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Who is the man of sin, the son of perdition?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Jade777, Jan 8, 2014.

  1. KNOWLEDGE BOMB

    KNOWLEDGE BOMB Junior Member

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    Doug said:
    Before then, earlier in his career, he does not. His religion will outwardly at least be Judaism. He won't be saying anything negative about God in the early stages of the 7 years.


    SEE NO WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY HE WILL BE INTO JUDAISM -
    this is what DOUG made up so it would fit his story...


    BUT THE WORD DOES SAY HE WILL FURTHER A GOD HIS FATHERS DID NOT KNOW

    THAT'S SATAN DOUG... Also how is it that a man who makes the agreement and NEVER claims to be the messiah - you turn into the messiah..... Sorry doug the AC promotes the devil and NOWHERE does the word say different

    no where does it say the Jews believe he's the messiah



    Only doug does
     
  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Judaism is the religion of the Jews. The Antichrist wiil be someone that the Jews will receive (Anti) in lieu of the true Christ, Jesus. The concept of the messiah, comes out of Judaism, the prophecies of old testament, the promises of God that he would send them a great king, descended from King David, to lead them into an era of peace and harmony.


    Yes, it says that in Daniel 11, when he has entered the Antichrist-beast stage for that last 42 months because in that set of verses, it says that he claims to be greater than every god.

    Again, you have not comprehended the progression of events in the end times prophecies corresponding to the 4 stages of the Antichrist's career.


    You are not comprehending the progression of events in end times bible prophecy corresponding to the 4 stages of the Antichrist's career. The Antichrist is not referred to as the beast except in that last 42 month segment.

    Only doug? Not hardly.

    Arthur Pink in 1923 wrote a work called the Antichrist. It is available on line to read for free. The Antichrist - By A.W. Pink

    (excerpt from Pink's work)" 7. This mock Christ will be "received" by Israel. The Jews will be deceived by Him. They will believe that he is indeed their long-expected Messiah. They will accept him as such. Proofs of this will be furnished in a later chapter. But if this pseudo Christ succeeds in palming himself off on the Jews as their true Messiah he must be a Jew, for it is unthinkable that they would be deceived by any Gentile."

    What do you think the term messiah means? Do think Christianity invented it?

    It comes from the Hebrew word for anointed. The "Anti" Christ will be a false anointed King of Israel, "in lieu of" Jesus the true Christ.
     
  3. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    What i think is valid is the false religion of Semiramis and Tammuz was spread into the different cultures of the ancient world by different names, variations of the same religion. Tammuz is actually in the old testament.

    Ezekiel8:12 Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, the Lord seeth us not; the Lord hath forsaken the earth.
    13 He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.
    14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the Lord's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.

    Then when we get to Revelation 17...5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

    So by the time, we get to Revelation 18...24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. That's what bring everything back to the tower of babel, Semiramis, Nimrod as the beast in the bottomless pit.

    The RCC and the Vatican had adopted the Semiramis/Tammuz Rome version that was there in Rome at the time, to Christianity as the Madonna/Child of Mary/Jesus. Plus the numbers of them martyred during the inquisition and them who didn't go along with the Pope. So the practical side of it is that the Vatican is woman sitting in the city of the seven hills Rome, and the RCC on the waters of the earth, all the nations.

    The Vatican, and probably Rome at the same time, will end up being destroyed by the ten kings - because having an organization that claims Jesus is God will be an impediment to the Antichrist-beast's agenda that he is God.

    But the RCC and the Vatican only go so far back in time, and cannot be the ones responsible for the deaths of the prophets and them slain upon the earth like it says in the last verse of Revelation 18. Which as far back as a person can go - post flood era, is to the tower of babel and Nimrod in unifying all the people against God.

