Who is "National Israel"?

[Guojing]

"National Israel" today refers only to the nation state of Israel in the middle east, and all Jews associated with it. It's really just a political term, not a Biblical declaration.

Christ's Church = believers on Jesus Christ as Messiah, made up of both believing Israelites (from both houses), and believing Gentiles, as one body in Christ. In final, under Christ Jesus, both the future "house of Judah" and "house of Israel" will be under the coming Kingdom of Jesus Christ, our King and Lord. That represents God's Israel of the future world to come, on earth.

So you believe that there is a distinction between the nation Israel and God's Israel here?

 

[Guojing]

Jesus brought plan A to the Jews, and their rejection of Him is why gentiles can now be included in plan A.

There’s no such thing as a covenant with the church.

The term HOUSE of Israel is indisputable - it means national Israel.

Jamieson-Faucet-Brown scholarly commentary on Jeremiah and the new covenant with the HOUSE of Israel:

the days ... new covenant with ... Israel ... Judah — The new covenant is made with literal Israel and Judah, not with the spiritual Israel, (that is, believers, except secondarily), and as grafted on the stock of Israel (Rom 11:16-27).

For the whole subject of the thirtieth and thirty-first chapters is the restoration of the Hebrews (Jer 30:4, Jer 30:7, Jer 30:10, Jer 30:18; Jer 31:7, Jer 31:10, Jer 31:11, Jer 31:23, Jer 31:24, Jer 31:27, Jer 31:36).

With the “remnant according to the election of grace” in Israel, the new covenant has already taken effect. But with regard to the whole nation, its realization is reserved for the last days, to which Paul refers this prophecy in an abridged form (Rom 11:27).

Good point, I prefer the KJV version of 2 Corinthians 3:6 who correctly used the term "New Testament", I think almost every other version uses the term "New Covenant", which will mislead the English readers to think its the same as the term mentioned in Hebrews 8:8.

The New Testament is linked to the Body of Christ.

The New Covenant is made, and only made with national Israel.

 

[keras]

Jesus is the Israel of God

It is the premise of this article that Jesus Christ is the true Israel of God and that everyone who is united to Him through faith becomes, by virtue of that union, an Israelite of God.

This means that it is error to look for, expect, hope for or desire a reconstitution of an ethnic Israel in the future. The New Covenant church is not something which God instituted until he could recreate a national people in Palestine, but rather, God only had a national people temporarily (from Moses to Christ) as a prelude to and foreshadowing of the creation of the New Covenant in which the ethnic distinctions which existed under Moses were fulfilled and abolished. Ephesians 2.11-22; Colossians 2:8 & 3:11

Matthew 2:14-15....Joseph takes Mary and Jesus to Egypt.....

In the Bible, the expression “out of Egypt” occurs more than 140 times. It is one of the defining facts of the existence of national Israel. When God gave the Law he said, “I am Yahweh your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt.” They were a redeemed people belonging to their Savior.

Thus it most significant when Matthew 2:15 quotes Hosea 11:1

That inspired interpretation of the Scriptures confirms it is our Lord Jesus and His followers, not the temporary, national, peoples; who is now the true Israel of God. Indeed it is not too much to say that the only reason God orchestrated the first Exodus was so that we might know that Jesus is the true Son of God and that all Christians are God’s Israelites, regardless of ethnicity. Revelation 5:10


As well, the Apostle Paul argues very clearly that the promises to Abraham were fulfilled in Christ.

Galatians 3.16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.

Paul explains what he means. The promises given to Abraham were promises to be fulfilled by Jesus. 2 Corinthians 1:20

They were given before Moses and they were fulfilled in Christ. Jesus is Abraham’s true Son, he is “the seed” promised to Abraham and we Christians are the people of many nations, his descendants by faith. Genesis 17:6-7


The New Covenant between God and His faithful Christian people, is the fulfillment and renewal of the Abrahamic Covenant and the Abrahamic covenant was the fulfillment and renewal of the gracious covenant made with Adam after the fall.

