Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?

[Montalban]

Paul was an Apostle. What He spoke and what He wrote would not contradict itself. For He spoke with the Holy Spirit and He wrote with the Holy Spirit. Same Spirit. Gods Spirit. No contadiction in God. For God is truth. So Paul spoke and wrote truth. Now Paul does not speak orally. He is not here..

I totally agree, what is spoken and what is written does not contradict.

I had asked you where does it have to be written down, and it seems you realise that it doesn't.

 

[Montalban]

Because He was not an Apostle Chosen by God. We are to follow the teachings of the Apostles. This is why we are to test the Spirits to see if they are indeed of God. Clements writings are just religious writings.

So when, after Judas died, and they chose a successor to him, Matthias' teachings carried less weight than did Paul, because Matthias was chosen by men and Paul was chosen by God?

Where does it say that Clement's writings were just religious writings?

Odd that you feel that you can be inspired by the Holy Spirit, but he can not? 'Cause how do you know his writings were not God inspired? If they were God inspired, why ignore them?

 

[Montalban]

There must be an explanation as to why God did not want the writings of Him in the scriptures lol.. We see who is named in the scriptures and who the Apostles are. Clemet is not one of them. The second letter of this man cannot even be proven to be his. So here we go again on and on and on with the circular reasoning.. This is why God has set His word as He has and what it is we are to listen to. For it is God who is sovereign and Watches over His word to Preform it.

Thank you for more examples of circular logic.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Have you looked into the many other names of the people of that era?

Yeah. I like to look up meaning of names and cites in the Bible. And most times they symbolize a nature.
The 7 chose of Acts is interesting and a lot of the froms of these greek words are used in Revelation.

Acts 6:4 and we to prayer, and to the ministration of the word, will give ourselves continually.' 5 And the thing was pleasing before all the multitude, and they did choose

Stephen/stefanon <4736> , a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, Stephen = "crowned"

and Philip/filippon <5376> , Philip = "lover of horses"

and Prochorus/procoron <4402> , Prochorus = "leader of the chorus"

and Nicanor/nikanora <3527> , Nicanor = "conqueror"

and Timon/timwna <5096> , Timon = "honourable"

and Parmenas/parmenan <3937>, Parmenas = "abiding"

and Nicolaus/nikolaon <3532>, a proselyte of Antioch/antiocea <491>, Nicolas = "victor of the people"

6 whom they did set before the apostles, and they, having prayed, laid on them [their] hands. 7 And the word of God did increase, and the number of the disciples did multiply in Jerusalem exceedingly; a great multitude also of the priests were obedient to the faith.

 

[Montalban]

So far MamaZ's argument that the Gospel is inspired, is because it is. Whereas Clement isn't, because it isn't.

 

[Anglian]

So far MamaZ's argument that the Gospel is inspired, is because it is. Whereas Clement isn't, because it isn't.

Dear Montalban,

What we're still waiting to hear is why she, and others who make the same argument, accept the Bible as edited by the Church rather than as written in some of the earliest books. Logically, since the Codex Alexandrinus is one of the earliest surviving manuscript copies, shouldn't she and others accept it rather than the one the Church edited Clement out of?

Either that, or the Codex was not inspired, whilst the councils of the Church Fathers were; either way, what is being accepted is the version of the NT decided upon by the Church out of its tradition and its inspiration.

Peace,

Anglian

 

[Montalban]

Anglian, apparently it is, because it is!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Anglian, apparently it is, because it is!

Did anyone see this article on CNN/Europe

LONDON, England (CNN) -- The oldest known surviving copy of the New Testament gets the modern touch Thursday when parts of it go online for the first time.

The full manuscript of the Codex Sinaiticus will be online a year from now.

The British Library plans to begin publishing the Codex Sinaiticus, a 4th century text handwritten in Greek, on its Web site. The Gospel of Mark and the Book of Psalms go online Thursday. The full manuscript is to be online in a year.
Translations of the Codex Sinaiticus have long been widely available, but publishing images of the manuscript online will let anyone see pages that, until now, have been viewed in detail mainly by academia.
As the Web site becomes operational, it will show photographs of each page of the text, with links to translations in English and German. There will also be a search function.
"It contains the earliest complete copy of the New Testament," said Scot McKendrick, the head of Western Manuscripts at the British Library.

 

[Anglian]

Dear LLOJ,

Yes, and there was a wonderful exhibition last year at the British Library where there were copies of the early codices on display.

You can see, quite clearly that the earlier codices we have are not consonant with the canon of the NT we now have.

Fact. The Scriptures are the inspired word of God.
But the Codex Sinaiticus has bound as Scripture Hermas and Barnabas; the Alexandrinus has 1 Clement in it.

Problem: Which Scriptura are actually inspired?

Answer: The books which the tradition of the Church decided were inspired - and the Church did not agree with the compilers of the earliest known complete codices, so the Church omitted 1 Clement, Hermas and Barnabas (but held they were edifying and should be read).

Further problem: Why do Sola Scriptura Protestants accept the book the Church edited but not the Church which edited it?

Answer: ????

Peace,

Anglian

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

ACCKKKK. I posted this on the wrong board LOL

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Further problem: Why do Sola Scriptura Protestants accept the book the Church edited but not the Church which edited it?

