Who then can be saved?

[fhansen]

You twisted the meaning of Rom 8:12-14 and forced it to say something very different to what it actually says. I don't know what your motive is for twisting what Gods Word says, but I hope you do it in ignorance, because God promises to cast those who add or take away from what he said.

You ignore God's word while Rom 8:12-14 is competely consistent with it:

"He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:6-7

"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified." Rom 2:13

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

So the plain meaning of Rom 8:12-14 is obvious just going by how it reads. Again, cooperation. Salvation is directly connected to our nearness to God, a nearness which is the purpose of our faith. If we say we're near to Him but we sin, then we need to take a look at our opinion regarding our salvation. Good fruit, overcoming the deeds of the flesh, and love are all part and parcel of the same thing, and of being reconciled with God-and remaining in Him: John 15:5, Rom 8:12-14, and 1 John 3:6-8 here:

"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work."

If you think this is automatic, that it just happens to you because you've once turned to and entered fellowship with God as if you're now some kind of puppet who has no will of his own and cannot sin, then you need to live a little more of this life.

 

[BNR32FAN]

God didn't abandon His church for 1500 years until some late comers came along to improve it while disagreeing with each other over doctrine at the same time.

That's because you don't fully understand the gospel. The new covenant was never, never, never intended as a reprieve from man's obligation to be righteous, with or without regard to the law. Rather, it's purpose is to forgive sin and give us the new hearts and spirits with which to overcome sin, with a rigtheousness apart from the law that the law and the prophets actually testify to (Rom 3:21) but could not accomplish in us, so that "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us [even if we've never heard the law], who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Rom 8:4).

Yeah and not only that, the entire population of the church who were spread out across thousands of miles and endured persecution and even martyrdom didn’t all the sudden agree to start preaching a different gospel with no evidence of any opposition throughout the entire history of the church.

 

[Dan1988]

So what about Ezekiel 18? The entire chapter repeatedly explains the same message over and over in detail. In Ezekiel 18 God specifically states that ALL SOULS ARE HIS. Then He says the exact same thing that He says in Ezekiel 33:11 in the context of ALL SOULS, NOT just the house of Israel. The context is that the soul of the father and the soul of the son belong to Him and the soul who sins will die. And if the father is righteous but the son is wicked the father will not be punished for the sins of the son and vice versa. And verse 23 says the exact same thing as Ezekiel 33:11.

“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18‬:‭23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

And in verse 29 “God’s elect” (the house of Israel) says…

“But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18‬:‭29‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Furthermore there were numerous Gentiles who also found favor with God in the Old Testament. Able, Enoch, Enoch, Lamech, Noah, Shem, Japheth, Job, Lot, Melchizedek, Abimelech, Hagar, Rahab, Nebuchadnezzar, Darius, I mean I could go on, none of these people were Jews. These people found favor with God because they humbled and subjected themselves to Him. So Ezekiel 33:11 obviously applied to these people as well. Nothing about finding favor with God had changed throughout the entire Old Testament.

It seems that you have not made the distinction between (National Israel, the blood relatives of Abraham) and (Spiritual Israel, the elect of God). These are not the same people, being related by blood, doesn't mean automatic salvation, as you are trying to imply here.

Spiritual Israel is the Church, the Church has always been and will always be made up of born again Christians. Abraham was a born again Christian, he placed his faith in the Lord Jesus for his salvation and so did Moses, David, and all of Gods people from the old testament.

The only difference between Abraham and myself, is he looked forward to the coming Saviour and I look back to the same Saviour for the forgiveness of my sins. Both of us were saved by the same Saviour, even though neit5her of us met Him, because were separated by thousands of years.

 

[Dan1988]

Then by all means please do explain why we are chosen according to God’s foreknowledge.

Gods omniscience (knowing all things) and omnipresence (being outside of time and space). He sees the whole of time, from the very begging to the end in the same moment. His was are past finding out, there are no words to describe Him or His ways, or His choices.

