Who then can be saved?

[fhansen]

Are you serious, I never mentioned the Church,

That's a problem in Christianity, rampant ignorance of history and the teachings of the early church. The church was all there was-it's how people learned the faith, that same faith that came down to my semi-literate grandmother from the foothills of the Italian Alps over a century ago. And she had one of the most simple, beautiful, deep and productive faiths I've ever known.

and I have no idea why you think that Gnosticism is a part of the Body of Christ.

And I never mentioned Gnosticism. In fact, that same church rejected gnostic writings while assembling the canon of the new testament which you possess today, The bible didn’t fall down from heaven in complete form- and the church knew and taught the gospel before a word of the new testament was even written.

The rest of your reply is a patchwork of incoherent unbiblical, Gnosticism. You start out claiming that the new covenant was never intended as a reprieve from mans obligation to be righteous, with or without regard to the law.

This is self defeating and contradictory, because if we are still obliged to be righteous then that brings us back under the "covenant of the law" and not the "covenant of grace". You can't mix the two covenants together, to create a new doctrine

Grace isn't just God's favor; it's His life in us. And if that doesn't mean "improvment" in us and our behavior, as if Jesus just came so we could remain in our sins, then Christianity would be a joke, a joke of satan's. Turn the question around. Can/should Christians expect to enter heaven if they were to persist in wanton, ergregious sin, aka lawlessness? A righteous person, with a righteousness made possible only by communion with God, doesn't even need to hear the law in order to obey His will, let alone be under the covenant of the law. Grace produces obedience, making you a slave to righteousness (Rom 6); it doesn't keep you in disobedience, disobedience being the basic, original sin of Adam that separated man from God to begin with! At least read the letters of John.

It should go without saying but it's OK to be obligated to be good, to love, to put it best. in the true Christian vernacular. The gospel, the new covenant, finally gives us the authentic way to achieve that- by virtue of reconciled union with God, the only Way. Here's some wisdom of the ages, properly understood:

"The law was given that grace might be sought; and grace was given that the law might be fulfilled." (Augustine, On the Spirit and the Letter)

 

[Dan1988]

Except God repeatedly rebukes the Israelites who didn’t obey His commandments, marveling at their unbelief. Why is He rebuking them and marveling at their unbelief if His commandments weren’t for them and He has not enabled them to believe? That would be like marveling at someone not being able to breath underwater.

I'm not sure why you chose to reject the bible doctrines of election and reprobation. I can only assume, it's because your denomination holds to the gospel of Jacob Arminius, instead of the gospel of the Lord Jesus.

Doctrine of election

• Basis: God's sovereign, gracious choice, not based on any foreseen merit, faith, or good works in the individual.
• Purpose: To save some people to display the glory of God's grace.
• Object: Chosen people are "in Christ" and are chosen for adoption into his family.
• Result: Those who are elected will be saved through God's effectual calling, regeneration, and other means of grace.

Doctrine of reprobation

• Basis: God's sovereign decision to pass over some, which is often described as a negative counterpart to election.
• Purpose: To manifest his justice and to highlight the grace of election in contrast to the condemnation of the reprobate.
• Object: Those who are not elected. Their punishment for their sins is a result of their own actions, which God has, in his sovereignty, decided to allow.
• Distinction: Some Reformed theologians distinguish between election and reprobation by noting that election is an active work of God to change a person's heart, while reprobation is God leaving individuals to their sinful state. God does not actively cause the sin of the reprobate; he simply does not work to create salvation in them

Romans 9:19-21
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

1 Peter 2:8 "They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do".

​

 

[Dan1988]

I agree, I believe God exists in all time simultaneously. So you admit that you can’t explain why God is using foreknowledge in His choice of the elect. The Bible says several times that we must abide in Christ and endure to the end in order to be saved. You don’t think that this has anything to do with it because you believe that this is God’s doing and we have nothing to do with it. That’s why you can’t understand it. In my theology I have no problem explaining it because we must act in cooperation with God in order to become sons saved.

In your theology, you have a big problem explaining it because it's false. I have been asking you to find a single verse of scripture to support your private opinion.

