Who is Under the Law?

[HARK!]

Ezra 5:5
"But the eye of their God was on the elders of the Jews, and they did not stop them until a report could come to Darius, and then a written reply be returned concerning it.

Ezra 5:1 provides clearer context.


(CLV) Ezr 5:1
Then the prophets, Haggai the prophet and Zechariah son of Iddo, prophesied onto the Judeans (יהודיא Yahudia) in Judah (בִיהוּד B'Yahud or In Yahud) and in Jerusalem in the Name of Eloah of Israel Who was over them.

It would appear that this passage refers to residents of Yahud.

Nehemiah 4:12

"When the Jews who lived near them came and told us ten times, “They will come up against us from every place where you may turn,”

Here again, the context is residents of a region.

Matthew 2:2

“Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him.”

(CLV) Mt 2:2
saying, "Where is He Who is brought forth King of the Jews (ιουδαιων ioudaiOn JUDA-ans)? For we perceived His star in the East, and we came to worship Him."

In case you didn't know, the letter "J" didn't exist until a few hundred years ago.

I see a huge similarity between the Hebrew (יהודיא) Y-AH-U-D-I-A and the Greek I-O-U-D-AI-ON

So who do you suppose the verse speaks of?

The King of a region?

The King of a tribe that would exclude the tribe of Dan, and maybe even Benjamin?

The King of the Yahudim (Yah's people)?

Something else? I could carry this list on; but I suppose that this verse speaks of a King of a region.

 

[LW97Nils]

Judas was a disciple of Yahshua. Just sayin'.

But Barnabas was not greedy. Judas was.

 

[LW97Nils]

The assembly (Church) is the nation of Israel according to Paul.

Ephesians 2

11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations (Gentiles) in flesh - who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands -"

Not anymore!

12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world."

Not anymore! Hmmm...covenants, plural.

13 Yet now, in Christ Jesus, you, who once are far off, are become near by the blood of Christ."

Citizens of Israel.


(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

Yes, we agree. However, we agree on the definition of "nation".

 

[expos4ever]

So where did he tell anyone about this "other moral standard?"

John 16:7-8 But I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I am leaving; for if I do not leave, the [e]Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world regarding sin, and righteousness, and judgment

I Challenge anyone to give an account of How this teaching does not force to conclude that the Holy Spirit Will be a source of moral truth, at least for nonbelievers in this particular context.

Romans 8:4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk [a]according to the flesh but [b]according to the Spirit

Again, how is this not a clear indication that the Holy Spirit guides the Christian, in this instance, in terms of their behavior?

I doubt that I can find it; because I can't wrap my mind around the notion that righteous judgement can be built on a double standard.

No idea what your point is here. How could the presence of the indwelling Spirit, providing moral guidance, be in any sense a "double standard" to anything?

 

[expos4ever]

The Torah doesn't kill anyone....

Paul has a different take:

But if the ministry of death, engraved in letters on stones, came [c]with glory so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

Lest you try to suggest that Paul is talking about disobedience to the Law here, and although that does make sense in context, we also have this:

But sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me [m]coveting of every kind; for apart [n]from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart [o]from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin came to life, and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was [p]to result in life, proved [q]to result in death for me;

Unless one is going to do great violence to the meaning of words and the clear logic of this argument, there is no escaping the stark conclusion Although the Law is not the prime culprit - our sinful nature is - there is no mistaking that Paul is saying the Law had a facilitating role in bringing about Paul's demise.

 

[expos4ever]

SHABBAT (Sabbath)

" Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant." (Exodus 31:16)

First, let's look at the word translated as "perpetual" here. It is the Hebrew word "owlam". From Strongs:

owlam: long duration, antiquity, futurity

There is no necessity to translate this word as forever.