God has never told anyone why He does what He does, so I can't answer your question, because God has never ever revealed the answer. He has in fact hidden there things from us and I wouldn't dare ask Him to reveal the things He has hidden. I don't want to know anything about those things, they are none of my business, we can't even deal with the little He has revealed about Himself, let alone the big stuff.

 

[Dan1988]

I challenge you to quote where I ever said anything that remotely supports your accusation that I teach a saved by works salvation. If you can’t then I suggest you stop spreading lies about me.

Well you have always denied the "saved by grace" gospel. Every time I quote verse which prove that salvation is by grace, you never accept them, instead you ignore them and try to negate them by taking unrelated verses out of their intended context and use them to try and disprove the verses I quoted.

By doing this, you pit Gods Word against Gods Word, and make His Word contradict itself. I believe there are no contradictions in God Word, but I believe there are many "professing Christians", who's theology is full of contradictions and false doctrines.

 

[Dan1988]

Yet Genesis 6:5-6 completely escapes you, you can’t explain why God grieved in His heart because man was so wicked.

There's nothing to explain, the passage is self explanatory. Wouldn't you grieve, if your creation rebelled against you and obeyed Satan instead. I mean what's so hard to understand about that, wouldn't a husband be grieved if his wife went whoring after the enemy.

 

[Dan1988]

I challenge you to quote where I ever said anything that remotely supports your accusation that I teach a saved by works salvation. If you can’t then I suggest you stop spreading lies about me.

Also, it would be very helpful if you revealed which version of the gospel you actually believe.
You have never come clean and revealed it, so all I have to go by is what you have revealed and that is that salvation is based on obedience, abiding in Christ to the end and endless conditions which must be fulfilled in order to be saved at the end of your life.
But my Bible tells me that salvation was a done deal before the world was created. I showed you the verses but you reject them, so I'm confused.

 

[Dan1988]

I’m not an Arminian so yeah, it’s not surprising that I’ve never read any of his writings. But you’ve accused me of teaching a works based salvation which is just a flat out lie so why would I believe your accusations against Jacob Arminius without any actual quotes of him to support it?

I'm sure you're aware that the Church is divided into two camps. Yes there are 49,000 Christian denominations, but each of those denominations holds to one of the two gospel interpretations.

I take it you know what they are, if you don't know then you're not even qualified or equipped to enter into a debate over something which you are obviously clueless about.

 

[Dan1988]

God didn't abandon His church for 1500 years until some late comers came along to improve it while disagreeing with each other over doctrine at the same time.

That's because you don't fully understand the gospel. The new covenant was never, never, never intended as a reprieve from man's obligation to be righteous, with or without regard to the law. Rather, it's purpose is to forgive sin and give us the new hearts and spirits with which to overcome sin, with a rigtheousness apart from the law that the law and the prophets actually testify to (Rom 3:21) but could not accomplish in us, so that "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us [even if we've never heard the law], who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Rom 8:4).

Are you serious, I never mentioned the Church, and I have no idea why you think that Gnosticism is a part of the Body of Christ. Do you really believe that Christ would tolerate such corruption and filth in His Body, for one moment. Man you're deluded if you believe such nonsense.

The rest of your reply is a patchwork of incoherent unbiblical, Gnosticism. You start out claiming that the new covenant was never intended as a reprieve from mans obligation to be righteous, with or without regard to the law.

This is self defeating and contradictory, because if we are still obliged to be righteous then that brings us back under the "covenant of the law" and not the "covenant of grace". You can't mix the two covenants together, to create a new doctrine.

Look at what the Bible has to say about those who try to mix the covenants together >>>>

Philippians 3:2, which says, "Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision".

The "dogs" in this context refers to false teachers who were imposing Old Covenant requirements on new believers. The verse is a warning to be wary of those who try to mislead people with false teachings.

 

[Dan1988]

You ignore God's word while Rom 8:12-14 is competely consistent with it:

"He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:6-7

"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified." Rom 2:13

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

So the plain meaning of Rom 8:12-14 is obvious just going by how it reads. Again, cooperation. Salvation is directly connected to our nearness to God, a nearness which is the purpose of our faith. If we say we're near to Him but we sin, then we need to take a look at our opinion regarding our salvation. Good fruit, overcoming the deeds of the flesh, and love are all part and parcel of the same thing, and of being reconciled with God-and remaining in Him: John 15:5, Rom 8:12-14, and 1 John 3:6-8 here:

"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work."

