Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[fhansen]

More works salvation, a denial of Grace !

You don't understand the role of grace. It's an ever available gift always aimed at transforming us into the nature of God, beings who love as He does to put it one way. For humans, that love is both a gift-and, necessarily, a choice-or else it's not truly love at at all. And we can fail at it, fail to love by failing to remain in Him, under His grace. So, yes, we're involved, from beginnimg to end even as the gift, the grace, comes only from Him. Grace prompts and gives us the ability to be who we were created to be- it does not force us to be it. And it's not some silly get-out-of-hell-free-card as long as I believe. It's not a reprieve from man's obligation to be rightoeous but rather it's the very means to that righteousness, accomplishing in us what the law could not-if we get on board with it, with Him, and remain there.

Then we'll produce the kind of fruit that separates the sheep from the goats in Matt 25, or does the good works and obeys the commandments in Rom 2:7 & 13 and Matt 19:17 in order to enter life, or become holy and put to death the deeds of the flesh in order to gain eternal life as per Rom 6:22 and 8:12-13, holiness without which we won't see the Lord according to Heb 12:14. And it does none of that out of a desire for self-gain but rather out of love for God and neigbor.

“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.” Basil of Cesarea, 4th century Christian

Again, as we understand the role of grace we understand that it, alone, can finally accomplish the true righteousness in us that God's been seeking to cultivate in man from the beginning, with our cooperation, not by our self-effort as if we possessed any righteousness apart from Him;

"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8

The above still holds true, as does John 15:5:
"Apart from Me you can do nothing."

Union with God is the key, to grace, to eternal life.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people." Jer 31:33-34

"I can do all thing through Him who strengthens me." Phil 4:13

 

[Brightfame52]

It does fit this definition though:
Jas:2:15-:
If a brother or sister be naked,
and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them,
Depart in peace,
be ye warmed and filled;
notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body;
what doth it profit?
Even so faith,
if it hath not works,
is dead,
being alone.

If you want to support your definition, why not use this reference as it is somebody being saved when their only works are an abomination to God?
Eze:36:16-24:
Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me,
saying,
Son of man,
when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land,
they defiled it by their own way and by their doings:
their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land,
and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
And I scattered them among the heathen,
and they were dispersed through the countries:
according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
And when they entered unto the heathen,
whither they went,
they profaned my holy name,
when they said to them,
These are the people of the LORD,
and are gone forth out of his land.
But I had pity for mine holy name,
which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen,
whither they went.
Therefore say unto the house of Israel,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
I do not this for your sakes,
O house of Israel,
but for mine holy name's sake,
which ye have profaned among the heathen,
whither ye went.
And I will sanctify my great name,
which was profaned among the heathen,
which ye have profaned in the midst of them;
and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD,
saith the Lord GOD,
when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
For I will take you from among the heathen,
and gather you out of all countries,
and will bring you into your own land.

De:4:26-28:
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day,
that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it;
ye shall not prolong your days upon it,
but shall utterly be destroyed.
And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations,
and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen,
whither the LORD shall lead you.
And there ye shall serve gods,
the work of men's hands,
wood and stone,
which neither see,
nor hear,
nor eat,
nor smell.

More works Justification !

 

[Brightfame52]

You don't understand the role of grace. It's an ever available gift always aimed at transforming us into the nature of God, beings who love as He does to put it one way. For humans, that love is both a gift-and, necessarily, a choice-or else it's not truly love at at all. And we can fail at it, fail to love by failing to remain in Him, under His grace. So, yes, we're involved, from beginnimg to end even as the gift, the grace, comes only from Him. Grace prompts and gives us the ability to be who we were created to be- it does not force us to be it. And it's not some silly get-out-of-hell-free-card as long as I believe. It's not a reprieve from man's obligation to be rightoeous but rather it's the very means to that righteousness, accomplishing in us what the law could not-if we get on board with it, with Him, and remain there.

Then we'll produce the kind of fruit that separates the sheep from the goats in Matt 25, or does the good works and obeys the commandments in Rom 2:7 & 13 and Matt 19:17 in order to enter life, or become holy and put to death the deeds of the flesh in order to gain eternal life as per Rom 6:22 and 8:12-13, holiness without which we won't see the Lord according to Heb 12:14. And it does none of that out of a desire for self-gain but rather out of love for God and neigbor.

“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.” Basil of Cesarea, 4th century Christian

Again, as we understand the role of grace we understand that it, alone, can finally accomplish the true righteousness in us that God's been seeking to cultivate in man from the beginning, with our cooperation, not by our self-effort as if we possessed any righteousness apart from Him;

"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8

The above still holds true, as does John 15:5:
"Apart from Me you can do nothing."

Union with God is the key, to grace, to eternal life.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people." Jer 31:33-34

"I can do all thing through Him who strengthens me." Phil 4:13

More man centered Justification

 

[fhansen]

More man centered Justification

Just Scripture

 

[Wayne Gabler]

More works Justification !