PESACH (Passover)

“And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to YHWH throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance FOREVER.” (Exodus 12:14)...........“And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance FOREVER.” (Exodus 12:17)

owlam, yet again. No necessity to interpret this as "forever"

BIKKURIM (Feast of First Fruits)

You shall eat neither bread nor parched grain nor fresh grain until the same day that you have brought an offering to your God; it shall be a statute FOREVER throughout your generations in all your dwellings (Leviticus 23:14)

SHAVUOT (Feast of Weeks)

“And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute FOREVER in all your dwellings throughout your generations.” (Leviticus 23:21)

YOM TERUAH (Feast of Trumpets)

The sons of Aaron, the priests, shall blow the trumpets; and these shall be to you as an ordinance FOREVER throughout your generations. (Numbers 10:8)

YOM KIPPUR (Day of Atonement)

Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute FOREVER throughout your generations in all your dwellings. (Leviticus 23:31)

FEAST OF TABERNACLES (Booths / Sukkot)

And ye shall keep it a feast unto YHWH seven days in the year. It shall be a statute FOREVER in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.(Leviticus 23:41)

Again, all "owlam"

Sure, these Hebrew texts have been translated as "forever" or "everlasting". But that was a translation decision: an equally valid translation would have been "long time".

 

[HARK!]

First, let's look at the word translated as "perpetual" here. It is the Hebrew word "owlam". From Strongs:

owlam: long duration, antiquity, futurity

There is no necessity to translate this word as forever.

owlam, yet again. No necessity to interpret this as "forever"

Again, all "owlam"

Sure, these Hebrew texts have been translated as "forever" or "everlasting". But that was a translation decision: an equally valid translation would have been "long time".

Are you aware that Strong's isn't a dictionary? Strong simply cataloged how King James and his boys translated the Hebrew and Greek scriptures. Do you see the irony of using Strong's in an attempt to refute the King James translation?

I do, and I have peace of mind that I won't drown in a world wide deluge.

Genesis 9:12
King James Version
​

12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:


Some insist that the "Old Covenant" is only for the "Jews." Was Noah a "Jew?"

If you lived in the time of Noah; do you think that you could be saved by building your own ark, outside of YHWH's specific direction (Torah)?

 

[HARK!]

Paul has a different take:

But if the ministry of death, engraved in letters on stones, came [c]with glory so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

Lest you try to suggest that Paul is talking about disobedience to the Law here, and although that does make sense in context, we also have this:

But sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me [m]coveting of every kind; for apart [n]from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart [o]from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin came to life, and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was [p]to result in life, proved [q]to result in death for me;

Unless one is going to do great violence to the meaning of words and the clear logic of this argument, there is no escaping the stark conclusion Although the Law is not the prime culprit - our sinful nature is - there is no mistaking that Paul is saying the Law had a facilitating role in bringing about Paul's demise.

I have some good news. Repentance will remedy the curse of death for rebellion against YHWH. Repentance was the primary message of Yahshua's ministry.

 

[HARK!]

No idea what your point is here. How could the presence of the indwelling Spirit, providing moral guidance, be in any sense a "double standard" to anything?

I really don't belive that the Rauach Ha'Kodesh would lead us in a standard that would dismiss YHWH's direction (Torah).

 

[expos4ever]

Are you aware that Strong's isn't a dictionary? Strong simply cataloged how King James and his boys translated the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.

You are suggesting that the word "owlam" as defined in Strong's is not entirely correct. What is your evidence that the Strong's definition is misleading? To be more precise, what is the evidence that "long duration" is not an allowable meaning of "owlam"?

Here is Job 22:15 in the NASB:

Will you keep to the ancient path
Which wicked people have walked,

The word rendered as "ancient" here is "owlam". Clearly, in context, "owlam" does not imply eternality in this case at least.

 

[expos4ever]

I have some good news. Repentance will remedy the curse of death for rebellion against YHWH. Repentance was the primary message of Yahshua's ministry.

Ok I agree but that is not the point. You had stated

"The Torah doesn't kill anyone...."

I showed from scripture that, while not the prime culprit, Paul believes the Law certainly did play a role in Paul "dying":

But sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me [m]coveting of every kind; for apart [n]from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart [o]from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin came to life, and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was [p]to result in life, proved [q]to result in death for me;

 

[expos4ever]

I really don't belive that the Rauach Ha'Kodesh would lead us in a standard that would dismiss YHWH's direction (Torah).