If you think this is automatic, that it just happens to you because you've once turned to and entered fellowship with God as if you're now some kind of puppet who has no will of his own and cannot sin, then you need to live a little more of this life.

All of that is backward and opposite theology, it usurps Gods role in salvation and makes it yours and it gives God your role instead, (which is a dead zero).

Haven't you heard that you were born dead in your sin, and here you are trying to convince me that dead men can offer their filthy rags, in exchange for salvation. Please tell me what else can man offer God apart from his filthy rags, in exchange for salvation.

When is the last time you saw a dead man cooperating with God???

I sin everyday, but I will never be punished for any of them, because Jesus has paid for all of my past, present and future sins. Sin and death have no power over me, my salvation is guaranteed by God Himself, the only way I could lose my salvation would be if God lied, but I know God is not a liar.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It seems that you have not made the distinction between (National Israel, the blood relatives of Abraham) and (Spiritual Israel, the elect of God). These are not the same people, being related by blood, doesn't mean automatic salvation, as you are trying to imply here.

Spiritual Israel is the Church, the Church has always been and will always be made up of born again Christians. Abraham was a born again Christian, he placed his faith in the Lord Jesus for his salvation and so did Moses, David, and all of Gods people from the old testament.

The only difference between Abraham and myself, is he looked forward to the coming Saviour and I look back to the same Saviour for the forgiveness of my sins. Both of us were saved by the same Saviour, even though neit5her of us met Him, because were separated by thousands of years.

Except God repeatedly rebukes the Israelites who didn’t obey His commandments, marveling at their unbelief. Why is He rebuking them and marveling at their unbelief if His commandments weren’t for them and He has not enabled them to believe? That would be like marveling at someone not being able to breath underwater.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Gods omniscience (knowing all things) and omnipresence (being outside of time and space). He sees the whole of time, from the very begging to the end in the same moment. His was are past finding out, there are no words to describe Him or His ways, or His choices.

God has never told anyone why He does what He does, so I can't answer your question, because God has never ever revealed the answer. He has in fact hidden there things from us and I wouldn't dare ask Him to reveal the things He has hidden. I don't want to know anything about those things, they are none of my business, we can't even deal with the little He has revealed about Himself, let alone the big stuff.

I agree, I believe God exists in all time simultaneously. So you admit that you can’t explain why God is using foreknowledge in His choice of the elect. The Bible says several times that we must abide in Christ and endure to the end in order to be saved. You don’t think that this has anything to do with it because you believe that this is God’s doing and we have nothing to do with it. That’s why you can’t understand it. In my theology I have no problem explaining it because we must act in cooperation with God in order to become sons saved.

 

[d taylor]

-

​

Denominations must be a construct of satan, as God would not have brought forth a system that so divides and contradicts His Word from The Bible. Especially in the area of receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life, only by belief in Jesus for Eternal Life.

God gave a simple message to people, how to become a born again child of God by belief in Jesus. But people have managed to pollute this simple beautiful message, with all of their human constructed nonsense.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well you have always denied the "saved by grace" gospel. Every time I quote verse which prove that salvation is by grace, you never accept them, instead you ignore them and try to negate them by taking unrelated verses out of their intended context and use them to try and disprove the verses I quoted.

By doing this, you pit Gods Word against Gods Word, and make His Word contradict itself. I believe there are no contradictions in God Word, but I believe there are many "professing Christians", whose theology is full of contradictions and false doctrines.

