Who [in America] Is Dying from COVID Now - Scientific American

[essentialsaltes]

Well, it looks as if the flu is now just about as deadly as Covid.

Not quite. This COVID winter may be just about as deadly as a bad flu year.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Well, it looks as if the flu is now just about as deadly as Covid. Seeing as the mean of 30,000 to 70,000 is 50,000. the big difference being that the flue is much more dangerous to children while children have almost no risk of death from Covid. Perhaps we should now focus on requiring flu vaccines for children and for government workers?

It would seem as if that information would warrant a more precision approach to viruses as opposed to either trying to downplay one in particular, or try to compare body counts from each.

I would agree that in terms of the Flu, vaccines are important for young ones and old people, for Covid, vaccines are important for old people.

If you're a 25 year old runner who's 165 pounds, you probably don't need to drastically alter your life for either (absent some immunocompromising condition)

But, there are some who are using the current (much milder) covid strains' data to try to vindicate their "covid is no big deal" stance of 2 years ago.

 

[mindlight]

You know, I can understand why someone might see me as a little selfish and not approve of my choice. I can understand and sympathize.

When those same people demand my ability to choose be taken from me....and they act as if I'm the stupid one....well...

My sympathy disappears and I suddenly don't think they deserve to have any say at all.







Oh I don't think we need that much. I promise there's plenty of folks who know. I bet with a handful of warrants, some carefully chosen teams, maybe 4 20 men teams, and about a week I could suss out the majority of the story.

You see when scientists reach the top of a small field....like viral epidemiology or whatever...and they're studying virus at the genetic level and manipulating it too...it's a relatively small well known community when we look at the top of that field.


They're associates, they respect each other, but they're essentially competitors. They only work so hard for the scientific acclaim, the reputation of one so distinguished. They work so hard for this because it ensures their place in a long chain of scientific history. Essentially....narcissistic nerds.

So when 4 of the top 20 or so of these people start emailing each other after looking at the genetics of the virus.....and they disagree.....the expected outcome is that they spend months or years gathering data, testing hypothesis, performing experiments....to prove themselves right and receive the acclaim.


What you don't expect to happen is to hear one say "let's talk about it in private" and 3 days later they all agree to sing the same story.


That's not a conspiracy theory....that's an actual conspiracy. Truth be told, blame for what I imagine is accidental lies in many places but these 4 or 5 could probably tell you if it came from the lab. One was so certain that he said the probability of the lab leak theory was 99% and wet market was 1%. The idea that those exact proteins could form in that exact configuration and this virus would just happen to have a receptor capable of binding that extremely unlikely combination....and then, beyond all chance, combine....in nature....

It was so unlikely that he didn't think it was worth even considering. He said he would only give it 1% because he knows it's possible he's wrong.


3 days later....same guy is telling the opposite story....and he's 100% sure now.

A circumstantial conspiracy argument with no real evidence. The experts (narcissistic nerds) might just agree that there is no point disputing the evidence on this one. This could be because it is counterproductive to their professional area or it could mean that the evidence is overwhelming. Either way there is nothing substantial here without definite witness statements or direct physical evidence.

 

[Ana the Ist]

A circumstantial conspiracy argument with no real evidence. The experts (narcissistic nerds) might just agree that there is no point disputing the evidence on this one. This could be because it is counterproductive to their professional area or it could mean that the evidence is overwhelming. Either way there is nothing substantial here without definite witness statements or direct physical evidence.

Well clearly there's only circumstantial evidence....if there was anything more, these people would be on trial for their lives.

This isn't some conspiracy theory about chemtrails or lizard people. It's about experts colluding to cover up a mistake that killed millions and would result in their executions if revealed.

There's plenty of evidence for the lab leak, from increased bulk medical supply purchases in China in late 2019 to the erasing of massive amounts of data regarding covid 19 from the Wuhan lab databases. Then you have the private emails of the experts themselves that they clearly never intended to make public along with deliberate control of the virus origin narrative.