    Nimrod and Semiramis are tied together. Nimrod as he was maturing, began turning into a giborim - an indication that he somehow had the nephillim gene in him.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
  4. TillICollapse

    TillICollapse Well-Known Member

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    Actually, you would go all the way back to Cain and Abel, I would think:

    Matthew 23:

    "29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

    33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

    37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[c]"
     
  5. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Matthew 23... weren't the Pharisees already secretly planning to kill Jesus at that point? And Jesus knew it. Matthew 12:14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. 15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

    So that is the backdrop to when it gets to Matthew 23 and Jesus lashed into them. He knew they were planning murder just like Cain did to Abel, and the same sort of wickedness done to the prophets who were sent to them to change their ways.

    A prophet of God is someone appointed by God to speak on his behalf in delivering a message or teaching to the people. Which that message had been sent over and over, generation to generation for them to repent. Of which John the Baptist was the latest. And that generation of pharisees and I guess them who sided with the pharisees would forever bear the burden as having been the generation that killed the messiah.

    I don't think it is talking about Jerusalem as the woman in Revelation 17 and 18, however. I think one has to go to the source of all false religions back to the tower of babel and Nimrod, which I lean to the woman being Semiramis. But not further back because of the flood, and Noah and his sons - who I don't think there was any false religions being practiced by them.

    I would agree with you that Mystery Babylon is fallen is fallen itself would go back to the first murder, Cain killing Abel, because that is the principality of Satan and his angels - which will be cast down to earth somewhere just a little passed the middlepoint of the 7 years.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
  6. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    When the issues of the Rev are seen as at hand and happening shortly, and when the 'woman' is contrasted with the bride and is said to have committed what Mt 23 says, then there is a good case for her being that woman of Rev 17. It may not have anything to do with futurism, but oh well.

    It would not be the only time that Judaism was put in the bucket with the worst of religion on earth. Gal 4 and Col 2 puts it in the 'weak and miserable elements of the world' category. And Col 2 is meant in a contemporary sense: it was about a neo-Judaism in which certain people in the Asia Minor area claimed to be hearing from the same angels that delivered the Torah to start with.
     
  7. Codger

    Codger Regular Member

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    Last edited: Jan 11, 2014
  8. TillICollapse

    TillICollapse Well-Known Member

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    I don't see where Jesus is drawing a parallel to Cain and Abel and them murdering Him as Messiah ... He says specifically that all the blood of the righteous will come upon them, as a "generation", including Abel's. One may could argue that Jesus represents all the blood of the righteous, or shares the same blood with them ... whether past or present.

    So on the one hand we have Jesus saying whom all the blood will come upon ... but then later we see in Revelations that Mystery Babylon gets drunk on the blood of the saints but also that "And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”" Is this one and the same as when Jesus is condemning the Teachers of the Law and Pharisees and saying what blood will come upon them ? We see the blood of the righteous from Abel to Zechariah comes upon them, while Mystery Babylon has the blood of prophets and saints and ALL who were slain on the earth. Perhaps righteous and unrighteous alike.
     
  9. daq

    daq Messianic

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    Does no one understand that wheresoever the Son of man stands the ground is holy ground? The following statement from Yochanan the Immerser is a direct reference to the two passages which are quoted below it from Exodus and Joshua:

    John 1:26-27 KJV
    26. John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
    27. He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

    Exodus 3:1-5 KJV
    1. Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.
    2. And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
    3. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
    4. And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
    5. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

    Joshua 5:13-15 KJV
    13. And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
    14. And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
    15. And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.


    The "son of perdition", (first of many) according to Yeshua was Judas Iskariotes:

    Matthew 26:47-49 KJV
    47. And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people.
    48. Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.
    49. And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.

    Mark 14:43-45 KJV
    43. And immediately, while he yet spake, cometh Judas, one of the twelve, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders.
    44. And he that betrayed him had given them a token, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he; take him, and lead him away safely.
    45. And as soon as he was come, he goeth straightway to him, and saith, Master, master; and kissed him.

    Luke 22:47-48 KJV
    47. And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him.
    48. But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?


