Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?

[Anglian]

Prior to much of the ECF writings and it contained gospels acts and epistles...The earliest ecf's relied VERY heavily on scripture...SO your all wet on this one Anglian, the tiber swimmer.

Dear Simon,

Just as we were having a civilized discussion, there you go again (the bolded text); this contributes exactly what to anything?

As you well know, the Beatty papyri don't contain the text of the NT as we now have it, so you nicely emphasise my point - which is that without the Church deciding on a canon, we should not, ourselves, know what it should be.

Still, you have at least received the Scriptures of the NT as the Church canonised them, and that's what matters first. I'm also glad to see that in your signature you acknowledge the importance of the tradition of the Church Fathers. So, I guess you're joining those of us who would answer the OP question by saying that you too care what the ECFs say?

No one is saying they are Scripture (although parts of the early Church thought 1 Clement, Barnabas and Hermas were) - just that they are edifying reading.

Peace,

Anglian

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Still, you have at least received the Scriptures of the NT as the Church canonised them, and that's what matters first. I'm also glad to see that in your signature you acknowledge the importance of the tradition of the Church Fathers. So, I guess you're joining those of us who would answer the OP question by saying that you too care what the ECFs say?

Greeting Anglian. Whatdaya think of my Siggy.

 

[WarriorAngel]

You seem to know not the power of the HS...Whom used the jackass to speak truth.

WHICH prooves the point that if He can do this - He can certainly and absolutely keep truth intact thru Apostolic Succession and Tradition. Regardless of men's sins.

Lest we dont take the lesson that NOTHING can stop Him from working thru His choosen men.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

WHICH prooves the point that if He can do this - He can certainly and absolutely keep truth intact thru Apostolic Succession and Tradition. Regardless of men's sins.

Lest we dont take the lesson that NOTHING can stop Him from working thru His choosen men.

Well said!!!

[T-R] Matt 24:22 And if no was shortened the days, those, not ever was saved all flesh. Because of yet the elect-chosen/eklektouV <1588>, shall be being shortened the days, those.

[T-R] Reve 17:14 These with the lamb-kin shall be battling, and the lamb-kin shall be conquering them. That Lord of Lords He is, and King of Kings. And the-ones with Him called-ones/klhtoi <2822> and chosen-ones/eklektoi <1588> and faithful-ones

 

[Anglian]

Dear LLOJ,

Always good to see Satan squashed by the word of God!

Here's something for us all from St. Basil of Caesarea:

Of the beliefs and practices whether generally accepted or publicly enjoined which are preserved in the Church some we possess derived from written teaching; others we have received delivered to us "in a mystery" by the tradition of the apostles; and both of these in relation to true religion have the same force. And these no one will gainsay; — no one, at all events, who is even moderately versed in the institutions of the Church. For were we to attempt to reject such customs as have no written authority, on the ground that the importance they possess is small, we should unintentionally injure the Gospel in its very vitals.

Time will fail me if I attempt to recount the unwritten mysteries of the Church. Of the rest I say nothing; but of the very confession of our faith in Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, what is the written source? If it be granted that, as we are baptized, so also under the obligation to believe, we make our confession in like terms as our baptism, in accordance with the tradition of our baptism and in conformity with the principles of true religion, let our opponents grant us too the right to be as consistent in our ascription of glory as in our confession of faith. If they deprecate our doxology on the ground that it lacks written authority, let them give us the written evidence for the confession of our faith and the other matters which we have enumerated. While the unwritten traditions are so many, and their bearing on "the mystery of godliness" is so important, can they refuse to allow us a single word which has come down to us from the Fathers; — which we found, derived from untutored custom, abiding in unperverted churches; — a word for which the arguments are strong, and which contributes in no small degree to the completeness of the force of the mystery?

Or, put into plain modern English from an Orthodox source:

How can we know that the Church has preserved the Apostolic Tradition in its purity? The short answer is that God has preserved it in the Church because He has promised to do so. Christ said that He would build His Church and that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18). Christ Himself is the head of the Church (Ephesians 4:16), and the Church is His Body (Ephesians 1:22-23). If the Church lost the pure Apostolic Tradition, then the Truth would have to cease being the Truth — for the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth (I Timothy 3:15). The common Protestant conception of Church history, that the Church fell into apostasy from the time of Constantine until the Reformation certainly makes these and many other Scriptures meaningless.

Peace,

Anglian

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Dear LLOJ,

Always good to see Satan squashed by the word of God!

Here's something for us all from St. Basil of Caesarea:

Greetings Anglian. Why not read more of the Bible instead of the ECFs?. Once I harmonize and translate the Bible, then I just "might" read the ECFs opinions on it.

