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Who Justifieth the Ungodly

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Brightfame52, Oct 6, 2021.

  1. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Who Justifieth the Ungodly

    Rom 4:5

    But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Rom 5:6

    For when we [The elect] were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

    These verses tells us something about the elect ! First that by nature we are ungodly, children of wrath as others .Eph 2:3

    3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    Amen being children of wrath by nature as others is just another way of saying, that we were ungodly..

    But one of the Great Gospel doctrines is described in Rom 4:5 is that God justifieth the ungodly..

    Now , get this, The elect are Justified before God. by the obedience and righteousness of Jesus christ [Rom 5: 18-19] while we are dead in

    trespasses and sins, while we are by nature children of wrath even as others, and while by lifestyle, ungodly.
    While we the elect are in this very sinful condition, that we are Justified by Jesus Christ blood and clothed in His imputed righteousness, even though we dont know it at the Time, but God knows it , because He is the one who did it.

    Rom 8:33-34

    33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

    34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    You see, most religious teachers today think that Rom 8 :33 applies to post conversion, but it also applies to pre conversion, for God Justifieth the ungodly, before they are converted..

    Thats why its of grace Titus 3:7

    That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    Its by grace because of the sinful condition we are in by nature when we are Justified before God.
     
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  2. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    What keeps God from justifying all the ungodly?
    Yes, God justifies but they also "believed" and it does not say: Those that were justified then believed and this faith made them righteous and not God's justification made them righteous.
     
  3. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    All. . .without exception. . .were ungodly before their
    rebirth/faith/salvation/justification--pretty much one event.

    Justification comes only through faith, not before faith
    (Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28, Romans 4:5).

    That's the way it happens for all of them.

    No one was righteous, not one (Romans 3:10).
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2021
  4. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

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    Believing on God who justifies the ungodly, ( by faith) to be blessed by God to have our sins forgiven. ( by Jesus Christ on the cross)


    Belief on Jesus on the cross is believing in the declared righteousness of Christ, who is then just and the justifier of those who are ( enabled to be) a believer in Jesus, and we then have no boasting, as we have the law of faith.


    We then have hope ( when before we had no hope in the world) to not be ashamed before Christ at His coming, because the love of God is shed into us by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us ( if enabled by Christ to believe in His declared righteousness)

    We were without strength ( had no strength to believe nor to do the righteousness of the law) and were dead in sins ( this is weakness to be evil and in sinning)and when the time came Christ then died for the ungodly ( as all were ungodly is proven in Romans 3) and the love of Christ is then declared, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. This is being justified by His blood, to be saved from wrath through Him...





    Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
    7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

    Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
    27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.


    Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
    6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
    7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
    8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.




    Then we cannot be wrath, as Jesus saved us from wrath.

    Jesus quickens us ( by giving us the love of God by the Holy Ghost given unto us) from being dead in tresspasses and sins.

    That was the time past when they walk in the spirit of this world ( of error) in disobedience.

    Also our conversation in times past was in the lusts of the flesh, to fulfil the desires of the flesh and of the mind, which was being by nature, children of wrath..




    Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.



    Wrath is what we are freed from, freed from the law of sin and death.

    It is the law of the Spirit, of life in Jesus Christ that avoids condemnation ( wrath to come) by not walking after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Jesus condemned sin in our flesh, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, and they in the flesh do mind the things of the flesh, but they that are after the Spirit, the things of the Spirit, as carnal ( flesh) mind is death ( in the same sins) bu to be Spiritually minded is the life and peace of Christ..



    Romans 8:1 here is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
     
  5. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Justification by Faith

    Justification by Faith is in two senses, First and foremost Its Justification by the Faith / Faithfulness of Jesus Christ. For its by this Faith alone how The elect obtain Justification before God, by the Blood and obedience of Jesus Christ, for all whom He died in their place and stead..

    Rom 5:9,18-19

    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    Note, being Now Justified by His blood, not our Faith + His blood, that's a false Gospel, but by His blood..to whom is this True of ? Not only the roman believers, but to all the election of grace of all time..Thats who Justified by His blood..

    18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men[of all time] to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men [of all time] unto justification of life.

    19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    Again no mention of our Faith as a securing means of Justification unto Life or being made righteous, but solely the obedience and righteousness of One Jesus Christ..