You claim that, "The Bible says several times that we must abide in Christ and endure to the end in order to be saved".
I have asked you where these verses are many times, you have consistently failed to provide any. That leaves me no choice other than to assume you have no biblical basis for your theology or your Arminian version of the gospel.

I can save you the time searching by confirming that no such verses exist. You have blindly followed your leader, shepherd, minister, pastor, priest or teacher. I'd like to suggest that you check your bible, to make sure that what your leader is teaching you is actually in the bible. I'm sure you would place more value on Gods Word then your leaders opinion.

 

[Dan1988]

I’m really struggling to understand how anyone could possibly come to the conclusion that when I quote scripture to refute your INTERPRETATION of scripture that somehow equates to me implying that the passages that I’m quoting contradict the passages that you’re quoting. Obviously all scripture is from God and has no contradictions. So you’re telling me that you had no idea this whole time that I was refuting your interpretation of the passages you’re quoting? Because if that’s the case then we have a pretty big problem here. The way I see it there’s only two ways someone could possibly come to that conclusion, either mental inability or intentional deceitfulness. Personally from what I’ve seen in your posts I don’t think it’s mental inability, your posts just don’t seem to reflect mental inability. No what you’re doing here is just another false accusation just like you’ve done countless times in this discussion where you accuse me of the most absurd accusation possible in an attempt to discredit me thru deception. That’s what I keep seeing over and over and over again. When you interpret scripture your interpretation must align with ALL SCRIPTURE otherwise it is flawed. That’s the whole purpose of me quoting scripture, to display the information given in other passages that your interpretation isn’t taking into account.

Why can't you accept what God has said. I have quoted simple verses, which are straight forward and clear. But you reject them and make up your own (unbiblical) doctrines, in an attempt to evade exposure.

I'm not talking about a one off, failure to understand a verse. It seems that you have rejected every single verse, which I have ever referred to. Instead of explaining why you reject the verses, you simply appeal to unrelated verses, which seem to support your views, when they are taken out of their intended context.

 

[Dan1988]

Oh and for the record I’ve never in my entire life denied salvation by grace because in order to do that I would have to deny our need for Christ’s atonement.

Oh', just for the record you have denied that salvation is by grace. When I quoted the verse which confirms that salvation is by grace, you rejected it and falsely claimed that salvation is by "your faith" instead. That was a direct rejection of Gods Word.

You're welcome to go back and see yourself contradicting yourself. Just scroll back and you will find it

 

[Dan1988]

Finally you admit that God doesn’t want them to rebel against Him. That’s all I’ve been trying to get you to acknowledge this whole time. Now that we’ve finally established that let’s go back to your post about God’s will.


So you’re saying that we cannot act against God’s will. So why does God grieve about the disobedience of man if He has willed their disobedience and they are incapable of acting against His will?

I have never claimed that we cannot act against Gods will. Quoting a verse which confirms that Godswill will be done, on earth as it is in heaven, doesn't mean that God created people to be evil and wicked.

Man was created good, and God was pleased with him. But man rebelled against God and chose to serve Satan instead. God is not the Autor of evil, I have already mentioned that a few times to you but you're still having difficulty accepting the fact.

If God allows sinners to sin for a time, it doesn't mean He created them to sin. It just means that He is fattening them up for the day of slaughter, so His will be done when He shows His wrath and hatred of sinners, while they are tormented in hell fire for all eternity.

 

[Dan1988]

No in reality your Bible actually says both, unless you have some sort of Bible version that has the pages ripped out that contain the passages that specifically state that we must abide in Christ and endure to the end in order to be saved. Why are you pretending that those passages are not in your bible? This is what I’ve been talking about, you’re completely ignoring those passages as if they have value at all. You’re not incorporating that information into your theology which is why your theology doesn’t align with all scripture.

You're still going on about these non existent verses. I'm starting to wonder what your purpose is in playing this silly game.

 

[Dan1988]

I believe that we are saved by grace thru faith and that God has given us the ability to believe the gospel which is why Jesus told His apostles to preach it to all nations.

Who are you referring to, when you say "God has given "us" the ability to believe the gospel. I assume your version of "us" includes the likes of, Judas Iscariot, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler & Co. Your in good company there.

