Who is the woman in Revelations 12?

[RDKirk]

This final horn is the Antichrist, who will somehow be connected with the Revived Roman Empire. Since the Roman Empire has been defunct since the fifth century, we expect it to be “revived” in some way to fulfill the end-times’ prophecies.

Have you ever studied an American dollar bill?

If the apostle Paul studied a US dollar bill, of what nation would he conclude it as currency?

Well, we see the image of a man, as Roman coins of his day bore the image of their emperors.

He sees words in Latin characters, as he saw on Roman coins of his day. He might even be able to figure out words like "United" and "States" because they are derived from the Latin spoken in his day.

On the reverse side, he sees the symbol of the "all-seeing eye," which was a symbol of the Egyptian god Horus, atop a pyramid. Paul would know of both of them, and Egypt was a province of the Roman empire.

And he would see the phrases "annuit cœptis “[He] has approved our undertakings,” novus ordo seclorum “a new order of the ages,” and e pluribus unum “out of many, one,” in Latin. He would be able to read those directly. No nation freely puts a foreign language on their own currency; a free nation puts its native language on its currency. Given that all the text is in Latin characters, some of the words he doesn't know resemble Latin words, and some phrases are straight-out Latin, Paul would see Latin as the native language of the nation of this currency.

And then there is the eagle. The eagle was the symbol of the Roman Empire.

If you ever took any of the standard courses in an American college, from literature to architecture, to physics, to medicine, to art, to sociology, to astronomy, even to computer science, one of the very first things you discover is that they all have their pedagogical roots in Graeco-Roman culture. Americans are not taught these subjects as the ancient Chinese knew them or as the ancient Arabs knew them or as the ancient Egyptians knew them. The roots of what Americans are taught are Graeco-Roman roots...in everything.

I would argue that the United States of America is merely the last province of the Roman Empire.

 

[Major1]

Have you ever studied an American dollar bill?

If the apostle Paul studied a US dollar bill, of what nation would he conclude it as currency?

Well, we see the image of a man, as Roman coins of his day bore the image of their emperors.

He sees words in Latin characters, as he saw on Roman coins of his day. He might even be able to figure out words like "United" and "States" because they are derived from the Latin spoken in his day.

On the reverse side, he sees the symbol of the "all-seeing eye," which was a symbol of the Egyptian god Horus, atop a pyramid. Paul would know of both of them, and Egypt was a province of the Roman empire.

And he would see the phrases "annuit cœptis “[He] has approved our undertakings,” novus ordo seclorum “a new order of the ages,” and e pluribus unum “out of many, one,” in Latin. He would be able to read those directly. No nation freely puts a foreign language on their own currency; a free nation puts its native language on its currency. Given that all the text is in Latin characters, some of the words he doesn't know resemble Latin words, and some phrases are straight-out Latin, Paul would see Latin as the native language of the nation of this currency.

And then there is the eagle. The eagle was the symbol of the Roman Empire.

If you ever took any of the standard courses in an American college, from literature to architecture, to physics, to medicine, to art, to sociology, to astronomy, even to computer science, one of the very first things you discover is that they all have their pedagogical roots in Graeco-Roman culture. Americans are not taught these subjects as the ancient Chinese knew them or as the ancient Arabs knew them or as the ancient Egyptians knew them. The roots of what Americans are taught are Graeco-Roman roots...in everything.

I would argue that the United States of America is merely the last province of the Roman Empire.

That is an idea, for sure.

However, I am not one who believes the USA is involved in the end times.

For one reason, the USA may just be doing what Rome did.....rot from the inside out.
Rome disintegrated from homosexual behavior, more and more severe sports and politics that involved bribery more than support of the people.

Sound like today????

Then the 2nd thing, I for believe that the Rapture will make the USA a 3rd world country with no power or will to do anything except follow the A/C.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Have you ever studied an American dollar bill?

If the apostle Paul studied a US dollar bill, of what nation would he conclude it as currency?

Well, we see the image of a man, as Roman coins of his day bore the image of their emperors.

He sees words in Latin characters, as he saw on Roman coins of his day. He might even be able to figure out words like "United" and "States" because they are derived from the Latin spoken in his day.

On the reverse side, he sees the symbol of the "all-seeing eye," which was a symbol of the Egyptian god Horus, atop a pyramid. Paul would know of both of them, and Egypt was a province of the Roman empire.