I am aware you do not believe it. And you, of course, have the right to believe whatever you think best.

But there can be no doubt - Paul believes the Torah is in the past.

 

[HIM]

Who is under the Law? All who the following verses do not apply.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

 

[HARK!]

Galatians 5:2
Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

If you are under the law then you must be circumcised, no debate.

(CLV) Ac 21:21
Now they were instructed concerning you that you teach all the Jews among the nations apostasy from Moses, telling them not to be circumcising their children, nor yet to be walking in the customs.

(CLV) Ac 21:23
This, then, which we are saying to you, do. With us are four men having a vow on them.

(CLV) Ac 21:24
Taking these along, be |purified together with them, and bear on their expenses, that they should be shaving their heads, and all will know that what they have been instructed concerning you is nothing, but you also are observing the elements and you yourself are maintaining the law.

 

[HARK!]

Paul believes the Torah is in the past.

(CLV) Ro 7:25
I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law.

 

[FredVB]

(CLV) Ro 7:25
I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law.

The Torah and the law from God is not in the past. Christ is effective for the priesthood, sacrifice that is needed, and the way for being cleansed in the way to be before God. It works for those who come to Christ and are then in Christ. But what about those who do not and are not in Christ? They are subject to judgment without Christ then.

 

[ralliann]

The Torah and the law from God is not in the past. Christ is effective for the priesthood, sacrifice that is needed, and the way for being cleansed in the way to be before God. It works for those who come to Christ and are then in Christ. But what about those who do not and are not in Christ? They are subject to judgment without Christ then.

The way I see it is, we in Christ escape that judgement. Those apart from him do not.

Before Moses there was law. God always has been the "judge of all the earth"

Gen 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Of Abraham, God testifies.

Ge 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Abraham, was not judged by Moses Torah. Nor was Noah....etc.

De 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

 

[BobRyan]

(CLV) Ro 3:19
Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,

Well then we have
1. every mouth -- under the Law
2. the entire world - under the law

For as we see in Rom 3:23 "all have sinned"

So "all" -- without exception - need the gospel

 

[Studyman]

The way I see it is, we in Christ escape that judgement. Those apart from him do not.

Before Moses there was law. God always has been the "judge of all the earth"

Gen 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Of Abraham, God testifies.

Ge 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Abraham, was not judged by Moses Torah. Nor was Noah....etc.

De 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

You assume that the Judgments, Commandments Statutes and Laws of God HE gave Abraham are different than the Judgments, Commandments Statutes and Laws of God HE gave Abraham's Children.

As for "The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

You are forgetting that Israel sinned a great sin and broke the Covenant of Abraham God shared with them. At one point God was going to wipe them all out.

Ex. 32: 9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: 10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

At this point there was no covenant, Israel had broken the Covenant God made with them, and were dead in their sins.

Ex. 32: 30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.

There was no Law nor was there a Covenant which provided atonement for sin at this time.

31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. 32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

Another Covenant was made, and a "LAW" of forgiveness "ADDED" that Abraham nor the "Fathers" had.

Jer. 7: 22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

It was after their great sin that God "ADDED" the Priesthood sacrificial "Works" required for forgiveness, to be in place "Till the Seed should come".

 

[Studyman]

I am aware you do not believe it. And you, of course, have the right to believe whatever you think best.

But there can be no doubt - Paul believes the Torah is in the past.

Here are Paul's Words regarding the Torah and Prophets.

Rom. 1: 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein (Within the Gospel of Christ, Moses and the Prophets) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (OT Scripture) 18 For the wrath of God is revealed (not in the NT, but the OT) from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom. 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom. 3: 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

1 Cor. 7: 19 Circumcision (Jew) is nothing, and uncircumcision (Gentile) is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

1 Cor. 9: 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

"Many", who call the Christ of the Bible Lord, Lord, accuse Paul of teaching that the Torah is no longer relevant. But when a person actually hears Paul's own words, this philosophy is exposed as not from Paul, but other voices.

Acts 24: 13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. 14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

And again;

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

So the Paul of the Bible doesn't believe "the Torah is in the past". At least according to his own words.