood?

 

[Vicomte13]

Where God and Israel are combined together.... I would recommend that we "never say never".

God held back an ocean, brought food to the desert, water to the desert, held the sun and moon still, moved the sun backward, had an angel kill a bunch of evil enemies, closed the mouths of lions, made three men fireproof, sent fire down on a mountain, broke tall walls while music was played, .... the list goes on and on.

The bible says that the temple will be built and scripture indicates that the old rituals will resume...

Intelligence and admittedly by the Jews themselves... the implements for these ceremonies have already been fashioned as the old ways demand.

You don't think God can show that there are pure bloodlines to the priesthood?

The Bible also says that the Temple will be destroyed, the tenants driven out of the vineyard and it handed over to new people. That happened. The Temple WAS rebuilt. But then it was destroyed. The notion that it will be rebuilt AGAIN is erroneous. The Bible does not say that. In fact, it says the diametric opposite. There is one covenant now - the new one through Jesus, for individuals. God made it impossible to follow the old covenant, even as he pronounced the words that it could never change - MEANING that it can't be revived, because the means to do so do not exist, thanks to God.

Obviously this "mythical Israel" is very important to some branches of Christianity, which is why American foreign policy has its morbid fixation on the modern state of Israel, which is really a European colony established in the Middle East.

My religion does not expect a rebuilding of the Temple or a return of the Jewish rites of sacrifice. In truth, the whole notion of revived Temple Judaism is quite the opposite of what God revealed, as we see it.

Not wanting to fight too hard with other Christians over what they obviously sincerely believe, I don't argue this too much, but the bottom line is that God destroyed the Temple for a reason, and he made the law unalterable for a reason, and that reason was to prevent there being any plausible competitor to the New Covenant he established with individuals.

The Old Covenant, with Israel, had penalty clauses if the Hebrews didn't follow it. They didn't, so God destroyed them once, then reconstituted them. The second destruction followed the utter doom pronounced upon the Temple by the Son of God in his final week. Israel is over. It's finished. It cannot be revived. God doesn't WANT it revived. The Israelites were warned in the covenant of what would happen if they disobeyed. They did. God gave them a second chance. He never promised them a third.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Not wanting to fight too hard with other Christians over what they obviously sincerely believe, I don't argue this too much, but the bottom line is that God destroyed the Temple for a reason, and he made the law unalterable for a reason, and that reason was to prevent there being any plausible competitor to the New Covenant he established with individuals.

The Old Covenant, with Israel, had penalty clauses if the Hebrews didn't follow it. They didn't, so God destroyed them once, then reconstituted them. The second destruction followed the utter doom pronounced upon the Temple by the Son of God in his final week. Israel is over. It's finished. It cannot be revived. God doesn't WANT it revived. The Israelites were warned in the covenant of what would happen if they disobeyed. They did. God gave them a second chance. He never promised them a third.

Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths. And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them. And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain there shall be the plague with which the Lord afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths. This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.

And on that day there shall be inscribed on the bells of the horses, “Holy to the Lord.” And the pots in the house of the Lord shall be as the bowls before the altar. And every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holy to the Lord of hosts, so that all who sacrifice may come and take of them and boil the meat of the sacrifice in them. And there shall no longer be a trader in the house of the Lord of hosts on that day.

 

[Simon_Templar]

It is a reinforcement that the 144,000 have totally rejected the fact that Christ was their Messiah. That even today after 2000 or some odd years, they still cling to the belief that their Messiah has yet to come.

Then, 144,000 of these Jewish people, practicing ancient temple sacrifices and procedures, will finally accept Christ as their Messiah and He will be their king for a 1000 years.

Why would the 144,000 follow the old temple sacrifices and procedures since those were all done away with by Christ?

 

[JacksBratt]

Why would the 144,000 follow the old temple sacrifices and procedures since those were all done away with by Christ?

This is due to the fact that the 144,000 are just 12,000 from each tribe, out of the millions of non messianic Jews who will be following the old ways. Then, during the tribulation these 144,000 will be enlightened and accept Christ as their messiah.

The old ways are are not followed in the millennium. They are done for a few years at the start of the tribulation until the desecration.

 

[Yekcidmij]

This is due to the fact that the 144,000 are just 12,000 from each tribe,

Well....apparently not Dan or Ephraim.

 

[Yekcidmij]

In light of President Trump determining that Jerusalem is Israel's capital and designating to have our embassy moved there, I thought most Christians would be happy and excited for the news. Maybe a lot of us are, as we wholly believe that Israel belongs to the Jewish people and has always belonged to them.

Maybe not everyone believes the modern state of Israel is identical to biblical Israel?

Why doesn't it belong to the Samaritans?

 

[SolomonVII]

Maybe not everyone believes the modern state of Israel is identical to biblical Israel?

Why doesn't it belong to the Samaritans?

It pretty much still does.
All 797 of them.
Samaritans - Wikipedia


As of January 1, 2017, there were 796 Samaritans,[75] half of whom reside in their modern homes at Kiryat Luza on Mount Gerizim, which is sacred to them, and the rest in the city of Holon, just outside Tel Aviv.[22][23] There are also four Samaritan families residing in Binyamina-Giv'at Ada, Matan, and Ashdod.
. Samaritans living in Samaria have been granted passports by both Israel and the Palestinian Authority.
See also: Cousin marriage in the Middle East
One of the biggest problems facing the community today is the issue of continuity. With such a small population, divided into only four families (Cohen, Tsedakah, Danafi, and Marhiv, a fifth family dying out in the twentieth century) and a general refusal to accept converts, there has been a history of genetic disorders within the group due to the small gene pool.

 

[jaybird88]

In light of President Trump determining that Jerusalem is Israel's capital and designating to have our embassy moved there, I thought most Christians would be happy and excited for the news. Maybe a lot of us are, as we wholly believe that Israel belongs to the Jewish people and has always belonged to them.

But I see a lot of Catholics, especially bishops and even the pope, who appears to be against the move and seem to care more for the Palestinian people.

As far as I know, there has never been a recognized country known as Palestine. The Jews have always said they want to live peacefully with the Muslims and they can share the land, but the Muslims appear to be the violent ones and want the Jews gone. When Israel defends itself against groups like Hamas, the world gets angry at Israel.

I don't understand why this is. Why is Israel always the bad guy? And why does the pope and Catholic contingent seem to support the Palestinians over the Jews?

the Jews that lived in Palestine before actually did live in peace side by side with Muslims, and better yet no one had any problems with this.
its kind of a silly statement to claim you want to live in peace with someone and only making this statement after you have violently kicked a husband, wife and children out of their home.
the news media may report that its always the muslims that cause all the trouble but the common sense facts tell a different story, the state calling themselves Israel have a military budget 20 times bigger than all Muslim countries combined. when you study history its always the violent countries that have the biggest military budget. nazi germany and roman empire but all their money into their war machine and they were always at war. Tibet put less than 1 percent of its funds into military, never had a standing army, never invaded another culture ever.
another thing they dont report is 20 Muslims die for every 1 Israeli that dies.