And he would see the phrases "annuit cœptis “[He] has approved our undertakings,” novus ordo seclorum “a new order of the ages,” and e pluribus unum “out of many, one,” in Latin. He would be able to read those directly. No nation freely puts a foreign language on their own currency; a free nation puts its native language on its currency. Given that all the text is in Latin characters, some of the words he doesn't know resemble Latin words, and some phrases are straight-out Latin, Paul would see Latin as the native language of the nation of this currency.

And then there is the eagle. The eagle was the symbol of the Roman Empire.

If you ever took any of the standard courses in an American college, from literature to architecture, to physics, to medicine, to art, to sociology, to astronomy, even to computer science, one of the very first things you discover is that they all have their pedagogical roots in Graeco-Roman culture. Americans are not taught these subjects as the ancient Chinese knew them or as the ancient Arabs knew them or as the ancient Egyptians knew them. The roots of what Americans are taught are Graeco-Roman roots...in everything.

I would argue that the United States of America is merely the last province of the Roman Empire.

You make the assumption that Paul was fluent in Latin, for which there is absolutely no evidence.

 

[Mountainmike]

Not so brother.

The woman is Israel who gives birth to Jesus whose death is the cornerstone of the Bride which is the church.

Matthew 11:25 ,
Wise and learned major: but when I ask children who it is, they say Mary.

You should also consider that revelations did not have chapters so the verse before “ behold a lady , her head ringed with stars” 11.29 refers to the ark of the covenant: Mary is the ark of the new covenant.

It is amazing the straining at gnats Protestants take to avoid the literal and blindingly obvious meanings scripture. They start with a conclusion, and then twist the scripture to suit the conclusion. You don’t want it to be Mary, so twist it to mean anything else.

 

[RDKirk]

That is an idea, for sure.

However, I am not one who believes the USA is involved in the end times.

For one reason, the USA may just be doing what Rome did.....rot from the inside out.
Rome disintegrated from homosexual behavior, more and more severe sports and politics that involved bribery more than support of the people.

Sound like today????

Then the 2nd thing, I for believe that the Rapture will make the USA a 3rd world country with no power or will to do anything except follow the A/C.

And remember that Rome had been Christian for over a century when the western end (Rome itself) fell.

 

[RDKirk]

You make the assumption that Paul was fluent in Latin, for which there is absolutely no evidence.

Being an educated Roman citizen and shown capable of carrying out deep discussions with Roman officials (such as at Philippi), it's unlikely Paul could not read simple Latin.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Being an educated Roman citizen and shown capable of carrying out deep discussions with Roman officials (such as at Philippi), it's unlikely Paul could not read simple Latin.

Nevertheless, we have no definitive evidence that Paul was fluent in Latin. The lingua franca of the Roman Empire was Greek, not Latin.

 

[klutedavid]

Matthew 11:25 ,
Wise and learned major: but when I ask children who it is, they say Mary.

You should also consider that revelations did not have chapters so the verse before “ behold a lady , her head ringed with stars” 11.29 refers to the ark of the covenant: Mary is the ark of the new covenant.

It is amazing the straining at gnats Protestants take to avoid the literal and blindingly obvious meanings scripture. They start with a conclusion, and then twist the scripture to suit the conclusion. You don’t want it to be Mary, so twist it to mean anything else.

There are some verses that are impossible to conclude that the woman is Mary.

Revelation 12:13
And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman (Israel, Church) who gave birth to the male child.

The dragon is not persecuting a woman called Mary in this verse (Revelation 12:13). The dragon is hell bent on destroying the church. Your missing the symbolic nature of the woman.

Revelation 12:15
And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman (Israel, Church) so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood.

Once again, the woman is more likely the bride, the church.
The serpent is not persecuting Mary on her own.

Israel the nation did not exist for two thousand years, this almost certainly removes national Israel as a candidate for the woman.

Perhaps spiritual Israel is a possibility.

Mary the person would have passed away before Revelation was written. Once again, Revelation uses symbols from start to finish, the woman is the bride.

 

[RDKirk]

Being an educated Roman citizen and shown capable of carrying out deep discussions with Roman officials (such as at Philippi), it's unlikely Paul could not read simple Latin.

So your only argument is the very small point that Paul might not have been able to read the Latin words. But he'd certainly recognize them as Latin, just as I can recognize Spanish, French, Russian, Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Czech, and several other written language forms.

 

[Eloy Craft]

7 B0 +

I am not sure what you are trying to say, but I do not think I agree with your theology of Rev. 17:9-11 being compared to the Samarian woman.