Answer: ????

Peace,

Anglian

Greetings Anglian. That depends on what you mean by "Church"

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7004034&page=46
What sets Catholics/Orthodox above Protestant churches?

 

[Anglian]

Dear LLOJ,

In this instance I mean those who decided that 1 Clement, Barnabas and Hermas were not to be included in the canon, even though they were already in accepted codices.

That would be the Church which pronounced at Nicaea and at other Councils, as described by Eusebius - another of those ECF chaps. You see what you miss by not reading them?

This is another example of why one should care what the ECFs had to say. If one ignores them, one has only the fuzziest idea of where the canon of Scripture came from.

Peace,

Anglian

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Dear LLOJ,

In this instance I mean those who decided that 1 Clement, Barnabas and Hermas were not to be included in the canon, even though they were already in accepted codices.

That would be the Church which pronounced at Nicaea and at other Councils, as described by Eusebius - another of those ECF chaps. You see what you miss by not reading them?

This is another example of why one should care what the ECFs had to say. If one ignores them, one has only the fuzziest idea of where the canon of Scripture came from.

Peace,

Anglian

Greetings Anglian. Now that we have the Canon, perhaps we need to "unfuzzy" it.

Colo 1:26 The Mystery having been hid from the ages and from the generations now yet was made manifest to the holy-ones of Him. 27 To-whom wills, the GOD, to make known any the riches of the glory of the Mystery, this, in the Nations which is Christ in ye the hope of glory.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh messenger, when-ever he may be being about to be trumpeting, also is finish the Mystery of the GOD, as He brings good-news to His bond-servants, the prophets.

 

[Anglian]

Dear LLOJ,

Indeed, and who best to 'unfuzzy' it than the Church which decided what it was in the first place? After all, if those guys were up to spotting that 1 Clement wasn't Apostolic, why assume the other things they thought weren't equally worth reading?

Peace,

Anglian

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Dear LLOJ,

Indeed, and who best to 'unfuzzy' it than the Church which decided what it was in the first place? After all, if those guys were up to spotting that 1 Clement wasn't Apostolic, why assume the other things they thought weren't equally worth reading?

Peace,

Anglian

Greetings Anglian. Am I not a member of the Church?

Isaiah 28:11 And with stammering/deriding lip and in-tongue, another He shall speak to the people, this.

Ezekiel 17:2 Son of adam, propound thou a riddle and speak thou a probverb unto house of Israel:

Luke 8:10 The yet He said, "To ye it has been given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of the GOD. To-those yet remaining, in parables. That looking no they may not be beholding, and hearing no they may be understanding".

 

[Anglian]

Greetings Anglian. Am I not a member of the Church?

Dear LLOJ,

On that, only the One Just Judge can decide. For my part, just seems sensible that if I accept the book which the Church decided upon, I accept its views on how it is best read; others, of course, think otherwise.

peace,

Anglian

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Dear LLOJ,
On that, only the One Just Judge can decide. For my part, just seems sensible that if I accept the book which the Church decided upon, I accept its views on how it is best read; others, of course, think otherwise.
peace,
Anglian

Greetings Anglian. I think we both agree on that

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7131625
2 Timothy 4:1 translation

2 Timothy 4:1 Thru-witnessing then I, before the GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, of the being-about to be judging living and dead, according as the appearance/manifestation of Him and the Kingdom of Him

Reve 11:18 And the nations are angered, and came Thy wrath, and the Time of the dead to be judged, and to give the wages toThy Bond-servants, the prophets, and to the Saints, and to those fearing Thy name, the small, and the great. And to blight the ones blighting the land

Reve 19:11 And I perceived the heaven having be opened and Lo! A horse, white and the One sitting on it being called Faithful and True and in justice He is judging and is battling.

 

[Anglian]

Dear LLOJ,

Indeed we do.

In terms of the OP, I think we may also have established that without those ECFs there would be no Scriptura for you to be solo with - so we should all care what they wrote - whether or not we read them.

Peace,

Anglian

 

[WarriorAngel]

Dear LLOJ,

Indeed we do.

In terms of the OP, I think we may also have established that without those ECFs there would be no Scriptura for you to be solo with - so we should all care what they wrote - whether or not we read them.

Peace,

Anglian

I strongly agree.


The greatest writings regarding the scriptures were by the ecf's during the time of canonizing them...as well as after or before.

We should NOT denigrate their writings - while upholding the Bible that these same men decided which was scriptures.

It makes no logical sense that they would 'know' which was scriptures, which was gnostic, and yet were unable to give an account of those same scriptures.

To me anyway, there is no logic in accepting what they deemed scriptures as they explained them - while suggesting the scriptures were accurate but they certainly could not explain them.

 

[simonthezealot]

Dear LLOJ,

Indeed we do.

In terms of the OP, I think we may also have established that without those ECFs there would be no Scriptura for you to be solo with - so we should all care what they wrote - whether or not we read them.

Peace,

Anglian

The chester beatty papyra predates Romes power grab it is from when the churches were operated by a multiplicity of elders... Prior to much of the ECF writings and it contained gospels acts and epistles...The earliest ecf's relied VERY heavily on scripture...SO your all wet on this one Anglian, the tiber swimmer.