Now for the Bible truth, the "us" in the Bible, means the elect of God. I can see you looking for verse to refute the Bible doctrine of "predestination to salvation". Good luck fining the non existent verses

 

[Dan1988]

No you’re completed wrong about that, there are more than just two “camps” of Christianity. You obviously don’t know much about church history. There were three major denominations before the reformation. The Roman Catholics, The Eastern Orthodox Church, and the Oriental Orthodox Church.

No, you misinterpreted what I clearly stated. I never claimed that there were only two "camps of Christianity". I simply said there are two opposing interpretations of the gospel.

All of the 49,000 Christian Denominations hold to one of these two interpretations.

There's a big problem with those three Denominations your refer to, "Roman Catholic", "Eastern Orthodox" and "Oriental Orthodoxy", all departed from the truth and formed their man made religions.

Here's what Gods Word reveals about your Denominations >>>>>

1 John 2:19, which reads: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us"

Your promoting this idea that the Body of Christ is divided into vehemently opposing Denominations, which teach mans wisdom, instead of Gods truth. God never intended His people to be enemies who kill each other, as we know happened when the Vatican declared war on Protestants and tens of thousands were butchered to death in the name of Christ.

I don't know why you support denominations which justify violence against their brothers in Christ. There is only One true Church, not 49,000 radically opposed denominations.

 

[Dan1988]

No, that's Scripture. I didn't write those passages.

No, that's what we can do with God now, by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

"With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Matt 19:26.

"I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." Phil 4:13

No, that's your interpretation of scripture. You read them through your denominational lens.

No, that's what God can do with us now. You can't do anything, unless God gives it to you.

 

[Dan1988]

That's a problem in Christianity, rampant ignorance of history and the teachings of the early church. The church was all there was-it's how people learned the faith, that same faith that came down to my semi-literate grandmother from the foothills of the Italian Alps over a century ago. And she had one of the most simple, beautiful, deep and productive faiths I've ever known.


And I never mentioned Gnosticism. In fact, that same church rejected gnostic writings while assembling the canon of the new testament which you possess today, The bible didn’t fall down from heaven in complete form- and the church knew and taught the gospel before a word of the new testament was even written.


Grace isn't just God's favor; it's His life in us. And if that doesn't mean "improvment" in us and our behavior, as if Jesus just came so we could remain in our sins, then Christianity would be a joke, a joke of satan's. Turn the question around. Can/should Christians expect to enter heaven if they were to persist in wanton, ergregious sin, aka lawlessness? A righteous person, with a righteousness made possible only by communion with God, doesn't even need to hear the law in order to obey His will, let alone be under the covenant of the law. Grace produces obedience, making you a slave to righteousness (Rom 6); it doesn't keep you in disobedience, disobedience being the basic, original sin of Adam that separated man from God to begin with! At least read the letters of John.

It should go without saying but it's OK to be obligated to be good, to love, to put it best. in the true Christian vernacular. The gospel, the new covenant, finally gives us the authentic way to achieve that- by virtue of reconciled union with God, the only Way. Here's some wisdom of the ages, properly understood:

"The law was given that grace might be sought; and grace was given that the law might be fulfilled." (Augustine, On the Spirit and the Letter)

So, your still holding on to the pragmatic "bi polar" version of the gospel, which tries to join the two mutually exclusive covenants together.
The obvious problem with that version of the gospel is, that they don't mix, just as oil and water, iron and clay ect. don't mix.

Correct me if I have mistaken you, but your version of the gospel is not the Biblical (saved by grace), nor is it the unbiblical (saved by works) version. But it is a mixture of both of these.

I can only assume that you have chosen to invent this new version of the gospel, as an alternative or (third option) to the other two which every singe one of the 49,000 Christian denominations hold to.

The big red flag with your new version of the gospel, is that nobody else has discovered it in the past 2000 years, so it makes you very special. You figured out something that nobody else could in all of history, that is a deal breaker in itself. My Pastor warned me about, those claiming to have found something mew in the bible.

The fact is there's only one gospel, and it's the same one which everyone has had for the past 2000 years.