Really? That pattern " ficve have fallen , one is, one is yet to come etc.... is coincidence? If not the comparison is something being pointed out by the Sacred texts.

 

[Mountainmike]

I don’t miss anything.

Whilst it is true revelation can be read at several levels, one is certainly Mary, also possibly eve,with some allusion to Israel and possibly church. None of them “fit” perfectly.

It is also true that Mary did indeed escape persecution and fled to Egypt “ desert” for several years “ 1260 days” until herods death. She also fled persecution in the holy land after the crucifixion.

Since the church developed rapidly amongst Gentiles , and Jesus attacked the pharasaic tradition, for valuing works of law over love of God, it is hard to see Israel as “ those who keep the commandments”. Paul was from tarsus, although diaspora.

Flood is a frequent biblical euphemism for invasion, or overthrow, at one level hostility to Christians that saw many flee Israel.

On the final point , Mary travelled with John, and her last dwelling place was almost certainly in the hills above Ephesus.( her house was found) The lack of mention of the destruction of the temple puts the authorship of revelations probably pre 70, a time when John and Mary were together.

So I contend one meaning perhaps not the only, is “ Mary” not least because it is straight after a verse that speaks of the ark of the covenant. Mary is the ark of the new covenant.

My comment on major ( who I answered) is he often takes literal translations of bible, until he gets near any matter related to catholic dogma, then he will twist anything to avoid that meaning.

IN this case , “ what would a child think” rather than “ learned” is important. I have asked, many say Mary until told not to think that!
Matthew 11:25 is an interesting test of scholars trying to be too clever by half, when the obvious should be accepted.

Just as a child says rightly peter is the rock! And on this rock... etc
. The honest ones accept Peters primacy, indeed that the church has always had a leader but some question the nature and extent. They will struggle with any such argument because of the clear meaning of “ bind and loose”

There are some verses that are impossible to conclude that the woman is Mary.

Revelation 12:13
And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman (Israel, Church) who gave birth to the male child.

The dragon is not persecuting a woman called Mary in this verse (Revelation 12:13). The dragon is hell bent on destroying the church. Your missing the symbolic nature of the woman.

Revelation 12:15
And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman (Israel, Church) so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood.

Once again, the woman is more likely the bride, the church.
The serpent is not persecuting Mary on her own.

Israel the nation did not exist for two thousand years, this almost certainly removes national Israel as a candidate for the woman.

Perhaps spiritual Israel is a possibility.

Mary the person would have passed away before Revelation was written. Once again, Revelation uses symbols from start to finish, the woman is the bride.

 

[Eloy Craft]

The Woman described in Rev.12 confirms the tradition of the Assumption of Mary. Clothed in the sun. This is the glorified body. Think of the Transfiguration. standing on the moon, she is not subject to change. The moon being a symbol of things that change.

If Mary's tomb is empty it means death had no hold on her body, that it is enjoying eternal life with her divine son Jesus. These conclusions arrived at because Mary is assumed to God also point to the necessity of her Immaculate conception.

 

[Major1]

The Woman described in Rev.12 confirms the tradition of the Assumption of Mary. Clothed in the sun. This is the glorified body. Think of the Transfiguration. standing on the moon, she is not subject to change. The moon being a symbol of things that change.

If Mary's tomb is empty it means death had no hold on her body, that it is enjoying eternal life with her divine son Jesus. These conclusions arrived at because Mary is assumed to God also point to the necessity of her Immaculate conception.

NO sir it does not. The woman is Israel.

There is NO Bible Scriptures that say or even suggest that Mary as "Assumed" there fore she can not be the woman in Rev. 12.

 

[Mountainmike]

NO sir it does not.

Matthew 11:25 - too wise for your own good Major.

The bible does not tell us that 10 of the disciples died. So by your reasoning, that if the bible doesnt say it, it didnt happen, they must be still alive then.

Tell me...where are they?

Children think it is Mary.
Only people straining at gnats refuse to accept it can mean Mary
(which can be one of several allusions, who said it could only mean one thing?).

