Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[Brightfame52]

Um...no. As has been continouuly maintained, only God can justify man. Only He can accomplish in us what the law iss powerless to do. Only He can reach down and make us new creations. Whether or not we desire to be new creations, adopted children of His, and remain that way, is the role we play. That should be obvious both in Scripture and experience in this life.

You continually teach justification by works. Thats a denial of grace !

 

[fhansen]

You continually teach justification by works. Thats a denial of grace !

Not at all. That last post of mine was another instance of my insisting on justification by grace alone. What you fail to acknolwedge is that man can resist grace. Like it or not, according to God's perfect wisdom and will grace does not totally overwhelm your choices and acts. God's purpose is to cultivate nonresistance to His grace in us, nonresistance to Him, IOW. This should be obvious reading Genesis through Revelation.

Evil would never have its day to begin if not for the gift of free will given to certain sentient, rational beings: men and angels. The only reason for moral evil (sin), IOW, is the abuse, by those beings, of that gift. Adam was the first to do this. We're here to learn to undo it, to return to the God whom man rather cavilierly dismissed in Eden as we turn away from the sin that resulted.

And even that is a process, not strictly a one-time event because until man loves God wholly he's not totally "sold out" to Him, not fully bonded to Him; he could still stray; he could still choose evil over good. That work of drawing nearer to God (with grace continously required) is to begin here in this life but presumably not fully completed until we meet Him "face to face" in the next life. God is not demanding absolute sinless perfection in this life, to put it another way, but is nonetheless requiring that we be on that path, that journey, overcoming sin, growing in holiness.

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

We have to take into account the whole counsel of Scripture in order to understand the role of both sides: God's part of the equation as well as our own. Again, God has no interest in puppets. He's like a good parent who seeks to guide His children into true righteousness rather than force it upon them. Creation makes little sense otherwise, in fact.

 

[Cassian]

I just asked what you believe about Justification of the ungodly, thats what this thread is about. Why post in a thread concerning that, and dont want to discuss it ?

I believe what the verse states, Christ is doing the justifying and the justifying is to God. That's why I asked you for the definitions, you don't seem to be using the correct meaning in the context in which it is used.
This text is just before the summary or restatement of that justification. Vs 18-19. It makes it very clear that Christ is reconciling all men giving all men the gift of life, Then you have another restatement. One's man's disobedience many were made sinners (that reinforces Rom 5:12 where all men were condemned to death through Adam.) so also one Man's obedience made many righteous.
Before any man can have a relationship with God in this world, this world needed to be reconciled, recapitulated, to be made right with God Christ corrected the consequences of what Adam did, which man could not do.
This context is not addressing the reconciling of believers which believers do by faith. A person reconciles himself to God by faith.

 

[Brightfame52]

Not at all. That last post of mine was another instance of my insisting on justification by grace alone. What you fail to acknolwedge is that man can resist grace. Like it or not, according to God's perfect wisdom and will grace does not totally overwhelm your choices and acts. God's purpose is to cultivate nonresistance to His grace in us, nonresistance to Him, IOW. This should be obvious reading Genesis through Revelation.

Evil would never have its day to begin if not for the gift of free will given to certain sentient, rational beings: men and angels. The only reason for moral evil (sin), IOW, is the abuse, by those beings, of that gift. Adam was the first to do this. We're here to learn to undo it, to return to the God whom man rather cavilierly dismissed in Eden as we turn away from the sin that resulted.

And even that is a process, not strictly a one-time event because until man loves God wholly he's not totally "sold out" to Him, not fully bonded to Him; he could still stray; he could still choose evil over good. That work of drawing nearer to God (with grace continously required) is to begin here in this life but presumably not fully completed until we meet Him "face to face" in the next life. God is not demanding absolute sinless perfection in this life, to put it another way, but is nonetheless requiring that we be on that path, that journey, overcoming sin, growing in holiness.

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

We have to take into account the whole counsel of Scripture in order to understand the role of both sides: God's part of the equation as well as our own. Again, God has no interest in puppets. He's like a good parent who seeks to guide His children into true righteousness rather than force it upon them. Creation makes little sense otherwise, in fact.

More works, man centered !

 

[Brightfame52]

I believe what the verse states, Christ is doing the justifying and the justifying is to God. That's why I asked you for the definitions, you don't seem to be using the correct meaning in the context in which it is used.
This text is just before the summary or restatement of that justification. Vs 18-19. It makes it very clear that Christ is reconciling all men giving all men the gift of life, Then you have another restatement. One's man's disobedience many were made sinners (that reinforces Rom 5:12 where all men were condemned to death through Adam.) so also one Man's obedience made many righteous.
Before any man can have a relationship with God in this world, this world needed to be reconciled, recapitulated, to be made right with God Christ corrected the consequences of what Adam did, which man could not do.
This context is not addressing the reconciling of believers which believers do by faith. A person reconciles himself to God by faith.

This is error, people who Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies by Jesus death not faith. Says so right here Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[fhansen]

More works, man centered !

No, works of grace, not works of the law. God centered. God orchestrates the whole thing. Man is simply asked to get on board. As man turns to Him in faith, justice/righteousness is already blossoming. That's what we know-anything beyond that is theological speculation.