It doesn't take a genius to put this together. Anyone with common sense can figure this out. They're still trying to convince people of a natural origin...you should have seen this one thread talking about geographic mapping of cases being clustered around the market instead of the lab. I'm serious, they claimed that because early known infections residing nearby the market and not the lab....we could safely say it began at the market, or else the early cases would have resided nearby the lab lol.

The only problem is that anyone can Google Earth or image search the Wuhan lab and see there aren't exactly any residential buildings nearby....I couldn't even find any in view of the lab. Clearly lab workers commuted from somewhere in town....perhaps close to the market.

I don't see any point of discounting the lab leak until they find the actual vector.

 

[Diamond7]

Being unvaccinated is still a major risk factor for dying from COVID.

Depends on who is doing the math. I heard more people die in the vaccinated group. This is hard to believe because they can sell a harmless placebo and make their money. So why would they want to harm people?

The people who have reactions are because of the way the vaccine reacts with their immunity system. If you get the virus then you have natural antibodies that are supposed to be more effective than the vaccine.

My father was a doctor and just about never got sick. He never in 50 years missed work for being sick. His belief was slow gradual exposure to build up your resistance. Even my wife and son believe that we need to be exposed so we can build up our resistance. If we try to quarantine ourselves we are putting ourselves at high risk because we have not established any resistance at all.

We see this in children who have been to preschool. They are much better equipped and more healthy than the children who were kept at home and never exposed to other children and their diseases.

 

[Diamond7]

narcissistic nerds

I see this word bounced around more than a ping pong ball and I still can not figure out what it means. But I do know that people are usually guilty of what they accuse others of.

Titus 1:15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Not quite. This COVID winter may be just about as deadly as a bad flu year.

or less much less deadly than a bad flu year according to the range you gave us which began at 30,000. As for children, covid thus far has proven to be much less deadly than a mild flu year. So rather than requiring Covid vaccinations for children we should require flu vaccinations for that age group. Old and unhealthy adults should get both.

 

[grasping the after wind]

It would seem as if that information would warrant a more precision approach to viruses as opposed to either trying to downplay one in particular, or try to compare body counts from each.

I would agree that in terms of the Flu, vaccines are important for young ones and old people, for Covid, vaccines are important for old people.

If you're a 25 year old runner who's 165 pounds, you probably don't need to drastically alter your life for either (absent some immunocompromising condition)

But, there are some who are using the current (much milder) covid strains' data to try to vindicate their "covid is no big deal" stance of 2 years ago.

And some that still believe covid is deadly for everyone. I agree that looking at the data when deciding one's course of action is probably better than acting out of fear, virtue signaling or some desire to hold on to one's preconcieved conclusions.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

And some that still believe covid is deadly for everyone. I agree that looking at the data when deciding one's course of action is probably better than acting out of fear, virtue signaling or some desire to hold on top one's prconcieved conclusions.

And that's a problem as well.

Society can't function if everyone is paranoid about the worst possible outcome that can happen to "the lowest common denominator" for lack of a better term.

I'd says that both sides took it too far in both directions.

We had one side pretending Covid was nothing more than the flu, and the other side pretending that it was super serious for everybody.

Neither were accurate.

 

[mindlight]

I see this word bounced around more than a ping pong ball and I still can not figure out what it means. But I do know that people are usually guilty of what they accuse others of.

Titus 1:15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.

It was not my phrase, you did not read the previous post.

 

[mindlight]

Depends on who is doing the math. I heard more people die in the vaccinated group. This is hard to believe because they can sell a harmless placebo and make their money. So why would they want to harm people?

The people who have reactions are because of the way the vaccine reacts with their immunity system. If you get the virus then you have natural antibodies that are supposed to be more effective than the vaccine.

My father was a doctor and just about never got sick. He never in 50 years missed work for being sick. His belief was slow gradual exposure to build up your resistance. Even my wife and son believe that we need to be exposed so we can build up our resistance. If we try to quarantine ourselves we are putting ourselves at high risk because we have not established any resistance at all.