 

[Victor in Christ]

The Seven Personages chapter 12 and 13

chapter 12 is related to

v1 Galatians 4:26
v2 Isaiah 26:17
v3 Daniel 7:7, Daniel 7:20
v4 Isaiah 27:1, Daniel 8:10
v7 Daniel 12:1, Jude 1:9
v9 Genesis 3:1, 2 Corinthians 11:3
v11Luke 14:26, john 16:33
v14 Exodus 19:4, Isaiah 40:31
v17 Genesis 3:15, Revelation 14:12

12 v 1-2 In the first of the seven signs, a woman is described as a pictur of Israel, she has been called by God and is 'clothed with the sun' meaning she reflects the power of God. The moon is 'under her feet' indicating that she is the nation God has marked as special. Her twelve crowns correspond to the twelve tribes of Israel. She is with child, a picture of the Messiah. Her labor pains represent the struggles that were a part of the life of Israel.
v 4 Some see this passage as a reference to Satan taking one-third of the angels with him when he fell from heaven. Others think it simply represents a show of power by the dragon. He has only one goal in mind to destroy the child (an image of the Messiah/Christ). Christ told his disciples that they would have tribulations in this world when he left them to prepare a place for them and us in the new heavens and earth. Satan's power in this earth would grow strong.
v 5 This is not a picture of a tyrannical rule as much as it shows the firm power of a King. The child is immediately caught up into heaven-that is, he ascends into heaven. This ascension indicates that the Son is waiting for the day when he will rule.
v 6 the 1,260 days, or three and a half years, show up again (11:1-3). In this case, the woman hides for this duration.

..................

v10-12 The aanouncement of salvation and of Satan's ultimate expulsion from heaven is spoken in the first person plural ('the accuser of our brethern'). It is proclaimed by a group of angels, but any of the heavenly members in the vision could be the source.
v13 When Satan realizes that he can't reach the child, he goes after the woman. Satan sets out to persecute Israel.
v15-17 Two more attempts are made by Satan. First he spits flood waters to sweep the woman away from her wilderness safe house, but the earth swallows the floodwaters. Then when he is unable to attack, he goes after her children, that is, he turns on the church.

 

[bbbbbbb]

NO sir it does not. The woman is Israel.

There is NO Bible Scriptures that say or even suggest that Mary as "Assumed" there fore she can not be the woman in Rev. 12.

The extremely curious aspect about the alleged assumption of Mary into heaven itself as witnessed by the Apostles and others is that not a single one of them apparently considered it to have much significance, at least to the point where they would jot it down. As we all know, the New Testament was written and compiled after the time when the assumption would have occurred. We certainly have the record of the ascension of Jesus Christ in Acts 1. We also have 27 chapters following which span a period of decades of church history. However, although Luke records some rather mundane items such as the circumcision of Timothy, he failed to even mention what is considered to be a miracle on the order of Christ's ascension. Why is that?

 

[Major1]

The extremely curious aspect about the alleged assumption of Mary into heaven itself as witnessed by the Apostles and others is that not a single one of them apparently considered it to have much significance, at least to the point where they would jot it down. As we all know, the New Testament was written and compiled after the time when the assumption would have occurred. We certainly have the record of the ascension of Jesus Christ in Acts 1. We also have 27 chapters following which span a period of decades of church history. However, although Luke records some rather mundane items such as the circumcision of Timothy, he failed to even mention what is considered to be a miracle on the order of Christ's ascension. Why is that?

WHY is that????

Because it never happened!!!!!!

In fact, the first reasonable mention, according to the Roman Catholic Church, is found in St. John Damascene who lived in the 700's. This is a blatantly obvious historical (not to mention biblical) vacuum concerning Mary's Assumption. Obviously, such a dogma, such an all-important essential of the Christian church, would have been mentioned by at least some of the Church Fathers within the first few centuries. But, it wasn't.

Again, Why? Because it did not happen!!!!!

 

[Major1]

The Seven Personages chapter 12 and 13

chapter 12 is related to

v1 Galatians 4:26
v2 Isaiah 26:17
v3 Daniel 7:7, Daniel 7:20
v4 Isaiah 27:1, Daniel 8:10
v7 Daniel 12:1, Jude 1:9
v9 Genesis 3:1, 2 Corinthians 11:3
v11Luke 14:26, john 16:33
v14 Exodus 19:4, Isaiah 40:31
v17 Genesis 3:15, Revelation 14:12

12 v 1-2 In the first of the seven signs, a woman is described as a pictur of Israel, she has been called by God and is 'clothed with the sun' meaning she reflects the power of God. The moon is 'under her feet' indicating that she is the nation God has marked as special. Her twelve crowns correspond to the twelve tribes of Israel. She is with child, a picture of the Messiah. Her labor pains represent the struggles that were a part of the life of Israel.
v 4 Some see this passage as a reference to Satan taking one-third of the angels with him when he fell from heaven. Others think it simply represents a show of power by the dragon. He has only one goal in mind to destroy the child (an image of the Messiah/Christ). Christ told his disciples that they would have tribulations in this world when he left them to prepare a place for them and us in the new heavens and earth. Satan's power in this earth would grow strong.
v 5 This is not a picture of a tyrannical rule as much as it shows the firm power of a King. The child is immediately caught up into heaven-that is, he ascends into heaven. This ascension indicates that the Son is waiting for the day when he will rule.
v 6 the 1,260 days, or three and a half years, show up again (11:1-3). In this case, the woman hides for this duration.