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne." Rev 3:20-21

 

[Cassian]

This is error, people who Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies by Jesus death not faith. Says so right here Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[Cassian]

This is error, people who Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies by Jesus death not faith. Says so right here Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

First, Christ died for sinners. That is everyone. Then those same sinners were reconciled to God by Christ. Complete and very simple. The last phrase is referencing those that believe. Now that all men have been reconciled, those that believe shall be saved by his life. That life is now. Christ sitting on His throne in Heaven. Believers share in that life through the Eucharist by partaking of His Body and Blood.

 

[Brightfame52]

No, works of grace, not works of the law. God centered. God orchestrates the whole thing. Man is simply asked to get on board. As man turns to Him in faith, justice/righteousness is already blossoming. That's what we know-anything beyond that is theological speculation.

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne." Rev 3:20-21

More works, man centered salvation.

 

[fhansen]

More works, man centered salvation.

More refusal to hear and heed God's word.

 

[Brightfame52]

More refusal to hear and heed God's word.

Im telling you the Truth, the message you bring is works, works and more works.

 

[fhansen]

Im telling you the Truth, the message you bring is works, works and more works.

No, you don't fully understand the truth-just a sort of slice of it. The truth has been well understood and taught by the church since day one. God didn't lose it in the meanwhile.

 

[Brightfame52]

No, you don't fully understand the truth-just a sort of slice of it. The truth has been well understood and taught by the church since day one. God didn't lose it in the meanwhile.

Sorry if you are representing the church, you are saying the church teaches works because thats what you teach. Salvation conditioned on man

 

[fhansen]

Sorry if you are representing the church, you are saying the church teaches works because thats what you teach. Salvation conditioned on man

Misrepresenting the church? You've shown to apparently have no idea, or regard, for what it taught/teaches. The same for any part of Scripture that many seem to conflict with your personal views.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

'Ungodly' is usually a term that is applied to the fallen angels in Ge:6. Their names are erased from the Book of Life when they are sent to the fiery lake. All other flesh is alive and well in the new earth era. The 'other flesh' has to wait until there are pastures for them, they have to eat food to remain alive for eternity.

Jude:1:4:
For there are certain men crept in unawares,
who were before of old ordained to this condemnation,
ungodly men,
turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness,
and denying the only Lord God,
and our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Brightfame52]

Misrepresenting the church? You've shown to apparently have no idea, or regard, for what it taught/teaches. The same for any part of Scripture that many seem to conflict with your personal views.

Teaching salvation by works isnt biblical !

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Teaching salvation by works isnt biblical !

Faith is belief that the doubting story actually happened. Feeding the poor is a sign you understand what Jesus says in the Gospel.
Joh:20:26-29:
And after eight days again his disciples were within,
and Thomas with them:
then came Jesus,
the doors being shut,
and stood in the midst,
and said,
Peace be unto you.
Then saith he to Thomas,
Reach hither thy finger,
and behold my hands;
and reach hither thy hand,
and thrust it into my side:
and be not faithless, but believing.
And Thomas answered and said unto him,
My Lord and my God.
Jesus saith unto him,
Thomas,
because thou hast seen me,
thou hast believed:
blessed are they that have not seen,
and yet have believed.

 

[fhansen]

Teaching salvation by works isnt biblical !

Teaching salvation as a cooperative work between man and God as man turns to Him in faith and is freely justifed by Him is quite biblcal, We work out our salvation with the justice/righteousness/grace freely given. And it's also consistent with the histiorc understanding of the church and the ECFs. Only a modern perversion of the gospel holds a different perspective. You need to study more, and presume less. It's all about truth.

 

[Brightfame52]

Teaching salvation as a cooperative work between man and God as man turns to Him in faith and is freely justifed by Him is quite biblcal, We work out our salvation with the justice/righteousness/grace freely given. And it's also consistent with the histiorc understanding of the church and the ECFs. Only a modern perversion of the gospel holds a different perspective. You need to study more, and presume less. It's all about truth.

More works salvation, a denial of Grace !

 

[Wayne Gabler]

More works salvation, a denial of Grace !

It does fit this definition though:
Jas:2:15-:
If a brother or sister be naked,
and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them,
Depart in peace,
be ye warmed and filled;
notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body;
what doth it profit?
Even so faith,
if it hath not works,
is dead,
being alone.

If you want to support your definition, why not use this reference as it is somebody being saved when their only works are an abomination to God?
Eze:36:16-24:
Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me,
saying,
Son of man,
when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land,
they defiled it by their own way and by their doings:
their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land,
and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
And I scattered them among the heathen,
and they were dispersed through the countries:
according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
And when they entered unto the heathen,
whither they went,
they profaned my holy name,
when they said to them,
These are the people of the LORD,
and are gone forth out of his land.
But I had pity for mine holy name,
which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen,
whither they went.
Therefore say unto the house of Israel,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
I do not this for your sakes,
O house of Israel,
but for mine holy name's sake,
which ye have profaned among the heathen,
whither ye went.
And I will sanctify my great name,
which was profaned among the heathen,
which ye have profaned in the midst of them;
and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD,
saith the Lord GOD,
when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
For I will take you from among the heathen,
and gather you out of all countries,
and will bring you into your own land.

De:4:26-28:
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day,
that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it;
ye shall not prolong your days upon it,
but shall utterly be destroyed.
And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations,
and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen,
whither the LORD shall lead you.
And there ye shall serve gods,
the work of men's hands,
wood and stone,
which neither see,
nor hear,
nor eat,
nor smell.