We see this in children who have been to preschool. They are much better equipped and more healthy than the children who were kept at home and never exposed to other children and their diseases.

Your father's philosophy of exposure works on a general level and is generally the way I do things also. Continual but careful exposure combined with proper management of sleep, stress, exercise, and diet are the crucial contributors to strengthening an immune system. But vaccines also equip the immune system by training it to defend against a clear threat. Just wondering how the Aztecs could have prevented the smallpox devastation.

 

[mindlight]

Well clearly there's only circumstantial evidence....if there was anything more, these people would be on trial for their lives.

This isn't some conspiracy theory about chemtrails or lizard people. It's about experts colluding to cover up a mistake that killed millions and would result in their executions if revealed.

There's plenty of evidence for the lab leak, from increased bulk medical supply purchases in China in late 2019 to the erasing of massive amounts of data regarding covid 19 from the Wuhan lab databases. Then you have the private emails of the experts themselves that they clearly never intended to make public along with deliberate control of the virus origin narrative.

It doesn't take a genius to put this together. Anyone with common sense can figure this out. They're still trying to convince people of a natural origin...you should have seen this one thread talking about geographic mapping of cases being clustered around the market instead of the lab. I'm serious, they claimed that because early known infections residing nearby the market and not the lab....we could safely say it began at the market, or else the early cases would have resided nearby the lab lol.

The only problem is that anyone can Google Earth or image search the Wuhan lab and see there aren't exactly any residential buildings nearby....I couldn't even find any in view of the lab. Clearly lab workers commuted from somewhere in town....perhaps close to the market.

I don't see any point of discounting the lab leak until they find the actual vector.

Bulk purchases of medical supplies are not convincing by themselves and these occurred in February after the virus was already happening with its very high initial Case Fatality Rate. (Source Times Newspaper England)

The deletion of evidence from a database claim needs clarifying as it is normal to delete redundant data. The Chinese themselves have a plausible answer here:

Vicious slander 21: China tried to conceal information through various means, and asked the U.S. National Institute of Health (NIH) to delete the genome sequences of early COVID-19 cases.

Facts and truth: China has never covered up the information, and the relevant allegations have no factual basis, which are purely conspiracy theories.

◆It was reported that Chinese researchers in 2020 deleted some genome sequences of cases from the early stage of the outbreak, which had been uploaded onto the database maintained by the U.S. National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI), a branch of the NIH. It was speculated that China has concealed some information about the origins of the virus. The Chinese side has conducted a thorough investigation. The report mentions the deletion of SARS-CoV-2 sequences, which is relevant to a paper titled "Nanopore target sequencing for accurate and comprehensive detection of SARS-CoV-2 and other respiratory viruses" published by researchers from Wuhan University in the international scientific journal "Small." When they made a submission in March 2020, the sequencing results were needed. Therefore, the researchers uploaded their concrete sequencing results of the virus onto the database of the NCBI.

On June 9, 2020, the journal sent back to the researchers the proofread paper, where they found the information about where they had uploaded the sequencing results of samples from confirmed cases had been deleted. The researchers thought that since the information about the sequencing was deleted, it was unnecessary to keep those sequencing results on the NCBI. They sent an email to the NIH on June 16 to request the removal of the data. The NIH followed the protocol and deleted the data without notice. The researchers had absolutely no need, or intention, to hide or conceal any information. Recently, they uploaded all 242 pieces of sequencing data of 61 COVID-19 samples onto the GSA database built by the China National Center for Bioinformation, which is open to global researchers.

It is also understood that the earliest sampling in the case was done on Jan. 30, 2020, some time after the initial outbreak. So the sequences cannot count as early ones and thus have limited value or information regarding the study of SARS-CoV-2 origins. However, Jesse Bloom, a U.S. researcher with the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center, fabricated the conspiracy theory that this was an attempted cover-up, without any confirmation from the Chinese researchers and with absolutely no understanding the background context of the matter. His actions deviated from the truth and violated scientific ethics, and have been criticized by experts from various countries.