 

[Guojing]

Jesus is the Israel of God

It is the premise of this article that Jesus Christ is the true Israel of God and that everyone who is united to Him through faith becomes, by virtue of that union, an Israelite of God.

This means that it is error to look for, expect, hope for or desire a reconstitution of an ethnic Israel in the future. The New Covenant church is not something which God instituted until he could recreate a national people in Palestine, but rather, God only had a national people temporarily (from Moses to Christ) as a prelude to and foreshadowing of the creation of the New Covenant in which the ethnic distinctions which existed under Moses were fulfilled and abolished. Ephesians 2.11-22; Colossians 2:8 & 3:11

Matthew 2:14-15....Joseph takes Mary and Jesus to Egypt.....

In the Bible, the expression “out of Egypt” occurs more than 140 times. It is one of the defining facts of the existence of national Israel. When God gave the Law he said, “I am Yahweh your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt.” They were a redeemed people belonging to their Savior.

Thus it most significant when Matthew 2:15 quotes Hosea 11:1

That inspired interpretation of the Scriptures confirms it is our Lord Jesus and His followers, not the temporary, national, peoples; who is now the true Israel of God. Indeed it is not too much to say that the only reason God orchestrated the first Exodus was so that we might know that Jesus is the true Son of God and that all Christians are God’s Israelites, regardless of ethnicity. Revelation 5:10


As well, the Apostle Paul argues very clearly that the promises to Abraham were fulfilled in Christ.

Galatians 3.16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.

Paul explains what he means. The promises given to Abraham were promises to be fulfilled by Jesus. 2 Corinthians 1:20

They were given before Moses and they were fulfilled in Christ. Jesus is Abraham’s true Son, he is “the seed” promised to Abraham and we Christians are the people of many nations, his descendants by faith. Genesis 17:6-7


The New Covenant between God and His faithful Christian people, is the fulfillment and renewal of the Abrahamic Covenant and the Abrahamic covenant was the fulfillment and renewal of the gracious covenant made with Adam after the fall.

So when Paul said in Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Why is he praying that Israel might be saved, when we Christians are already saved?

 

[jgr]

Good point, I prefer the KJV version of 2 Corinthians 3:6 who correctly used the term "New Testament", I think almost every other version uses the term "New Covenant", which will mislead the English readers to think its the same as the term mentioned in Hebrews 8:8.

The New Testament is linked to the Body of Christ.

The New Covenant is made, and only made with national Israel.

The terms are interchangeable, synonymous, and one and the same.

A wide majority of versions translate the Greek as "New Covenant".

The New Testament/Covenant is made solely and exclusively with the Church, God's sole and exclusive Chosen People.

There are those who are misled.

Paul was not.

 

[Guojing]

The terms are interchangeable, synonymous, and one and the same.

A wide majority of versions translate the Greek as "new covenant".

The new testament/covenant is made solely and exclusively with the Church, God's sole and exclusive Chosen people.

There are those who are misled.

Paul was not.

You want them to be the same because it fits your doctrine.

 

[jgr]

You want them to be the same because it fits your doctrine.

Argue with the translators.

 

[Guojing]

Argue with the translators.

I follow the KJV, you are free to use other translations if you prefer.

 

[jgr]

I follow the KJV, you are free to use other translations if you prefer.

So do I, but use others at times for clarification.

So should you.

The NASB and YLT are recognized for translational accuracy.

Both translate the Greek as "New Covenant".

 

[Guojing]

So do I, but use others at times for clarification.

So should you.

The NASB and YLT are recognized for translational accuracy.

Both translate the Greek as "New Covenant".

As I have said, it fits your doctrine so I can understand why you prefer them in this case

 

[jgr]

As I have said, it fits your doctrine so I can understand why you prefer them in this case

The translators didn't get their doctrine from me.

 

[Guojing]

The translators didn't get their doctrine from me.