    And there is Judas Sicarii-Iskariotes standing in the holy place . . .
     
  10. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    Good observations!
     
  11. Jade777

    Jade777 Guest

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    Hi Tranquil,
    Your logic for 2 entities as ‘man of sin, son of perdition’ is interesting however the bible seems to indicate otherwise, you may have overlooked verses 8 & 9 mention an individual the lawless one = man of sin, son of perdition – doesn’t show 2 entities here only one. The 7 headed beast, the beast from the sea the 1st Beast/man of sin, goes to perdition – destruction – death etc.

    I believe the 1st Beast is a king and is not the AC.

    The 3rd Beast already passed under the Greco Macedonian empire, it doesn’t seem to fit the AC. The 4th Beast is not Satan, known historically as the Roman Empire. The interpretation of the 4th Beast is shown in the last half of the Dan 7 notice verses 19-23 10 horns & 10 kings, speaks pompous words, persecutes the saints, identical to the MoS /SoP in 2 Thes 2, and 1st Beast see Rev 13:4-6, Satan gives authority to this Beast. It is transparent that Satan is not the 4th Beast in Dan 7 but is the first beast in Rev 13.

    Yes the 2nd Beast is the FP yes he will go to perdition like the 1st Beast but still doesn't fit the SoP as above see this as one individual MoS. It is the 1st Beast that is the 8th that is still to come from the Roman empire - Europe. Thanks for sharing your perceptions are thought-provoking :).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2014
  12. Jade777

    Jade777 Guest

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    Hey Daq,



    Interesting point of view, thanks for bringing that to my attention, nevertheless, I agree with your initial view on this one :). The falling away in 2 Thes 2 applies to Church, Apostasia (Greek) i.e they fall away from the truth not someone new coming into the faith. The context is directed to the church and warning against a specific individual ‘the man of sin, son of perdition’ not sinners in the plural carefully read vs8 “And then the lawless one...” and vs 9 repeats “The coming of the lawless one is the working of satan with all power, signs , and lying wonders.” In reference to “we are the son of perdition” has anyone of us come with great power, performings signs and lying wonders. Do you? You may like to consider these perdition scriptures for clarification: 7 But the angel said to me, "Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition Rev 17:7-8. The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition Rev 17:11. Beast and perdition a connection to the man of sin, son of perdition.
     
  13. Jade777

    Jade777 Guest

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    Hi x41, thanks for your thoughts similar to Daq's.
     
  14. daq

    daq Messianic

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    Yes, I remember the night Bel-dak was slain: I became third ruler of my dominion. :)
     
  15. Jade777

    Jade777 Guest

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    Yes your right they do not come to Israel's aid but to destroy them with muslim countries as their allies Ezekiel 38-39.

    Who is Gog?

    Now this is the genealogy of the sons of Noah: ....... The sons of Japheth were Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras (Genesis 10:1-2).

    3 O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal…6 from the far north and all its troops–many people are with you (Ezekiel 38:3,6).

    14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog…15…you will come from your place out of the far north… (Ezekiel 38:14-15).

    1 O Gog, prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal; 2 and I will turn you around and lead you on, bringing you up from the far north (Ezekiel 39:1-2).

    Also notice.....
    "Rosh is thought by some to mean Russia...Meshech is thought to mean Moscow; or Muscovy...Whatever may be the exact identification of these peoples, (Magog, Meshech, Tubal, Gomer and Rosh) Ezekiel speaks of them as dwelling in 'the uttermost parts of the north' (38:6, 15; 39:2), and there can be little doubt that he means nations beyond the Caucasus (mountains)." Ref: Halley H.H. Halley's Bible Handbook, 23rd edition, 1962, p. 333.


    The above identifies Gog as Russia.

    Who is Magog?
    The sons of Japheth were Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. The sons of Gomer were Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah. The sons of Javan were Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. Genesis 10:2-3.

