Who is Under the Law?

[LW97Nils]

Do you understand what the abstract English word "faith"means in the concrete language of Hebrew?

Hebrew? Sorry, I didn't read properly.

emunah: firmness, steadfastness, fidelity
Original Word: אֱמוּנָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: emunah
Phonetic Spelling: (em-oo-naw')
Definition: firmness, steadfastness, fidelity

 

[LW97Nils]

BobRyan said:

If you look at certain asian markets you find rats and a great many other "foolish" things on the menu. Lev 11 is a very wise statement by God to humans on what is food and one cannot argue that no humans eat rats or bats or cats or dogs - so deleting Lev 11 still leaves them off the list.

Not deleting. Simply not applying it to us. Just as Genesis 1:29 does not apply to us either, otherwise we could smoke weed.

As for rats - that's their choice, but those markets are rare in the west. I agree it's wrong, but again, it is about harms us and what not.

Now, in a spiritual sense, we can.
"Now, wherefore did Moses say, “You shall not eat the swine, nor the eagle, nor the hawk, nor the raven, nor any fish which is not possessed of scales?” Is there then not a command of God they should not eat [these things]? There is, but Moses spoke with a spiritual reference. For this reason he named the swine, as much as to say, “You shall not join yourself to men who resemble swine.” For when they live in pleasure, they forget their Lord; but when they come to want, they acknowledge the Lord. And [in like manner] the swine, when it has eaten, does not recognize its master; but when hungry it cries out, and on receiving food is quiet again. “Neither shall you eat,” says he “the eagle, nor the hawk, nor the kite, nor the raven.” “You shall not join yourself,” he means, “to such men as know not how to procure food for themselves by labor and sweat, but seize on that of others in their iniquity, and although wearing an aspect of simplicity, are on the watch to plunder others.” So these birds, while they sit idle, inquire how they may devour the flesh of others, proving themselves pests [to all] by their wickedness. “And you shall not eat,” he says, “the lamprey, or the polypus, or the cuttlefish.” He means, “You shall not join yourself or be like to such men as are ungodly to the end, and are condemned to death.” In like manner as those fishes, above accursed, float in the deep, not swimming [on the surface] like the rest, but make their abode in the mud which lies at the bottom." Barnabas (A.D. 70-130) ch.10

 

[HARK!]

Yup, the law killed us, It is why Christ bore the punishment for us. We are raised to newness of life. In a new covenant.....

The Torah doesn't kill anyone. Disobedience to the Torah is what kills.

The Torah and the renewed covenant are inseparable.


(CLV) Jer 31:33
For this is the covenant which I shall contract with the house of Israel after those days, averring is Yahweh: I will put My law within them, And I shall write it on their heart; I will become their Elohim, And they shall become My people.

YHWH doesn't lie.

 

[LW97Nils]

The Torah doesn't kill anyone. Disobedience to the Torah is what kills.

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4

 

[HARK!]

Hebrew? Sorry, I didn't read properly.

emunah: firmness, steadfastness, fidelity
Original Word: אֱמוּנָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: emunah
Phonetic Spelling: (em-oo-naw')
Definition: firmness, steadfastness, fidelity

Very good.

It literally means firmness. Moses held his hands firm.

The root of the word emunah is aman (H539). Aman means firm.

It's used in Isaiah to describe something being nailed in place.

Faithfulness world be a better translation of the word.

Once we adhere to the Torah faithfully we are the master over transgression of the Torah. Yahshua's entire ministry was built on the message of repentance and obedience to the Torah.

 

[LW97Nils]

Faithfulness world be a better translation of the word.

Very few speak Hebrew.

 

[LW97Nils]

Once we adhere to the Torah faithfully we are the master over transgression of the Torah. Yahshua's entire ministry was built on the message of repentance and obedience to the Torah.

The only problem is, not all can be applied to the NT. The feasts cannot. Neither can the Nazarite vow.

 

[HARK!]

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4

What does this have to do with what I posted?

Is Paul saying that by keeping YHWH's law faithfully, that we fall from grace? Of course not!

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

 

[HARK!]

Very few speak Hebrew.

That is unfortunate. It makes it much easier to understand what YHWH is trying to convey, rather than relying on the doctrines of men.

 

[LW97Nils]

What does this have to do with what I posted?

Is Paul saying that by keeping YHWH's law faithfully, that we fall from grace? Of course not!

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

I am not preaching anything else. The moral law. Not the ceremonical one.

 

[HARK!]

I am not preaching anything else. The moral law. Not the ceremonical one.

YHWH nor Yahshua made no such distinction.

 

[HARK!]

The only problem is, not all can be applied to the NT. The feasts cannot. Neither can the Nazarite vow.

What in the world are you talking about?

 

[BobRyan]

Another evidence. Never did i say such thing, I only listed those two as examples.

No, I am not. See also Deuteronomy 14:8 - an abomination unto you. Not unto the LORD, thy God.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

Faith is the substance of things hoped for ... and still even you admit it is a sin to take God's name in vain - so it is not canceling the Word.

There is no such thing in scripture as something that is an abomination - but not to God. Nothing of that sort exists in the text.

Lev 11:​

2 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying, ‘These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth: 3 Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves and chewing the cud—that you may eat.​

That alone is what leaves rats, cats, dogs and bats off the menu when it comes to land animals that are not birds or insects.