 

[joechristianwarrior]

So, your still holding on to the pragmatic "bi polar" version of the gospel, which tries to join the two mutually exclusive covenants together.
The obvious problem with that version of the gospel is, that they don't mix, just as oil and water, iron and clay ect. don't mix.

Correct me if I have mistaken you, but your version of the gospel is not the Biblical (saved by grace), nor is it the unbiblical (saved by works) version. But it is a mixture of both of these.

I can only assume that you have chosen to invent this new version of the gospel, as an alternative or (third option) to the other two which every singe one of the 49,000 Christian denominations hold to.

The big red flag with your new version of the gospel, is that nobody else has discovered it in the past 2000 years, so it makes you very special. You figured out something that nobody else could in all of history, that is a deal breaker in itself. My Pastor warned me about, those claiming to have found something mew in the bible.

The fact is there's only one gospel, and it's the same one which everyone has had for the past 2000 years.

I was recently writing a video script on the Gospel, as if you ask ten different "Christians" to define it, you might just get ten different answers! The truth is that very few Gospel "formulas" actually quote the actual words of Jesus - most are just based off tradition and things they've heard from others who heard it from others, to the point where it becomes a religious version of Chinese whispers! I've tried to highlight this point in my most recent video about Jesus & social justice, after seeing so many "Christians" try to distance themselves from the need to help the poor, or the persecuted, or the underprivileged on the basis of spurious theological arguments such as justice in this life doesn't matter....

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm not sure why you chose to reject the bible doctrines of election and reprobation. I can only assume, it's because your denomination holds to the gospel of Jacob Arminius, instead of the gospel of the Lord Jesus.

Doctrine of election

• Basis: God's sovereign, gracious choice, not based on any foreseen merit, faith, or good works in the individual.
• Purpose: To save some people to display the glory of God's grace.
• Object: Chosen people are "in Christ" and are chosen for adoption into his family.
• Result: Those who are elected will be saved through God's effectual calling, regeneration, and other means of grace.

Doctrine of reprobation

• Basis: God's sovereign decision to pass over some, which is often described as a negative counterpart to election.
• Purpose: To manifest his justice and to highlight the grace of election in contrast to the condemnation of the reprobate.
• Object: Those who are not elected. Their punishment for their sins is a result of their own actions, which God has, in his sovereignty, decided to allow.
• Distinction: Some Reformed theologians distinguish between election and reprobation by noting that election is an active work of God to change a person's heart, while reprobation is God leaving individuals to their sinful state. God does not actively cause the sin of the reprobate; he simply does not work to create salvation in them

Romans 9:19-21​

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?​

​

1 Peter 2:8 "They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do".​

​

​

Don’t run from the discussion, explain why God is marveling at their unrepemtance. Or is it just another one of those unexplainable mysteries to you?

 

[BNR32FAN]

In your theology, you have a big problem explaining it because it's false. I have been asking you to find a single verse of scripture to support your private opinion.

You claim that, "The Bible says several times that we must abide in Christ and endure to the end in order to be saved".
I have asked you where these verses are many times, you have consistently failed to provide any. That leaves me no choice other than to assume you have no biblical basis for your theology or your Arminian version of the gospel.

I can save you the time searching by confirming that no such verses exist. You have blindly followed your leader, shepherd, minister, pastor, priest or teacher. I'd like to suggest that you check your bible, to make sure that what your leader is teaching you is actually in the bible. I'm sure you would place more value on Gods Word then your leaders opinion.

I apologize I just assumed that surely you must’ve read the gospel before.

“You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10‬:‭22‬ ‭NASB1995

“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24‬:‭12‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13‬:‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11‬:‭20‬-‭23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1‬:‭22‬-‭23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

And then of course there’s John 15:4-6 which you claim isn’t a commandment which is irrelevant because verse 6 is still a consequence, but I’m sure you won’t admit that either.

“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭4‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Why can't you accept what God has said. I have quoted simple verses, which are straight forward and clear. But you reject them and make up your own (unbiblical) doctrines, in an attempt to evade exposure.