Did you gander at this thread btw?

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7262267

 

[Gwendolyn]

Well, if there is another big question that this thread raises, it is, "How do we know that it is the Holy Spirit that is inspiring is?"

Many Christians can feel that the Holy Spirit is leading them to believe certain things, and yet they can arrive at incredibly different conclusions. Does that mean that one person was mistaken, and one person was not? Does it mean that the Holy Spirit can lead us to conflicting understandings?

That probably deserves its own thread.

 

[Anglian]

Dear LLOJ,

Well, if you read what St. Basil is saying, you'll see that reading him - and - Scripture together helps.

Peace,

Anglian

 

[Yarddog]

Greetings Anglian. Why not read more of the Bible instead of the ECFs?.

Hello Lamb,
I'd say that nearly all Catholics and Orthodox read far more scripture than ECFs.

Once I harmonize and translate the Bible, then I just "might" read the ECFs opinions on it.

I think that you will be surprised at what you read. I'd suggest starting in the 1st century with Clement and then working forward.

Please don't start out with a prejudicial view but allow the Spirit of God to reveal the great faith these men had. I'm sure that you won't agree with all they say but you surely will come away with a different view on them.

God Bless,
Yarddog

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hello Lamb,
I'd say that nearly all Catholics and Orthodox read far more scripture than ECFs.

I think that you will be surprised at what you read. I'd suggest starting in the 1st century with Clement and then working forward.

Please don't start out with a prejudicial view but allow the Spirit of God to reveal the great faith these men had. I'm sure that you won't agree with all they say but you surely will come away with a different view on them.

God Bless,
Yarddog

Ok thanks. I believe I will just stay clear of the ECFs writings for now so I do not end up "confused"

And I heartily disagree with the Catholic's interpretation of Daniel/Revelation

 

[Yarddog]

Well, if there is another big question that this thread raises, it is, "How do we know that it is the Holy Spirit that is inspiring is?"

Many Christians can feel that the Holy Spirit is leading them to believe certain things, and yet they can arrive at incredibly different conclusions. Does that mean that one person was mistaken, and one person was not? Does it mean that the Holy Spirit can lead us to conflicting understandings?

That probably deserves its own thread.

Hello,
I would say that the Holy Spirit is not the one that is leading people into different understandings but it is our own spirit which does that. We all can read the scriptures and come up with our own belief in what they say.

Catholics trust in what their Church tells them, Orthodox christians trust their, Protestants trust theirs. For the most part, all of these agree in most items of faith but instead of focusing on the things we agree on, we argue over the ones we disagree on.

I think that a good place to see how God allows people to have different beliefs is in Romans 14.
1 Welcome anyone who is weak in faith, but not for disputes over opinions. 2 One person believes that one may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats must not despise the one who abstains, and the one who abstains must not pass judgment on the one who eats; for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on someone else's servant? Before his own master he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 (For) one person considers one day more important than another, while another person considers all days alike. Let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 Whoever observes the day, observes it for the Lord. Also whoever eats, eats for the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while whoever abstains, abstains for the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 None of us lives for oneself, and no one dies for oneself. 8 For if we live, we live for the Lord, and if we die, we die for the Lord; so then, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For this is why Christ died and came to life, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 Why then do you judge your brother? Or you, why do you look down on your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written: "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bend before me, and every tongue shall give praise to God." 12 So (then) each of us shall give an account of himself (to God). 13 Then let us no longer judge one another, but rather resolve never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; still, it is unclean for someone who thinks it unclean. 15 If your brother is being hurt by what you eat, your conduct is no longer in accord with love. Do not because of your food destroy him for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let your good be reviled. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of food and drink, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the holy Spirit; 18 whoever serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by others. 19 Let us then pursue what leads to peace and to building up one another. 20 For the sake of food, do not destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to become a stumbling block by eating; 21 it is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22 Keep the faith (that) you have to yourself in the presence of God; blessed is the one who does not condemn himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because this is not from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin. There was an item of faith that I was going to debate a minister over, at a religious class. He was giving his view on this item and I put my hand in the air the question him. Suddenly the Holy Spirit spoke and told me to put my hand down and listen. I did as the Spirit told me but after listening for a few minutes, I failed to see something that I could agree on.

I again put my hand up to question the man. Again the Holy Spirit spoke and told me to put my hand down and listen. I did as commanded again but this time there was something different. This time the Spirit allowed to hear this man's spirit. As I listened I could hear such an incredible amount of love pouring out for God. When I acknowledged this the Spirit then said, "And that is what matters most."