..................

v10-12 The aanouncement of salvation and of Satan's ultimate expulsion from heaven is spoken in the first person plural ('the accuser of our brethern'). It is proclaimed by a group of angels, but any of the heavenly members in the vision could be the source.
v13 When Satan realizes that he can't reach the child, he goes after the woman. Satan sets out to persecute Israel.
v15-17 Two more attempts are made by Satan. First he spits flood waters to sweep the woman away from her wilderness safe house, but the earth swallows the floodwaters. Then when he is unable to attack, he goes after her children, that is, he turns on the church.

I can not agree.

The woman’s flight into the wilderness for 1,260 days refers to the future time called the Great Tribulation when Israel will be the focus of God's attentions.

Twelve hundred, sixty days is 42 months (of 30 days each), which is the same as 3 1/2 years. Halfway through the Tribulation period, the Beast (the Antichrist) will set an image of himself up in the temple that will be built in Jerusalem.

This is the abomination that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14. When the Beast does this, he breaks the peace pact he had made with Israel, and the nation has to flee for safety—possibly to Petra (also see Matthew 24; Daniel 9:27). This escape of the Jews is pictured as the woman fleeing into the wilderness.

Revelation 12:12-17 speaks of how the devil will make war against Israel, trying to destroy her (Satan knows his time is short, relatively speaking—see Revelation 20:1-3, 10). It also reveals that God will protect Israel in the wilderness. Revelation 12:14 says Israel will be protected from the devil for "a time, times, and half a time (“a time” = 1 year; “times” = 2 years; “half a time” = one-half year; in other words, 3 1/2 years).What does Revelation chapter 12 mean? | GotQuestions.org

 

[bbbbbbb]

WHY is that????

Because it never happened!!!!!!

In fact, the first reasonable mention, according to the Roman Catholic Church, is found in St. John Damascene who lived in the 700's. This is a blatantly obvious historical (not to mention biblical) vacuum concerning Mary's Assumption. Obviously, such a dogma, such an all-important essential of the Christian church, would have been mentioned by at least some of the Church Fathers within the first few centuries. But, it wasn't.

Again, Why? Because it did not happen!!!!!

Or . . . . There was a vast Protestant conspiracy which obliterated all mention of the Assumption of Mary from the historical records.

This is not unlike Islam which claims that the Injil (our New Testament) was massively rewritten by Christians to eliminate all of the prophecies concerning Mohammed.

 

[Victor in Christ]

I can not agree.

The woman’s flight into the wilderness for 1,260 days refers to the future time called the Great Tribulation when Israel will be the focus of God's attentions.

Twelve hundred, sixty days is 42 months (of 30 days each), which is the same as 3 1/2 years. Halfway through the Tribulation period, the Beast (the Antichrist) will set an image of himself up in the temple that will be built in Jerusalem.

This is the abomination that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14. When the Beast does this, he breaks the peace pact he had made with Israel, and the nation has to flee for safety—possibly to Petra (also see Matthew 24; Daniel 9:27). This escape of the Jews is pictured as the woman fleeing into the wilderness.

Revelation 12:12-17 speaks of how the devil will make war against Israel, trying to destroy her (Satan knows his time is short, relatively speaking—see Revelation 20:1-3, 10). It also reveals that God will protect Israel in the wilderness. Revelation 12:14 says Israel will be protected from the devil for "a time, times, and half a time (“a time” = 1 year; “times” = 2 years; “half a time” = one-half year; in other words, 3 1/2 years).What does Revelation chapter 12 mean? | GotQuestions.org

I understand the bible spiritually. You obviously are into eschatology and look for signs on earth. Nothing wrong with that, many Christians do, but we don't know the day nor the hour.

Personally when i read Genesis 8:21-22, i believe man will destroy earth through his own (satanic) intelligence. God won't, he doesn't break his covenant with his faithful.

god Bless