Not really. A 'brother' for a Gentile is any other Gentile, believer or not. A believer is anybody who fits this reference. If you read the 4 Gospels and promote the doubting Thomas story happened as written, then you are a Christian. Is this where you now promote that breading is 'work' of some kinds.

Faith without works covers the Jews that God blinded to the truth:

Ro:11:25-26:
For I would not,
brethren,
that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved:
as it is written,
There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer,
and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

No true faith, no works to lighten the yoke of the poor, yet all are in the Re:20:4 resurrection. Any Gentile doing any of 'these things' would not be alive for the 1,000 years, they would become somebody from the Re:20:5 list instead.

De:4:26-28:
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day,
that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it;
ye shall not prolong your days upon it,
but shall utterly be destroyed.
And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations,
and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen,
whither the LORD shall lead you.
And there ye shall serve gods,
the work of men's hands,
wood and stone,
which neither see,
nor hear,
nor eat,
nor smell.

Eze:36:16-23:
Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me,
saying,
Son of man,
when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land,
they defiled it by their own way and by their doings:
their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land,
and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
And I scattered them among the heathen,
and they were dispersed through the countries:
according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
And when they entered unto the heathen,
whither they went,
they profaned my holy name,
when they said to them,
These are the people of the LORD,
and are gone forth out of his land.
But I had pity for mine holy name,
which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen,
whither they went.
Therefore say unto the house of Israel,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
I do not this for your sakes,
O house of Israel,
but for mine holy name's sake,
which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
And I will sanctify my great name,
which was profaned among the heathen,
which ye have profaned in the midst of them;
and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD,
saith the Lord GOD,
when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

Eze:37:10-14:
So I prophesied as he commanded me,
and the breath came into them,
and they lived,
and stood up upon their feet,
an exceeding great army.
Then he said unto me,
Son of man,
these bones are the whole house of Israel:
behold,
they say,
Our bones are dried,
and our hope is lost:
we are cut off for our parts.
Therefore prophesy and say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold,
O my people,
I will open your graves,
and cause you to come up out of your graves,
and bring you into the land of Israel.
And ye shall know that I am the LORD,
when I have opened your graves,
O my people,
and brought you up out of your graves,
And shall put my spirit in you,
and ye shall live,
and I shall place you in your own land:
then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it,
and performed it,
saith the LORD.

Eze:39:25:
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD;
Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob,
and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel,
and will be jealous for my holy name;

They can be the worst sinners during their lives and not repent any of them, yet they are resurrected as part of the Re:20:4 resurrection. Is grace covering them or not?

A Gentile, such as the ones in Acts:10 believe the doubting Thomas story until the day they die after repenting their sins in private prayer until the same day they die, still needs grace to be alive for the 1,000 years?
I don't buy that concept at all. The reason such doctrine doesn't have verses posted is because there are none that say a believer who is doing the feeding demanded in Matt:25 are not saved by faith and works:

Lu:6:46:
And why call ye me,
Lord,
Lord,
and do not the things which I say?

M't:25:34-36:
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand,
Come,
ye blessed of my Father,
inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred,
and ye gave me meat:
I was thirsty,
and ye gave me drink:
I was a stranger,
and ye took me in:
Naked,
and ye clothed me:
I was sick,
and ye visited me:
I was in prison,
and ye came unto me.

 

[Brightfame52]

wayne G

Not really

Yes really.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

wayne G



Yes really.

Did you even read the part about the doubting Thomas part of my post? Obviously not, yet you want me to think of you as an educated person, rather than just another common Internet troll. I don't see that happening anytime soon based on the quality of you post.

Isa:28:8-10:
For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness,
so that there is no place clean.
Whom shall he teach knowledge?
and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
them that are weaned from the milk,
and drawn from the breasts.
For precept must be upon precept,
precept upon precept;
line upon line,
line upon line;
here a little,
and there a little:

 

[Brightfame52]

A great truth of the Justification of God's Elect is that God will not lay anything to their charge Rom 8:33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth 30

 

[Brightfame52]

Justification in Christ the Lord has been promised to only one people ,seed and not all without exception Isa 45:25

In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

 

[Brightfame52]

Rom 5:16 clearly indicates Justification by Grace before Faith notice:

And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

And not as what resulted through one man having sinned is the given-gift. For the judgment is from one trespass, resulting-in a verdict-of-condemnation; but the grace-gift is from many trespasses, resulting in a verdict-of-righteous. DLNT

16 And not as it was by one sin, so also is the gift. For judgment indeed was by one unto condemnation; but grace is of many offences, unto justification.

The backdrop of this Justification is after many sins, not faith or believing.