U.S. vicious slanders on China over COVID-19 origins tracing and the truth

Add in obvious factors in the China context of political officials covering their backsides regarding how they handled the crisis, since they persecuted the doctors raising the alarm bells in the early stages.

In both cases this is again circumstantial conjecture.

The notion that all the "infected" lab workers lived in the market area is just ludicrous and especially since none of the workers at the lab have been proven to have actually gotten covid

 

[Ana the Ist]

Bulk purchases of medical supplies are not convincing by themselves and these occurred in February after the virus was already happening with its very high initial Case Fatality Rate. (Source Times Newspaper England)

Wrong! Try May 2019...

China PCR test orders soared before first confirmed COVID case

Report on government contracts show surges in Wuhan-area purchases from May 2019

asia.nikkei.com

That's right...their 2019 purchases of testing equipment was double the size of 2018. That's odd. Was it hospitals in China driving the uptick? Nope. Military and government officials. That's odd. It's as if they were preparing for a mass deployment.

Since you're already demonstrating how uninformed you are with this first claim....do I really need to explain the second? Cam you perhaps go outside your mainstream sources, dig around for as much information as possible, then come back if you think you're ready to discuss evidence? Or if you find evidence that China wiped relevant data....you can just come back and say you were wrong?

This gives you a chance to correct yourself....instead of relying upon me to do it. Isn't that nice?

I only glanced at this stuff you wrote about information being deleted in 2020...while I just handed you information indicating the possibility of China knowing about the outbreak in 2019. Seems a bit unfair to just continue dunking on you about information you clearly didn't know. I'm offering you a chance to catch yourself up.

 

[Diamond7]

Just wondering how the Aztecs could have prevented the smallpox devastation.

They did not have the smallpox. That was brought here after Columbus discovered America.

 

[Diamond7]

It was not my phrase, you did not read the previous post.

yes, you were quoting someone

 

[mindlight]

Wrong! Try May 2019...

China PCR test orders soared before first confirmed COVID case

Report on government contracts show surges in Wuhan-area purchases from May 2019

asia.nikkei.com

That's right...their 2019 purchases of testing equipment was double the size of 2018. That's odd. Was it hospitals in China driving the uptick? Nope. Military and government officials. That's odd. It's as if they were preparing for a mass deployment.

Since you're already demonstrating how uninformed you are with this first claim....do I really need to explain the second? Cam you perhaps go outside your mainstream sources, dig around for as much information as possible, then come back if you think you're ready to discuss evidence? Or if you find evidence that China wiped relevant data....you can just come back and say you were wrong?

This gives you a chance to correct yourself....instead of relying upon me to do it. Isn't that nice?

I only glanced at this stuff you wrote about information being deleted in 2020...while I just handed you information indicating the possibility of China knowing about the outbreak in 2019. Seems a bit unfair to just continue dunking on you about information you clearly didn't know. I'm offering you a chance to catch yourself up.

Do ad hominem arguments ever work out for you as a style, just wondering. Seems like a clumsy way to argue a case.

So you want to talk about yet another circumstantial argument, this one at root based on an analysis of expenditure by Internet 2.0

https://internet2-0.com/PCR%20Purchasing%20Report%20Wuhan%20China.pdf

Look at the numbers in their report and you will see rises of 90% in expenditure in years before 2019. The fact that Wuhan is a major hub of scientific research (3rd in China) is also an important factor here. China has steadily raised health and research expenditures over the last 2 decades so rises are expected. You would expect hubs and research centers to receive larger rises than peripheral operations. The report draws unwarranted conclusions, makes no scientific claims about the origins of covid, and postulates an earlier date purely on the basis of purchases. That is simple guessing after the event and could well be entirely coincidental.

The fact is that there are political motivations both from the West and China to obscure the truth here. All the evidence is circumstantial and inconclusive and you can draw no definite conclusions from it.

