Thanks, but I don't think I really fit in anywhere. It's OKay though. I have Christ, and I'm happy at my church even though I disagree with them on the eternal fiery burning torturous torment of the lost.
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Who goes to hell?
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he-man
he-man
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Originally Posted by TimothewThanks, but I don't think I really fit in anywhere. It's OKay though. I have Christ, and I'm happy at my church even though I disagree with them on the eternal fiery burning torturous torment of the lost.
I said I don't believe in hell because I don't believe in the traditional notion of hell as a place where the dead are alive and tortured forever until judgment day when they are finally judged for what they did and then sent back to torture-land for more torture.
If by "Hell" you were referring to "Sheol", Then I would have to change my answer. Everyone eventually dies and goes to Sheol (the grave). But Jesus said that there is a day when eveyone who is in the grave will hear his voice and come out. The resurrection day. Some come out to eternal life, and some do not receive eternal life.
If by "Hell" you were referring to "Sheol", Then I would have to change my answer. Everyone eventually dies and goes to Sheol (the grave). But Jesus said that there is a day when eveyone who is in the grave will hear his voice and come out. The resurrection day. Some come out to eternal life, and some do not receive eternal life.
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Sadalmelik
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(heman)Originally Posted by Timothew
I said I don't believe in hell because I don't believe in the traditional notion of hell as a place where the dead are alive and tortured forever until judgment day when they are finally judged for what they did and then sent back to torture-land for more torture.
If by "Hell" you were referring to "Sheol", Then I would have to change my answer. Everyone eventually dies and goes to Sheol (the grave). But Jesus said that there is a day when eveyone who is in the grave will hear his voice and come out. The resurrection day. Some come out to eternal life, and some do not receive eternal life.
(jrog)
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I take exception to the last sentence above... "Some come out to eternal life, and some do not receive eternal life. "
To begin with no FINITE can validly use the word "ETERNAL", as NO ONE can explain how GOD (nor anything else), can BE "WITHOUT BEGINNING"... which is as much a part of HIS PERPETUAL EXISTENCE as is, "WITHOUT END"!
If you percieve you may have "ETERNAL" life, it is not a (as viewed from the FINITE) "from now-on" proposal...
...it is (as viewed from the ETERNAL) an "ALWAYS IS" ("I AM") proposal. That men CENTER upon themselves as "accomplishing" the final seal of SALVATION (by THEIR "acceptance" of CHRIST), ...is the SELF-ORIENTED FALLACY upon which the Christian religion stands...
To repeat an earlier portion that I shared earlier:
The BOTTOM LINE:
The MISSION of CHRIST was to SAVE the WORLD -- John 3:16-17 -- John 1:29 -- Luke 19:10 -- 1 John 4:14 -- Either He SUCCEEDED or He FAILED... and if CHRIST FAILED, ...to SAVE the WORLD, ...then the SENDER of Him (YHVH God) also FAILED. Sorry but that makes NO SENSE (REASON) whatsoever -- Isaiah 1:18
MODERN Christianity has PERVERTED the message AND the result of the MISSION.
The WORD says that LOVE (the SENDER of CHRIST) NEVER FAILS -- 1 Cor 13:8
Argue if you must, ...but the TRUTH is that LOVE would not embark upon a mission that COULD NOT be accomplished... nor,
IN FOREKNOWN FUTILITY, ...send His SON on a mission that would result in a MAJORITY FAILURE.
(end of THE "BOTTOM LINE")
JESUS came to TAKE AWAY the SIN of the WORLD (not just those who center upon themselves as having become "SAVED" by their "decision for CHRIST") -- John 1:29 -- If indeed HE DID accomplish this WORK (taking AWAY the SIN of the WORLD), as was CLEARLY prophesied by John the Baptist, then in the final result, ...there is NOT even ONE SIN available, to CONDEMN anyone...
"ETERNAL" LIFE, is LIFE that is NOT JUST "WITHOUT END"... but is "WITHOUT BEGINNING" as well...
ALL life which we observe, is a REVELATION of LIFE which exists WITHOUT BEGINNING (for in the KNOWLEDGE of GOD, all things are EXISTENT in that KNOWLEDGE), ...and the SIN which has introduces DEATH, is an INTREGAL part of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... which GOD KNOWS (and has ALWAYS known), His WORD KNOWS (and has ALWAYS known), and now ALL of His LIVING SONS have come to "KNOW"...
The Parable of the LOST (= #G622 - APOLLUMI = DESTROYED) Son (which pertains to ALL MEN) -- Luke 15:11-32 -- notes that this SON was WITH the Father, ...then he LEFT, ...and then he RETURNED to where He was...
His LIFE did not BEGIN" in the "FAR COUNTRY"... it had NO BEGINNING, for He was, is and always will be WITH the FATHER (which IS "ETERNAL LIFE"), except during his journey in the "FAR COUNTRY"... in his part of the DIVINE display of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... without this display which requires EXPERIENCE, then the "knowledge" is nothing but UNEXPERIENCED information.
