Who is Under the Law?

[LW97Nils]

Yahshua was commissioned for none but Israel. YHWH's renewed covenant is with Israel.

Except Israel now no longer is a nation with walls.

 

[BobRyan]

Which would confirm my point. See also Acts 15:28-29. The unclean animals in Moses were not adressed. Paul would've done better to do so, if they were universally, otherwise, why mention blood?

Acts 15 also does not include

1. "Love your neighbor as yourself"
2. "Love God with all your heart"
3. "do not take God's name in vain"
4. and a bazillion other things that would also apply.

It was specifically pointing out that gentiles were not under ceremonial laws such as circumcision - but you can find a lot of the other commandments referenced in the NT that do not show up in Acts 15 for gentiles.

 

[BobRyan]

Except Israel now no longer is a nation with walls.

No doubt but it is still apparent that some people are Jewish Christians and some are gentile Christians. We do not need a wall in Israel for that.

 

[HARK!]

In Acts 21 we see gentiles exempted from part of the law - (ceremonial) -- which is not possible at all if there is only two groups - namely "saved vs lost" or put another way -- "Jew vs gentile".

That depends on how you define the word Jew. That word didn't exist when the Bible was written.

Suppose that it is defined as Yahudim. How would the Ger Toshav fit in?

 

[LW97Nils]

No doubt but it is still apparent that some people are Jewish Christians and some are gentile Christians. We do not need a wall in Israel for that.

Absolutely But all are one in Christ - Galatians 3:28. In fact, even in the OT Israel, gentiles could join the nation, despite it being predominantly Jewish.

Acts 15 also does not include

1. "Love your neighbor as yourself"
2. "Love God with all your heart"
3. "do not take God's name in vain"
4. and a bazillion other things that would also apply.

It was specifically pointing out that gentiles were not under ceremonial laws such as circumcision - but you can find a lot of the other commandments referenced in the NT that do not show up in Acts 15 for gentiles.

Yes, but the laws you adressed were not in regard go food. I think to the new converts it was abanduantly clear that they couldn't blaspheme God anymore. While the food laws were less clear.

 

[BobRyan]

Which makes no difference. We agree it is a schoolmaster/escort indeed, but...
...after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Galatians 3:25

In Romans 3:19-21 we see that the Law condemns all mankind as sinners "every mouth". Which brings all in the need of Gospel salvation so in that regard it is a school master - directing all to the Gospel

"but now that FAITH has come" we are no longer under condemnation.

The event in Gal 3 is salvation and it does not matter whether one lives in Abraham's day or our day - that transition takes place once a person is saved.

Therefore "The gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8 and as Heb 4:1 points out "the Gospel was preached to us just as it was to THEM also"

In all ages "there has only been one gospel" Gal 1:6-9

 

[ralliann]

Yes, this means dead to sin (transgression of the Torah), not obeying our lusts, being

Yup, the law killed us, It is why Christ bore the punishment for us. We are raised to newness of life. In a new covenant.....

 

[LW97Nils]

In Romans 3:19-21 we see that the Law condemns all mankind as sinners "every mouth". Which brings all in the need of Gospel salvation so in that regard it is a school master - directing all to the Gospel

"but now that FAITH has come" we are no longer under condemnation.

The event in Gal 3 is salvation and it does not matter whether one lives in Abraham's day or our day - that transition takes place once a person is saved.

Therefore "The gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8 and as Heb 4:1 points out "the Gospel was preached to us just as it was to THEM also"

In all ages "there has only been one gospel" Gal 1:6-9

Absolutely. But the dietary laws also had never been laws in regards to salvation. Merely in regards for the citizens of Israel. God is not a control freak.

At one point you are still wrong. While there indeed is only one gospel, the entirety of the gospel had never been revealed for the first 4,000 years of human history.

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began. Romans 16:25

Calling upon the name of Jesus Christ, the only name who saves, was not possible prior to that.

 

[BobRyan]

Absolutely But all are one in Christ - Galatians 3:28. In fact, even in the OT Israel, gentiles could join the nation, despite it being predominantly Jewish.

Agreed. However Acts 21 makes it clear that there was still a distinction between Jewish Christians and gentile ones in terms of ceremonial laws that one could choose. And in the OT a gentile could not participate in Passover unless circumcised - so even then they were making a distinction.

Yes, but the laws you adressed were not in regard go food.

True - but as Peter makes the point in Acts 10 the food restriction from rat sandwiches was never a question of ceremony. They had no ceremony for making a rat sandwich edible. And so in Acts 10 -- Peter eats no rats.