More balanced overviews of the lab leak theory based on the science involved have been released by nature magazine

The COVID lab-leak hypothesis: what scientists do and don’t know

Nature examines arguments that the coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 escaped from a lab in China, and the science behind them.

www.nature.com

The American intelligence community considered the lab theory but most agencies thought that unlikely and all considered the overall level of evidence inconclusive.

https://www.dni.gov/files/ODNI/documents/assessments/Unclassified-Summary-of-Assessment-on-COVID-19-Origins.pdf

The Chinese also have plausible rebuttals to most possible accusations here.

U.S. vicious slanders on China over COVID-19 origins tracing and the truth

 

[mindlight]

They did not have the smallpox. That was brought here after Columbus discovered America.

Cortes brought smallpox to the Asteks in about 1519. However healthy these people were they had no immunity against it. They never stood a chance and were completely devastated. This is what a pandemic looks like when raging among an unvaccinated population. It completely destroyed their civilization.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Luckily, I think we're to a point now where it actually has made it to a point of being an individual risk assessment situation and has finally become more like the flu.

Early on, a good externalities argument could be made for restrictions/mandates/etc...

But I think that the current level of vaccination coverage combined with prior community has done enough to create enough immunity in the population that we don't have to worry about overrunning hospitals...in addition to the more mild variants in circulation which has also helped matters.

I think we are to the place where one can confidently say to an unvaccinated person "it's on you, dude...do what you want"



But something that does concern me is that amid the political bickering and other societal arguments going on, conversations about proper oversight of labs and wet markets have fallen by the wayside. ...and if the focus on prevention of new viruses emerging isn't what it should be, we could be doomed to repeat that whole thing again some day. And the next one could be worse.

We were always at that place to say to competent adults "it's on you, dude...do what you want". Unlike some, I trust adults to make the own decisions for themselves and do not believe they need governmental oversight and management.

 

[rambot]

Depends on who is doing the math. I heard more people die in the vaccinated group. This is hard to believe because they can sell a harmless placebo and make their money. So why would they want to harm people?

1) No it doesn't depend on whose doing the math. Really, it depends on how well people understand the math...for example:
2) More people die in the vaccinated group because there are FAR more vaccinated people.

The people who have reactions are because of the way the vaccine reacts with their immunity system. If you get the virus then you have natural antibodies that are supposed to be more effective than the vaccine.

Yes, once you get the virus, your body can make antibodies. I'm not sure how the antibodies would be any different since the mechanism they are using is virtually identical to what your body normally uses.... but I have heard the same.

My father was a doctor and just about never got sick. He never in 50 years missed work for being sick. His belief was slow gradual exposure to build up your resistance. Even my wife and son believe that we need to be exposed so we can build up our resistance. If we try to quarantine ourselves we are putting ourselves at high risk because we have not established any resistance at all.

In my province there is this small town where folks had that attitude. The logic is sound, I grant. And hte people were committed. People started having "chicken pox parties"/"COVID parties".
Sadly, the result of one of these parties was that 3 attendies were hospitalized and several others passed away.

We see this in children who have been to preschool. They are much better equipped and more healthy than the children who were kept at home and never exposed to other children and their diseases.

I see the logic here but do you have sources for these claims?
When I did a quick search, all I read was homeschooling people saying that their kids "were healthier" (ie...didn't get COVID AS quickly...of course; less exposure).

What you are explaining seems more appropriate for diseases where there may be some latent historical antibodies (things like seasonal flu, etc...)

 

[DaisyDay]

We were always at that place to say to competent adults "it's on you, dude...do what you want". Unlike some, I trust adults to make the own decisions for themselves and do not believe they need governmental oversight and management.

No, the problem was that at the start of the pandemic and at its peaks, covid patients were overwhelming the hospitals and morgues, to the point where non-covid patients and corpses were unable to get the care they needed. This is what made covid a public health emergency.