The word Justification here in Rom 5:16 is dikaiōma and means:

a judicial decision, sentence

1. of God
   1. either the favourable judgment by which he acquits man and declares them acceptable to Him

This Judicial decision of Justification is through the act of Jesus Christ alone ! 33

 

[Brightfame52]

Those Christ died for are Justified from sin before Faith because Faith is given as a result and an evidence that Christ put away their sins, hence Justifying them. We see this by Paul's words written to the Corinthians here 1 Cor 15:17

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

So the point is, since Christ was raised up, that shows you aren't in your sins, Christ having put them away before Gods law and Justice, therefore Faith is given to give realization of that before your mind and heart Heb 11:1.

See Jesus was raised again because of our Justification if He was delivered to Justice because of our sins Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

Since Christ was raised, our God given Faith isn't in vain, that we are are not in our sins ! Not being in our sins is connected and resultive to the fact that Christ was raised after having put our sins away , and not connected or resultive with our faith !

 

[throughfiierytrial]

What keeps God from justifying all the ungodly?
Yes, God justifies but they also "believed" and it does not say: Those that were justified then believed and this faith made them righteous and not God's justification made them righteous.

Agree...and faith is a gift of God.

 

[Brightfame52]

Writers comments on Gal 2:16

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

The verb “justify” is in the passive voice, thus, literally, it is “to be justified.” It occurs here for the first time in Paul’s epistles, and no less than three times in one verse (v. 16). Justification is not something we do. It is something done for us and given to us freely. It is the gracious act of God, whereby, on the basis solely of Christ’s accomplished mediatorial work, he declares the sinner just. The work was done by the decree of God in eternity (Rom. 8:29-30). Yes, all God’s elect were in the purpose of God justified from eternity, by the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. Our justification was obtained by Christ when he died at Calvary as our Substitute. He was delivered unto death by the sword of divine justice because of our sins imputed to him, and raised again by the glory of God because of our justification accomplished by his sacrifice (Rom. 4:25). Faith in Christ does not accomplish justification, but receives it as the free grace gift of God (Rom. 5:1, 10-11; 8:1, 30, 33; Tit. 3:7). Faith in Christ is not a condition upon which justification is granted, but one of the many, blessed fruits of justification accomplished. It is not our faith that justifies us, but Christ who is the Object of our faith.

Justification is a judicial act of God. It does not come as the result of man’s effort (Rom. 3:20, 28; Gal. 3:11; 5:4). It is not even the result of faith (Eph. 2:8). It took place when Christ satisfied the demands of the law as a Substitute for his elect (Rom. 3:24; 2 Cor. 5:21; Eph. 1:7). Man can never earn it. He only receives it by faith. And even the faith by which we receive it is the gift of God’s grace (Eph. 2:8). “Man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ.”https://www.pristinegrace.org/books...ortner/DF_Discovering Christ In Galatians.pdf 34

 

[Brightfame52]

.Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Such are justified by Christ, whose iniquities he bore; that is, suffered and satisfied for in his death: to this harmonize those writings of the apostle Paul , "He was delivered for our offences, and raised again for our justification," Rom. 4: 25

This is a legal fact while ungodly !

 

[Brightfame52]

Are men Justified before God while in a unregenerate , unbelieving, ungodly state ? The answer is yes, if they be Gods Elect, for scripture says Rom 8:33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Now are the Elect, Elect before God before they are regenerate and become believers ? Again Yes, its the same as saying Gods Sheep and His Sheep before they become believers. Remember Jesus said of His Sheep that had not yet believed Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep[elect] I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall[future] hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Also Paul writes that God Justified the Ungodly Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

John Gill writes on Rom 4:5

but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly: or that ungodly one: particular reference is had to Abraham, who in his state of unregeneracy was an ungodly person; as all God's elect are in a state of nature, and are such when God justifies them, being without a righteousness of their own; wherefore he imputes the righteousness of another, even that of his own Son, unto them: 34

 

[Brightfame52]

Rom 4:5 proves that the elect are in a state of Justification while in a state of ungodliness. Its comparable to the elect being reconciled to God while being enemies Rom 5:10

 

[Brightfame52]

God doesnt Justify the elect for their natural sinfulness, ungodliness, but because, Christ has died for them, and His Righteousness has been charged to their credit See 2 Cor 5:21. So they are legally righteous on a just ground, while they themselves are ungodly prior to conversion.

 

[Brightfame52]

Pay close attention to Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Now the object of the believers Faith, is He God that Justifieth the ungodly ! Now if ungodly, then of course unbelievers.

 

[Brightfame52]

Now who is it that God Justifies ? Rom 8:33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

He Justifieth His Elect. Not everyone without exception, but Justification by the God of the Bible is reserved for only a elect people.

Jer 50:20

In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.

Pardon is synonymous with Justification and reserve has todo with a remnant as in a remnant according to election f grace Rom 11:4-5

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 34

 

[Brightfame52]

Now even though God will only justify His Elect, yet He does it while they themselves are most ungodly . He is Justified before he is made a holy believer, but while ungodly, and dead in sin Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Eph 2:1,3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.