    This constitutes the Faith / faithfulness of Jesus Christ. Therefore its written The Faith of Jesus Christ:

    Gal 2:16,20

    16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


    20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    In Faithfulness Jesus Christ Loved the elect and gave himself for them.

    Then in a secondary sense and premised on the First and foremost, the elect sinner is Justified consciously, by the regenerating work of the Holy Ghost, because of their previous justification by the work of Christ, they now have that revealed to them by God the Holy Ghost through the Gospel. But be careful not to confuse the receiving experientially the status of Justification before God [by the work of Christ] with the experiential aspect of conscience Justification by the work of the Holy Ghost upon and in the already Justified before God sinner.. 1 Cor 6:11

    11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    Now, though the work of the Holy Ghost is extremely Important and needed for the enjoyment of the work of Christ in the elects behalf, His blessed work should never be on the same level or above the Justifying work of the Son of God upon the cross. to do so leads to heresy and anti Christ teaching.

    For it was not the Work of the Holy Ghost to die in the place of elect sinners for 1 Cor 15:3

    3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

    This scripture teaches Christ died for our [the elect] sins, but not a word about the Holy Ghost dying for the sins of the elect.

    Isa 53:6

    6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him [Jesus Christ] the iniquity of us all.

    Here, the iniquities of the elect were laid upon him [Jesus Christ] and not the Holy Ghost..

    Rom 5: 9 declares Having been Justified [declared righteous] by the blood of Jesus Christ, but not a word about being Justified by the work of the Holy Ghost blood..

    Finally Jesus states that the Holy Ghost will not speak of Himself [ draw attention to Himself] but should Glorify Him..Jn 16:13-14

    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine [My accomplishment], and shall shew it unto you.

    He shall receive of the finished accomplished Justification of Gods elect through Jesus Christ and on their behalf, and shew [ reveal] it to them..

    To confuse or mix the Two types of Justification, Legal and experiential[conscious] is fatal. And will not go unpunished. And only those not taught by our Covenant God is at peril.
     
  6. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    bling
    His Sovereign Purpose and good pleasure.
     
  7. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    All without exception are ungodly, but God doesnt justify all without exception, and the ones He does Justify, He does it while they are still ungodly, thats the point of the thread.
     
  8. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    Would it show greater Love if He justified one more person?
     
  9. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    They were justified when through faith their sin debt was paid and they were saved from God's wrath (Romans 5:9). God then justifies them; i.e., declares them to be righteous because their guilt of sin has now been removed.

    They are not justified while they are still condemned and in unbelief, is my point. They are justified when their sin debt is paid, saving them from God's wrath on their guilt through faith.
    And the point I have addressed above.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2021
  10. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    A man is justified by faith (Romans 3:28).

    Justified freely by his grace. . .through faith by his blood (Romans 3:24-25).

    To the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. (Romans 4:5)

    This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ. (Romans 3:22)

     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2021
  11. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. I'm trying to wrap my head around the fact that apparently someone here believes some people are justified without faith.
     
  12. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Rom 5:1

    Being Justified by Faith !

    What does this mean ? For many deceivers are out in the world and have so misapplied this verse to make it say something that it really does not say or mean, and that is that one is saved or Justified before God because of their Faith, meaning their act of believing, that their act of believing is the causative reason of their Justification before God ! Let me say without hesitation that this teaching is false in that its against the True basis of Justification, and that namely is the Lord Jesus Christ. Against His accomplishment on the cross Its the blood of Jesus Christ and the grace of God that Justifies sinners, and i will prove this from scriptures. Also keep in mind, that Faith is a noun not a verb as in something we do, but its a substance. 9

    Rom 5:1

    1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

    Let me start off by saying, what Paul does not mean here, and that is, Paul is not teaching that one is Justified [before God] by or because of their act of Faith, since #1, Faith is a noun in this verse..and if we use the verb believing, then we are saying that God Justified because of something I did, which was believe..Thats works..

    And even more so, Paul cannot contradict his own teaching in other portions of Gods word as to the True source of Justification before God! First of all Paul teaches that the elect are Justified by the blood of Jesus Christ Rom 5:9a

    9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    Paul clearly teaches that Justification is by the blood of Jesus Christ..
     