I knew that even though this the man may not have been correct on the item of faith, that God allowed it because of the love he had. The matter of his faith wasn't keeping him from doing what God commanded us to do, Love.

Hopefully people will stop thinking about where another person may be wrong and look for the Spirit of God. Where ever you find God's Spirit, you find someone that God has accepted as his child, and you see the Church.

God Bless,
Yarddog

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hopefully people will stop thinking about where another person may be wrong and look for the Spirit of God. Where ever you find God's Spirit, you find someone that God has accepted as his child, and you see the Church.

God Bless,
Yarddog

I am in the [c]atholic Church in the Spirit of God.

 

[MamaZ]

Well, if there is another big question that this thread raises, it is, "How do we know that it is the Holy Spirit that is inspiring is?"

Many Christians can feel that the Holy Spirit is leading them to believe certain things, and yet they can arrive at incredibly different conclusions. Does that mean that one person was mistaken, and one person was not? Does it mean that the Holy Spirit can lead us to conflicting understandings?

That probably deserves its own thread.

Actually we are all carnal beings that sometimes take a long time to grow in maturity in the Lord. It is a life time process of Reading and applying the scriptures to our lives.

 

[Montalban]

Hi. How come he wasn't made a pope instead?

Why don't you answer my question?

 

[Montalban]

Well, if there is another big question that this thread raises, it is, "How do we know that it is the Holy Spirit that is inspiring is?"

Many Christians can feel that the Holy Spirit is leading them to believe certain things, and yet they can arrive at incredibly different conclusions. Does that mean that one person was mistaken, and one person was not? Does it mean that the Holy Spirit can lead us to conflicting understandings?

That probably deserves its own thread.

The easy answer is we check what out inspiration is against an outside source; the church.

It's the only way, else our inspirational truth is relative only to ourselves.

 

[Montalban]

Actually we are all carnal beings that sometimes take a long time to grow in maturity in the Lord. It is a life time process of Reading and applying the scriptures to our lives.

I take it you're refusing to answer my questions because you have nothing more to give than circular logic

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Actually we are all carnal beings that sometimes take a long time to grow in maturity in the Lord. It is a life time process of Reading and applying the scriptures to our lives.

It can take that long just to learn the Catholic catechism

http://www.geoffrobinson.net/rc/catechism_vs_unamsanctum.html

 

[Ramon96]

It can take that long just to learn the Catholic catechism

http://www.geoffrobinson.net/rc/catechism_vs_unamsanctum.html

No, I read the Roman Catholic Catechism in about 3 days, but then again I am a fast reader

 

[Ramon96]

I take it you're refusing to answer my questions because you have nothing more to give than circular logic

Montalban it seems that no Protestant here want to answer the questions we put out. A while back I made a post address to Mamaz, but she did not reply to my post. I have ask Mamaz, LittlelambofJesus, Culluna, and others to reply to my post and also to give a solid Scripture proving Solo-Scriptural, but none have given any. Mamaz gave Scriptures that only teaches that the Bible is 100% inspired by God not that only Scriptures is the inspired work of God. The Canonization of the Holy Bible is one issue Mamaz and others have not addrees, which breaks there arguments into pieces.

I do not think any Protestant here want to have a discussion and answer the questions at hand, but just want to make a "1 or 2 sentence" remark and then run and come back, ignoring the posters questions, and make another "1 or 2 sentence" remark and then again run. That's the game Mamaz is playing.

The easy answer is we check what out inspiration is against an outside source; the church.

It's the only way, else our inspirational truth is relative only to ourselves.

Yes. We check it with the Church [just like we did to determine which books belong in Holy Bible], since Christ gave the authority to her to teach and guide, and not just sit back and say "Well I am right because I have the Holy Spirit" (a fallacy notion that have cause more damage than good because now we have 30,000 different Protestant sects all claiming to be "lead by the Spirit"). In reality, every Protestant is there own authority not Scriptures.

Blessings,
Ramon

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Montalban it seems that no Protestant here want to answer the questions we put out. A while back I made a post address to Mamaz, but she did not reply to my post. I have ask Mamaz, LittlelambofJesus, Culluna, and others to reply to my post and also to give a solid Scripture proving Solo-Scriptural, but none have given any

If I have said it once, I have said it a 1000 times, I appeal to the SCRIPTURES not the ECF's!!!! Case Closed and there is nothing the RCs or Orthodox can do to change that. Absolutely nothing. Comprende? Thank you and have a nice day.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7265785