I think to the new converts it was abanduantly clear that they couldn't blaspheme God anymore. While the food laws were less clear.

Abudantly clear that no NT text was needed - to show that rat sandwiches would of course now be just fine for food??? seriously? you think that people would just "naturally start eating rats"?? And would not think that some direction from God would be needed before taking such a drastic leap??

 

[LW97Nils]

True - but as Peter makes the point in Acts 10 the food restriction from rat sandwiches was never a question of ceremony. They had no ceremony for making a rat sandwich edible. And so in Acts 10 -- Peter eats no rats.

Rats certainly not - but pork? Do we not have discernment on what to eat and what not? I know chicken is clean, but still I wouldn't eat KFC trash...

 

[BobRyan]

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began. Romans 16:25

Calling upon the name of Jesus Christ, the only name who saves, was not possible prior to that.

Jesus is the one telling them not to eat rats at Sinai - according to Heb 8:6-12
Jesus is the one inserting that law into the heart under the New Covenant according to Jer 31:31-34, Heb 8:6-12.

Jesus is not at war against His own law written on the heart.

 

[LW97Nils]

Abudantly clear that no NT text was needed - to show that rat sandwiches would of course now be just fine for food??? seriously? you think that people would just "naturally start eating rats"?? And would not think that some direction from God would be needed before taking such a drastic leap??

I have a bit of a problem taking your arguments serious if you think that I was teaching that eating rats was good. No, I am adressing some other animals that were forbidden for the nation of Israel but do not kill anyone, such as pork and shrimps.

 

[BobRyan]

Rats certainly not - but pork?

What scripture says "it was a good idea in Lev 11 to tell you not to eat rats, but the pork thing was a bad idea, just symbolic"???

 

[LW97Nils]

Jesus is the one telling them not to eat rats at Sinai - according to Heb 8:6-12
Jesus is the one inserting that law into the heart under the New Covenant according to Jer 31:31-34, Heb 8:6-12.

Jesus is not at war against His own law written on the heart.

Never said he was And correct, the commandments were written in the hearts. Means that Paul wrote them the only things the new converts were uncertain about. When Paul converted, he didn't need to be taught that killing Christians and blaspheming Christ was a "no", he just knew it thanks to the indwelling Holy Spirit.

 

[HARK!]

Except Israel now no longer is a nation with walls.

So what?

 

[BobRyan]

I have a bit of a problem taking your arguments serious if you think that I was teaching that eating rats was good.

Actually I am bringing in the rat sandwich because you are trying to dismiss the very chapter in scripture (the one and only chapter in scripture) that tells humans not to eat rats.

I realize you would prefer to limit this to just popularly-accepted items but that is not what we see in Lev 11. It does not restrict itself to just saying "only pork and shell fish are unclean and not for food. the rest you can eat as long as you are not repulsed by it".

If Lev 11 HAD said that - then annulling/deleting/dismissing it would do exactly what you suggest. You would get your desired result.

The problem of course is that you are suggesting a content for Lev 11 that is not there.

 

[HARK!]

Which makes no difference. We agree it is a schoolmaster/escort indeed, but...
...after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Galatians 3:25

Do you understand what the abstract English word "faith"means in the concrete language of Hebrew?

 

[LW97Nils]

What scripture says "it was a good idea in Lev 11 to tell you not to eat rats, but the pork thing was a bad idea, just symbolic"???

Because we are not foolish. We know what kills us and what not. One example: does the Bible every directly say not to smoke weed? No, but we know it kills us.

I did not say it was a bad idea, but a prohibition that was limited to Israel between 1,500 BC and Christ's first coming, just as the Nazarite vow also was.

 

[LW97Nils]

It does not restrict it self to just saying "only pork and shell fish are unclean and not for food. the rest you can eat as long as you are not repulsed by it".

Another evidence. Never did i say such thing, I only listed those two as examples.

The problem of course is that you are suggesting a content for Lev 11 that is not there.

No, I am not. See also Deuteronomy 14:8 - an abomination unto you. Not unto the LORD, thy God.

Do you understand what the abstract English word "faith"means in the concrete language of Hebrew?

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

What scripture says "it was a good idea in Lev 11 to tell you not to eat rats, but the pork thing was a bad idea, just symbolic"???

Because we are not foolish.

If you look at certain asian markets you find rats and a great many other "foolish" things on the menu. Lev 11 is a very wise statement by God to humans on what is food and one cannot argue that His Word on that point can be ignored since of course - no humans eat rats or bats or cats or dogs. It is not the case that deleting Lev 11 still leaves humans not eating rats,cats,dogs bats ...