I’m really struggling to understand how anyone could possibly come to the conclusion that when I quote scripture to refute your INTERPRETATION of scripture that somehow equates to me implying that the passages that I’m quoting contradict the passages that you’re quoting. Obviously all scripture is from God and has no contradictions. So you’re telling me that you had no idea this whole time that I was refuting your interpretation of the passages you’re quoting? Because if that’s the case then we have a pretty big problem here. The way I see it there’s only two ways someone could possibly come to that conclusion, either mental inability or intentional deceitfulness. Personally from what I’ve seen in your posts I don’t think it’s mental inability, your posts just don’t seem to reflect mental inability. No what you’re doing here is just another false accusation just like you’ve done countless times in this discussion where you accuse me of the most absurd accusation possible in an attempt to discredit me thru deception. That’s what I keep seeing over and over and over again. When you interpret scripture your interpretation must align with ALL SCRIPTURE otherwise it is flawed. That’s the whole purpose of me quoting scripture, to display the information given in other passages that your interpretation isn’t taking into account.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well you have always denied the "saved by grace" gospel. Every time I quote verse which prove that salvation is by grace, you never accept them, instead you ignore them and try to negate them by taking unrelated verses out of their intended context and use them to try and disprove the verses I quoted.

By doing this, you pit Gods Word against Gods Word, and make His Word contradict itself. I believe there are no contradictions in God Word, but I believe there are many "professing Christians", who's theology is full of contradictions and false doctrines.

Oh and for the record I’ve never in my entire life denied salvation by grace because in order to do that I would have to deny our need for Christ’s atonement.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There's nothing to explain, the passage is self explanatory. Wouldn't you grieve, if your creation rebelled against you and obeyed Satan instead. I mean what's so hard to understand about that, wouldn't a husband be grieved if his wife went whoring after the enemy.

Finally you admit that God doesn’t want them to rebel against Him. That’s all I’ve been trying to get you to acknowledge this whole time. Now that we’ve finally established that let’s go back to your post about God’s will.

Amen to that, His will, will be done on earth as it is in heaven, regardless of mans actions.

Ephesians 1:11 "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will".

Daniel 4:35 "He does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, 'What have you done?'"

Proverbs 19:21 "Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand".

Some would argue that man is free and autonomous, but the above verses confirm that God's plan ultimately prevails.

So you’re saying that we cannot act against God’s will. So why does God grieve about the disobedience of man if He has willed their disobedience and they are incapable of acting against His will?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Also, it would be very helpful if you revealed which version of the gospel you actually believe.
You have never come clean and revealed it, so all I have to go by is what you have revealed and that is that salvation is based on obedience, abiding in Christ to the end and endless conditions which must be fulfilled in order to be saved at the end of your life.
But my Bible tells me that salvation was a done deal before the world was created. I showed you the verses but you reject them, so I'm confused.

No in reality your Bible actually says both, unless you have some sort of Bible version that has the pages ripped out that contain the passages that specifically state that we must abide in Christ and endure to the end in order to be saved. Why are you pretending that those passages are not in your bible? This is what I’ve been talking about, you’re completely ignoring those passages as if they have value at all. You’re not incorporating that information into your theology which is why your theology doesn’t align with all scripture.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Also, it would be very helpful if you revealed which version of the gospel you actually believe.
You have never come clean and revealed it, so all I have to go by is what you have revealed and that is that salvation is based on obedience, abiding in Christ to the end and endless conditions which must be fulfilled in order to be saved at the end of your life.
But my Bible tells me that salvation was a done deal before the world was created. I showed you the verses but you reject them, so I'm confused.

I believe that we are saved by grace thru faith and that God has given us the ability to believe the gospel which is why Jesus told His apostles to preach it to all nations.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm sure you're aware that the Church is divided into two camps. Yes there are 49,000 Christian denominations, but each of those denominations holds to one of the two gospel interpretations.

I take it you know what they are, if you don't know then you're not even qualified or equipped to enter into a debate over something which you are obviously clueless about.

No you’re completed wrong about that, there are more than just two “camps” of Christianity. You obviously don’t know much about church history. There were three major denominations before the reformation. The Roman Catholics, The Eastern Orthodox Church, and the Oriental Orthodox Church.

 

[fhansen]

All of that is backward and opposite theology

No, that's Scripture. I didn't write those passages.

it usurps Gods role in salvation and makes it yours and it gives God your role instead, (which is a dead zero).

No, that's what we can do with God now, by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

"With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Matt 19:26.

"I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." Phil 4:13