I'm not talking about a one off, failure to understand a verse. It seems that you have rejected every single verse, which I have ever referred to. Instead of explaining why you reject the verses, you simply appeal to unrelated verses, which seem to support your views, when they are taken out of their intended context.

I’ve never rejected any passages you’ve quoted, I’ve only quoted scripture to point out your flawed interpretation of them and you just ignore them. You keep ignoring the fact that your interpretation must align with all scripture not just bits and pieces of it. That’s why I can explain any passage you quote but the passages I quote you can’t explain them and say they’re just an unexplainable mystery when they’re really not, you just refuse to accept them for what they actually state.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Oh', just for the record you have denied that salvation is by grace. When I quoted the verse which confirms that salvation is by grace, you rejected it and falsely claimed that salvation is by "your faith" instead. That was a direct rejection of Gods Word.

You're welcome to go back and see yourself contradicting yourself. Just scroll back and you will find it

And I quoted Jesus telling the woman YOUR FAITH HAS SAVED YOU and as always you completely ignore it. Faith precedes grace, Christ’s atonement is grace but we don’t receive it until we believe. So yes we are save by grace THRU FAITH which means that we must have faith to receive grace. That why Paul told the Galatians that they had been severed from Christ and had fallen from grace because they were trying to mix obedience to the law with faith.

“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So answer this question why did Jesus tell the woman that her faith has saved her?

“For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.” Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.” Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?” And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭7‬:‭47‬-‭50‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

I have never claimed that we cannot act against Gods will. Quoting a verse which confirms that Godswill will be done, on earth as it is in heaven, doesn't mean that God created people to be evil and wicked.

Man was created good, and God was pleased with him. But man rebelled against God and chose to serve Satan instead. God is not the Autor of evil, I have already mentioned that a few times to you but you're still having difficulty accepting the fact.

If God allows sinners to sin for a time, it doesn't mean He created them to sin. It just means that He is fattening them up for the day of slaughter, so His will be done when He shows His wrath and hatred of sinners, while they are tormented in hell fire for all eternity.

Oh so then someone who has come to Christ must me able to fall away then? So what happens to someone who does this?

 

[fhansen]

So, your still holding on to the pragmatic "bi polar" version of the gospel, which tries to join the two mutually exclusive covenants together.
The obvious problem with that version of the gospel is, that they don't mix, just as oil and water, iron and clay ect. don't mix.

Correct me if I have mistaken you, but your version of the gospel is not the Biblical (saved by grace), nor is it the unbiblical (saved by works) version. But it is a mixture of both of these.

I can only assume that you have chosen to invent this new version of the gospel, as an alternative or (third option) to the other two which every singe one of the 49,000 Christian denominations hold to.

The big red flag with your new version of the gospel, is that nobody else has discovered it in the past 2000 years, so it makes you very special. You figured out something that nobody else could in all of history, that is a deal breaker in itself. My Pastor warned me about, those claiming to have found something mew in the bible.

The fact is there's only one gospel, and it's the same one which everyone has had for the past 2000 years.

More ignorance. You haven’t immersed yourself much in the early fathers, have you, to find out what the early church actually believed? And I could even show you the source material for the church’s positions, my “new version of the gospel” laid down officially at council some 15 centuries ago! But, what the heck, it’s only truth.

 

[fhansen]

No, that's what God can do with us now. You can't do anything, unless God gives it to you.

Um, yes, that was the point. The only thing we can do is say “no”.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Who are you referring to, when you say "God has given "us" the ability to believe the gospel. I assume your version of "us" includes the likes of, Judas Iscariot, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler & Co. Your in good company there.

Now for the Bible truth, the "us" in the Bible, means the elect of God. I can see you looking for verse to refute the Bible doctrine of "predestination to salvation". Good luck fining the non existent verses

“Us” means everyone, not just the elect. That’s why you can’t explain why God is patient with the vessels of wrath. Romans 9:22 Romans 2:4-5 both show that God is patient with those who are refusing to repent. Why is He being patient? You don’t know, you can’t answer that question even though you’ve read the answer to that question numerous times before in 2 Peter 3:9. The answer is right there in front of you but your doctrine prevents you from seeing it.