What follows in vs 4-8 are just examples of what is NOT outside of the vs 2-3 rule for 'what is food'

Lev 11:​

4 Nevertheless these you shall not eat among those that chew the cud or those that have cloven hooves: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; 5 the rock hyrax, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; 6 the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; 7 and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. 8 Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. They are unclean to you.​

​

9 ‘These you may eat of all that are in the water:...​

​

46 ‘This is the law of the animals and the birds and every living creature that moves in the waters, and of every creature that creeps on the earth, 47 to distinguish between the unclean and the clean, and between the animal that may be eaten and the animal that may not be eaten.’ ”​

 

[BobRyan]

As for rats - that's their choice, but those markets are rare in the west. I agree it's wrong, but again, it is about harms us and what not.

I agree that the animals God crosses off the list by the rules He gives for what is food - eliminates those animals that cause harm to the body when eaten.

So then dogs, cats, rats, bats,...

And of course we could add (if you really want to go there)

Filter feeder fish - that filter impurities out of the water and have 10x to 1000x times more concentration of toxins in their flesh than the water around them (shell fish for example)

Meat that has Trichina worms --
Trichinella is the genus of parasitic roundworms of the phylum Nematoda that cause trichinosis (also known as trichinellosis).
so then "pork" for example.

 

[BobRyan]

The only problem is, not all can be applied to the NT. The feasts cannot. Neither can the Nazarite vow.

I have a suggestion.

This thread is about being "under the law" which almost 100% of the people on this area of the forum - regard as a discussion about " being under the TEN Commandments" / "or not".

I think that you and those responding to your posts - are all actually in agreement to the issue with regard to the TEN that they apply still to this very day to Christians.

So It might be better to have a separate thread on Lev 11 or Clean/vs/unclean.

========================

And maybe another thread for feasts when it comes to Rom 14.

It looks to me like Rom 14 allows one man to "observe one day above another" (a reference to the Bible approved holy days...feasts - of Lev we)

While "another man observes them all" Rom 14

And at the same time in Gal 4:6-9 it condemns even one observance of a pagan holy day by a Christian.

 

[BobRyan]

Now, in a spiritual sense, we can.
"Now, wherefore did Moses say, “You shall not eat the swine, nor the eagle, nor the hawk, nor the raven, nor any fish which is not possessed of scales?” Is there then not a command of God they should not eat [these things]? There is, but Moses spoke with a spiritual reference. For this reason he named the swine, as much as to say, “You shall not join yourself to men who resemble swine.” For when they live in pleasure, they forget their Lord; but when they come to want, they acknowledge the Lord. And [in like manner] the swine, when it has eaten, does not recognize its master; but when hungry it cries out, and on receiving food is quiet again. “Neither shall you eat,” says he “the eagle, nor the hawk, nor the kite, nor the raven.” “You shall not join yourself,” he means, “to such men as know not how to procure food for themselves by labor and sweat, but seize on that of others in their iniquity, and although wearing an aspect of simplicity, are on the watch to plunder others.” So these birds, while they sit idle, inquire how they may devour the flesh of others, proving themselves pests [to all] by their wickedness. “And you shall not eat,” he says, “the lamprey, or the polypus, or the cuttlefish.” He means, “You shall not join yourself or be like to such men as are ungodly to the end, and are condemned to death.” In like manner as those fishes, above accursed, float in the deep, not swimming [on the surface] like the rest, but make their abode in the mud which lies at the bottom." Barnabas (A.D. 70-130) ch.10

Are you quoting from Barnabas because you think that Paul's companion Barnabas wrote it or because you think it is scripture??

 

[HARK!]

I have a suggestion.

This thread is about being "under the law" which almost 100% of the people on this area of the forum - regard as being under the TEN Commandments.

I think that you and those responding to your posts - are all actually in agreement to the issue with regard to the TEN.

It might be better to have a separate thread on Lev 11 or Clean/vs/unclean.

Actually it would appear that the majority of those participating in this thread believe that transgression of the Torah places us "under the law." I concur.

Leviticus 11 is rich with Torah.

 

[BobRyan]

Yup, the law killed us, It is why Christ bore the punishment for us. We are raised to newness of life. In a new covenant.....

Yep --

And here is the New Covenant in scripture (which is what people who reference it -- seldom read)

Jer 31:31-34
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord: “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.”

Quoted verbatim in Heb 8:6-12 -- unchanged in the NT

 

[BobRyan]

Actually it would appear that the majority of those participating in this thread believe that transgression of the Torah places us "under the law." I concur.

View attachment 329276

Leviticus 11 is rich with Torah.

Agreed - but on this "Sabbath and the Law" forum - almost everyone posting against the Sabbath is arguing about the TEN. So then a thread on "under the Law" is going to bring them to the point of arguing that Christians are not obligated to regard all TEN as the Law of God for Christians in their POV.

This shows up on page one of this thread as well in its focus on the moral law of TEN -

LoricaLady brings in some good facts about OT food Laws in Acts 15 also held to apply to both Jews and gentiles -- nice!

But most of the discussion at the start deals with the TEN and whether Christians are to consider them as applicable.

If I am not mistaken @LW97Nils already agrees that all ten apply

 

[HARK!]

And maybe another thread for feasts when it comes to Rom 14.

It looks to me like Rom 14 allows one man to "observe one day above another" (a reference to the Bible approved holy days...feasts - of Lev we)

No more than anything else in Leviticus 23, starting with the Sabbath.

I do however have a thread on this subject here: Since When is the Sabbath a Fast?