Never claimed they did that

 

[keras]

So when Paul said in Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Why is he praying that Israel might be saved, when we Christians are already saved?

Paul was praying for his Jewish people then.
But his prayer did not succeed and the apostate, atheistic, LBGT people who inhabit a small portion of the holy Land, are soon to be punished and only a Christian remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:11-13, Ezekiel 21:1-7

 

[BABerean2]

Good point, I prefer the KJV version of 2 Corinthians 3:6 who correctly used the term "New Testament", I think almost every other version uses the term "New Covenant", which will mislead the English readers to think its the same as the term mentioned in Hebrews 8:8.

The same Greek word "diatheke" is used in 2 Corinthians 3:6, and also in the verse below from Hebrews chapter 12.

G1242
διαθήκη
diathēkē
dee-ath-ay'-kay
From G1303; properly a disposition, that is, (specifically) a contract (especially a devisory will): - covenant, testament.
Total KJV occurrences: 33



2Co 3:6 WhoG3739 alsoG2532 hath made us ableG2427 G2248 ministersG1249 of the newG2537 testament;G1242 notG3756 of the letter,G1121 butG235 of the spirit:G4151 forG1063 theG3588 letterG1121 killeth,G615 butG1161 theG3588 spiritG4151 giveth life.G2227

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


.

 

[Guojing]

Paul was praying for his Jewish people then.
But his prayer did not succeed and the apostate, atheistic, LBGT people who inhabit a small portion of the holy Land, are soon to be punished and only a Christian remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:11-13, Ezekiel 21:1-7

So the term Israel can mean different things, depending on how you want it to fit whatever doctrine you want?

 

[Guojing]

The same Greek word "diatheke" is used in 2 Corinthians 3:6, and also in the verse below from Hebrews chapter 12.

G1242
διαθήκη
diathēkē
dee-ath-ay'-kay
From G1303; properly a disposition, that is, (specifically) a contract (especially a devisory will): - covenant, testament.
Total KJV occurrences: 33



2Co 3:6 WhoG3739 alsoG2532 hath made us ableG2427 G2248 ministersG1249 of the newG2537 testament;G1242 notG3756 of the letter,G1121 butG235 of the spirit:G4151 forG1063 theG3588 letterG1121 killeth,G615 butG1161 theG3588 spiritG4151 giveth life.G2227

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


.

As I said, I believe there is a reason why the KJV translators used the English word testament in 2 Cor 3:6, but used covenant in Hebrews 8:8.

If you disagree, I am fine. I wrote that post in support of another person's view, that God do not make covenants with the Body of Christ.

 

[Davy]

So you believe that there is a distinction between the nation Israel and God's Israel here?

Oh definitely! National Israel today as a majority still rejects Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah. It's easy to know that. That's why the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem today are preparing to build another temple and startup the old covenant worship again. They don't believe Messiah came yet. So who do you think God is going to send them instead, and they will believe on instead?

But the day will come when the majority of them will be turned to Jesus. That will happen on the day of Jesus' return.

 

[Guojing]

Oh definitely! National Israel today as a majority still rejects Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah. It's easy to know that. That's why the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem today are preparing to build another temple and startup the old covenant worship again. They don't believe Messiah came yet. So who do you think God is going to send them instead, and they will believe on instead?

But the day will come when the majority of them will be turned to Jesus. That will happen on the day of Jesus' return.

So whenever we read the term Israel in Scripture, how would you know which one the author had in mind?

 

[Davy]

So whenever we read the term Israel in Scripture, how would you know which one the author had in mind?

That understanding comes only through line upon line Bible study, in all of God's Word, even the somewhat boring history parts. (But I like history, so no problem for me.) And that of course is if God gives that understanding. We each must ask Him first, through His Son, and then get down to disciplined Bible study from Genesis all the way to the end of Revelation.