    "In China, along the coast, there was a people called Three Han by the early Chinese writers. Han may be a derivative of Javan or Yahan...The three were Ma-Han, Shon-Han and the Pien-Ha. There is, as Bishop writes, a very close relationship between them and the people who settled Japan." Ref: In Search of...The Origin of Nations. History Research Projects. 2003, pp. 164-165.

    Most Protestant commentators recognise that the oriental peoples are descendants of Japheth, but do consider that Magog's descendants are Chinese.

    Russia & China are Gog & Magog. Muslim nations will be their allies (Persia - Iran, Ethiopia, Libya):

    1 Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 3 and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal. 4 I will turn you around, put hooks into your jaws, and lead you out, with all your army, horses, and horsemen, all splendidly clothed, a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords. 5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya are with them, all of them with shield and helmet; 6 Gomer and all its troops; the house of Togarmah from the far north and all its troops — many people are with you. Ezekiel 38.

    Something else worth mentioning about Russia and China on the 6/6/12

    "President Vladimir Putin has said Russia will cement its military alliance with China, including an increase in joint exercises in the Asia-Pacific. “China is Russia’s strategic partner. We enjoy mutually beneficial, mutually trusting, open cooperation in all fields,” said Putin. Ref: search rt.com, news, putin-china-military-139. Russia and China seem to have a solid military alliance.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2014
  16. Jade777

    Jade777 Guest

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    Dougg,

    Re: Gog & Magog, an additional point is: Rev 16:12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared (Battle of Armageddon).
    Bearing in mind the focal point is Jerusalem - East of Jerusalem is Asia territory - China specifically is known as the sunrise people and the east in the Greek is defined as sunrise.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2014
  17. Jade777

    Jade777 Guest

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    Lol Daq :D
     
  18. Noxot

    Noxot tohu and bohu Supporter

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    the beast sees and moves in what it is as did Jesus see and move in what he is. the medicines of human beings often leads to much worse symptoms than the thing they attempt to cure. so it is for the beast and his religions and the world and their ways of solving problems. there is also great good that comes out of mankind, because God rains upon all and supplies for all and uses everything for our good, especially the ones who are spiritually awake.

    if we look from a wider view of reality we see a play with actors, a wonderful love story of a wedding. not many make it that far, only one or two, there is no room for all those unclean animals in the Holy place, they are unworthy. if only we would have slain the animals in sinai, then it would have become light to us, the beast being removed from the picture like a veil being removed from a perfect painting. instead there was motivations based in fears and other unclean spirits mixed with the perfection of God, thus a confusion of face just as much as a man is confused when he has a veil over his face and yet sees dimly through it.

    to this day the veil of moses remains and thus there are 2 mountains instead of one. those little children on mount zion are the beast on mount sinai. most things can slay you just as much as God can raise out of those rocks children, for they are the same thing and yet all some can do is kill and be killed with stones, it is God alone who makes children. only God is good and so whatever good happens comes from God.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
  19. Jade777

    Jade777 Guest

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    Ok, you see him as AC I'll call him the 1st Beast/King of the North. That is a possibility that they see him as their long awaited Messiah and if that is so this person reigns for 3 1/2 years through the tribulation period.

    I notice your sequence of events, and you have clarified your view, thanks for that. I do believe the 1st Beast goes through stages as most Prophecies show that historical ones are forerunners or precursors and have a latter fulfillment (dual). Most of those stages I see as biblical but I would modify the order it is in and implement additions.


     
  20. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    I believe the man of sin was Nero. He persecuted the Christians, who are the "temple of God".

    I don't think 2 Thessalonians 2 is referring to the Jerusalem temple, because it is Ichabod after the death of Christ...and Paul and Peter have taught that the church is the temple in their writings.

    Judas Ischariot was called the "son of perditition" by Jesus as he betrayed Him., his role ended with his suicide as Santn had entered him.

    Nero is the man of sin, the murderer of Peter and Paul as well as thousands of saints.
     
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