Even so, even during our JOURNEY apart from the Father, He via His LOVE has, is and always will be WITH US! It is the RECALL of LOVE, which the Son KNEW prior to the Journey into the Far Country... that DREW Him back!
Therefore, that which is LOST (destroyed), is in conclusion, FOUND (restored)... this "restoring" is not privy to, nor is in ANY PART due to the DOINGS of any Human being... but is exampled in ALL Human beings (first LOST in the flesh, then FOUND in the Spirit), ...which prior to their experience AS "Human beings", were (in the SPIRIT) DIVINE SONS ...and which ALL were WITH the Father -- Job 38:7
ALL "restoration" OF ALL of THEM, is due not IN ANY PART to the individually LOST/DESTROYED Sons, but ENTIRELY due to the DOINGS of YHVH God (LOVE)...WITHOUT respect of persons (Sons) -- Acts 10:34 -- Prov 28:21 (and 8 others)
peace...
...willieH
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Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. John 17:3
They who know God will have eternal life. By logical extension they who do not know God will not have eternal life.
They who know God will have eternal life. By logical extension they who do not know God will not have eternal life.
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You need more than your own, "logical extension"...
You would be wise to find the "extension" that the Scriptures NOTE concerning "knowing God"And UNLESS you have ALWAYS "known" GOD (which you HAVE NOT), there was a process that you went through before "knowing Him"... it kinda goes like THIS:
To begin with:
IMPARTIALITY (God's - [not YOUR] position concerning each one) -- Acts 10:34 -- Prov 28:21 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- Mark 12:14 -- Eph 6:9 -- Gal 2:6 -- rom 2:11 -- Job 34:19 -- Col 3:25 -- 2 Chron 19:7 -- There is NO RESPECT of PERSONS (partiality) with GOD... so ALL are considered the SAME... by HIM, (not the one attempting "logical extension" via comparing himself to others, assuming that they either do not or will not EVER "know God")
INITIATION (beginning to "know")-- John 6:44 -- No man CAN KNOW God or COME to CHRIST, unless GOD DRAWS ("drag" in Greek) them to His Son...
REVELATION -- Matt 11:27 (unveiling YHVH as the TRUE God) -- No man CAN KNOW God, until CHRIST reveals Him to them...
CREATING FAITH (to believe) -- Heb 12:2 -- No man can BEGIN his own "faith", it must be INITIATED by CHRIST ...which then gives the ability to BELIEVE in the WORD of TRUTH... and additionally, it is not "OUR" FAITH that saves us, it is HIS -- Gal 2:20 -- "I live by the faith OF the Son of God" -- Rom 3:22 -- "...by the faith OF JESUS CHRIST..." -- Rev 14:12 -- "...that keep the commandments of God and the faith OF JESUS"
REPENTENCE -- Rom 2:4 -- No man "REPENTS" of Himself... he/she is LED to that REPENTENCE "by the GOODNESS of GOD" ...which includes:
CONFESSION -- 1 Cor 12:3 -- (unto SALVATION -- Rom 10:9-13 -- with the mouth that CHRIST is the Son of God) -- No man can DO THIS of himself, said confession is the work of the HOLY SPIRIT, as NO MAN can call JESUS Lord of himself.
ALL ...will "know" GOD -- Phil 2:10-11 -- Rom 14:11 -- Is 45:23 -- and CONFESS that JESUS is LORD by the WORK of GOD in each, thereby HE, being THE SAVIOR, (and not YOU, because YOU think YOU initiated your SALVATION via your own VAIN "DOINGS")... regardless of YOUR present, ..."logical extensions"...
Peace...
...willieH
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You look at our conversation differently than do I, brother. I do not "argue" with you, I present you the Scriptures, in hopes you shall SEE them, that they may WORK in your heart and in your experience.
Much of Christianity, is relegated to a "social experience"... which I do not put down, but certainly should be a very DISTANT SECOND to the pursuit of TRUTH which should be at the very TOP of our list of desires.
The church potluck or game night or prayer meeting are healthy activities, but certainly NOT to the REASON we pursue God... The pursuit of TRUTH in any area of our lives is ultimately the MOST IMPORTANT facet of FAITH... and information concerning it is all I endeavor to offer you.
You claim that by "logical extension" those who do not "KNOW" God shall "eternally perish"... and yet... there was a time when you and I were both numbered with those who "did not KNOW" hIM... yet here we are today... both BELIEVERS IN HIM... and that "belief" we have is NOT of our own doing... ALL shall KNOW HIM, and this will be TESTIFIED in DUE TIME -- 1 Tim 2:6 ---- PRAISE His name
YHVH So please do not look upon my responses to you as HOSTILE... they are intended to show you things, that obviously you do not SEE... one of which is our "logic" only being vailid if it is in agreement with Scripture -- Isaiah 1:18
Answer me one question bro...