  13. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    I can see you not paying attention to what Im posting.
     
  14. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    What's the 2 senses one is Justified according to what I posted with scripture ? See if you are paying attention to me.
     
  15. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    It's not necessary that I understand the two senses you present of justification, because the NT emphatically presents only one.

    However, it seems you are presenting a pre-conversion and a post-conversion justification by God, because of your misunderstanding of Romans 4:5, which I have explained.
     
  16. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    So Paul declares that the elect having been Justified by Christ blood, shall be delivered from the wrath to come..

    2ndly, Paul teaches that by the righteous act of one [ Christ] Justification comes upon all men, that is, all men in Him at the time of His righteous act. Observe Rom 5:18b

    18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

    This reads in exact contrast with the results of the one who made offence [ Adam] resulting in Gods condemnation and Judgment. For each of the heads brought about a Divine Judicial verdict on all those whom they represented. By the righteousness or righteous act of Jesus Christ, meaning His death, the free gift of Justification of life came upon [ not was offered or made available] but came upon all men [ in Christ at the time , his seed, as Adam had a seed in him] unto Justification of life..

    The Justification unto life by the right act of one, called down the free Gift of Justification of life..

    Thats why Paul wrote earlier in Rom 3:24

    24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    The redemption that is in Christ Jesus, again pointing to His redeeming blood and or death..

    So we know Paul did not mean in Rom 5:1 that the elect are Justified by their act of believing or Faith, because it again contradicts Paul's overall teaching of this subject, and would make void the accomplishment of the redeeming death and blood of Jesus Christ. And that's what satan and his messengers desire to do, to take the crown from Jesus head, and place it upon the head of man.
     
  17. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Then you are not teachable. Im going to still witness the Truth.
     
  18. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

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    Brightfame: "Rom 5:9,18-19
    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    Note, being Now Justified by His blood, not our Faith + His blood, that's a false Gospel, but by His blood..to whom is this True of ? Not only the roman believers, but to all the election of grace of all time..Thats who Justified by His blood."






    Being justified by His blood, to be saved from wrath, to stop being enemies ( enemies in our mind in wicked works ) to now be reconciled in the body of the flesh of Christ through His death, to present us holy, unblamable and unreprovable in His sight, by continuing in the faith grounded and settled, and not be moved away from the hope, as we were reconciled by His death and are saved to God by the life of Christ ( which is the Spirit of life giving us the way of being alive from the dead unto righteousness, as instruments of righteousness unto God...




    Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

    Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
    22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
    23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;




    Brightfame: "18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men[of all time] to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men [of all time] unto justification of life.

    19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    Again no mention of our Faith as a securing means of Justification unto Life or being made righteous, but solely the obedience and righteousness of One Jesus Christ."




    Again Brightfame, I point out not only your error, but all you are omitting on purpose.

    No wonder you missed Romans 5:10, and Colossians 1:21-23, and then pick up on Romans 5:18-19, and think you can get away somehow with saying our faith does not secure justification to life, or being made righteous, because you want the Gospel to be this way, to no have a way we must walk, and a way we must believe, that all in disobedience of Adam die, and all in obedience of Christ live. The people who debate with you not only cant answer you, they are just as empty going in blind circles with the blind into the ditch.
     
  19. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

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    Brightfame: "Rom 5:1
    1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

    Let me start off by saying, what Paul does not mean here, and that is, Paul is not teaching that one is Justified [before God] by or because of their act of Faith, since #1, Faith is a noun in this verse..and if we use the verb believing, then we are saying that God Justified because of something I did, which was believe..Thats works.."






    We access the grace of God through faith, and stand by that same faith, and rejoice in hope ( we are saved by hope which is faith and with patience wait for it. .the redemption of our body)

    Then the patience is worked in tribulation, until hope, and are not ashamed in that hope, as this is why the love of God is shed into our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given into us, and why we were without strength and without hope, and why Christ died for the ungodly ( to make them Godly).

    We were without hope, strangers from the covenants, but now were made near by the blood of Christ, and abolished in His flesh the law of commandments contained only in ordinances to make one new man in Himself...






    Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
    3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
    4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
    5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
    6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

    Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
    25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

    Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
     
  20. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Not by you anyway.
     
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