If you study the Old Testament, line upon line, you will discover that God split the original kingdom of Israel into two separate kingdoms (1 Kings 11). He did that because of how Solomon allowed his many pagan wives to bring in their false idol worship into Israel. But He did the split during the days of Rehoboam, the son of Solomon.

"kingdom of Judah" = capital city at Jerusalem. Tribes of Judah and Benjamin at first.

At that split is when God's Word begins to use terms like "Judah", "house of Judah", "Jerusalem", "Judea", "Aholibah", "stick of Judah", put for the southern kingdom.


"kingdom of Israel" = capital city at Samaria in the northern lands. The remaining tribes, ten of them, with one of the tribe of Ephraim God installed as king over them. His name was Jeroboam.

For the northern "kingdom of Israel", God began using terms like "Ephraim", and just "Israel", "Samaria", "Aholah", "house of Israel"; "stick of Joseph".


Because king Jeroboam of the northern "kingdom of Israel" feared many of the ten northern tribes he was over would join with the kingdom of Judah in the south, because Jerusalem is where it was required to worship God at that time, Jeroboam instead setup two golden calf idols in the north, at Bethel and Dan, and told the ten tribes to worship them. He also setup common priests of the people, which made the Levites in the north go south and join with Judah. The southern kingdom thus became mainly the 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. Small remnants of the northern ten tribes refused Jeroboam's gold calf idols, and they went south also to join with Judah.

The two kingdoms had war against each other.

Then God removed the ten tribe northern kingdom captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes. They never returned to the holy lands as a people, as God prophesied they would be scattered and lose their heritage as Israel because of their going after Baal and forgetting Him (Book of Hosea). They became lost. Thus the "lost ten tribes" idea. But Bible prophecies puts them mainly in the West, and to there is where The Gospel went to next after Jerusalem rejected it.

 

[Guojing]

That understanding comes only through line upon line Bible study, in all of God's Word, even the somewhat boring history parts. (But I like history, so no problem for me.) And that of course is if God gives that understanding. We each must ask Him first, through His Son, and then get down to disciplined Bible study from Genesis all the way to the end of Revelation.

If you study the Old Testament, line upon line, you will discover that God split the original kingdom of Israel into two separate kingdoms (1 Kings 11). He did that because of how Solomon allowed his many pagan wives to bring in their false idol worship into Israel. But He did the split during the days of Rehoboam, the son of Solomon.

"kingdom of Judah" = capital city at Jerusalem. Tribes of Judah and Benjamin at first.

At that split is when God's Word begins to use terms like "Judah", "house of Judah", "Jerusalem", "Judea", "Aholibah", "stick of Judah", put for the southern kingdom.


"kingdom of Israel" = capital city at Samaria in the northern lands. The remaining tribes, ten of them, with one of the tribe of Ephraim God installed as king over them. His name was Jeroboam.

For the northern "kingdom of Israel", God began using terms like "Ephraim", and just "Israel", "Samaria", "Aholah", "house of Israel"; "stick of Joseph".


Because king Jeroboam of the northern "kingdom of Israel" feared many of the ten northern tribes he was over would join with the kingdom of Judah in the south, because Jerusalem is where it was required to worship God at that time, Jeroboam instead setup two golden calf idols in the north, at Bethel and Dan, and told the ten tribes to worship them. He also setup common priests of the people, which made the Levites in the north go south and join with Judah. The southern kingdom thus became mainly the 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. Small remnants of the northern ten tribes refused Jeroboam's gold calf idols, and they went south also to join with Judah.

The two kingdoms had war against each other.

Then God removed the ten tribe northern kingdom captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes. They never returned to the holy lands as a people, as God prophesied they would be scattered and lose their heritage as Israel because of their going after Baal and forgetting Him (Book of Hosea). They became lost. Thus the "lost ten tribes" idea. But Bible prophecies puts them mainly in the West, and to there is where The Gospel went to next after Jerusalem rejected it.

Let me give you an example. Take romans 10:1, how could you reason which Israel is that Israel referring to?