GOD sent His Son to SAVE the WORLD...
Can you even consider that He might FAIL to do so?
I cannot... as LOVE NEVER ...FAILS !! -- 1 Cor 13:8 -- Col 1:20
If JESUS did not, in the end result... SAVE the WORLD... then the mission intended to do so, was therefore a FAILURE... on both the part of the SENDER (YHVH God), and SENDEE (JESUS)!
Please listen to REASON bro... for DEEP SHAME, awaits those who do not give ear...
pEACE...
...willieH
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I don't want to disagree with you...I have my hands full with the fire and brimstone preachers.
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he-man
he-man
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Can you even consider that he will not?
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
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Though it is often hard for you and I to communicate, I'll try one more time...
No offense brother, but this post seem quite disoriented and garbled to me...
...It appears that you in fact CONSIDER that GOD/LOVE can FAIL?He-man -- "Can you even consider that he will not?"[fail] -- do you actually think GOD can FAIL?
AND, ...Where do you get the idea that "JUDGMENT" is a NEGATIVE THING? Especially when JUDGMENT is very favorably spoken of... and its SPIRITUAL PURPOSE is RESTORATION and CORRECTION! -- Isaiah 26:9 -- clearly notes that RIGHTEOUSNESS is the RESULT of "earthly inhabitants" "exposure" to it!
Then you quote this:
You seem to cherry pick often, bro... hoping to make your points valid.
Actually this word translated "destroyed" is NOT what you percieve it to be... it means EXTIRPATE (removed as in surgery)... which is NOT commonly used where "destroyed" or "destruction" is alluded to in the NT... these words are APOLEIA, and/or its ROOT -- APOLLUMI...
The LOST (APOLLUMI) Son was DESTROYED but eventually RECOVERED by the LOVE of the Father -- Luke 15:11-32
The context does not call for a VIOLENT, or PERMANENT, ..."DESTRUCTION" as much as it appeals to DISFELLOWSHIPPING, which has been often done in Christian circles.
No allusion to an ETERNAL situation is made in this text. Matter of fact, a few verses later, it says THIS:
Acts 3:25 -- Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, ...saying unto Abraham --- And IN thy seed shall ...ALL the KINDREDS [families] of the earth ...be BLESSED...
Not DESTROYED.
And just before -- Acts 3:23 -- Is this statement made:
Acts 3:21 -- Whom the heaven must recieve until the time of the ...RESTITUTION of ALL THINGS... which God hath SPOKEN [promise of this restitution] by the mouth of ...ALL... His Holy Prophets since the world began.
RESTITUTION means -- RESTORING...
Permanent "DESTRUCTION" is absolutely NOT the premise of this context!
Peace...
...willieH
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...those are of the most decieved of men... "burning" everyone but themselves... As I said, I write for all... but in answering you, just offer information. If you choose to ignore it, that is your decision... but you have been warned.
I pretty much asked you ONE simple (yes or no) QUESTION! ...and it is too much for you to answer?
...are you being HONEST?Or is it that a truthful and HONEST answer, will require a change in your present theology?
JESUS was sent to SAVE the WORLD... Do you indeed advocate that He FAILED to do so, Tim?
...YES or NO?
Any excuse that says it is too much to "type" ...YES or NO... because "you have your hands full with "Fire & Brimstone" preachers, is an extraordinarily WEAK excuse.
PEACE...
...willieH
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Please Willie, You are a good friend. I honestly believe that there is only eternal life in Christ, but there are some who reject Christ and will reject Christ forever. It's sad, but in rejecting Jesus Christ, they also reject the only way to receive eternal life. Since they don't have eternal life, they die. I don't see how to read the scriptures any other way. Yes, Christ saves the world, and He allows those who want to have nothing to do with Him to leave. Some people would rather leave and die than have anything to do with Jesus Christ.
As I said, I write for all... but in answering you, just offer information. If you choose to ignore it, that is your decision... but you have been warned.
I pretty much asked you ONE simple (yes or no) QUESTION! ...and it is too much for you to answer?
Or is it that a truthful and HONEST answer, will require a change in your present theology?
JESUS was sent to SAVE the WORLD... Do you indeed advocate that He FAILED to do so, Tim?
...YES or NO?
Any excuse that says it is too much to "type" ...YES or NO... because "you have your hands full with "Fire & Brimstone" preachers, is an extraordinarily WEAK excuse.
PEACE...
...willieH
I wasn't giving you a weak excuse, I was telling you the reason. Another reason I don't want to argue with you is that I don't want to lose such a good friend over this. I am sympathetic towards the christian universalist position, I just can't see it in scripture. I don't see a pressing need to try to convince you when there are fire and brimstone preachers all over the forum, deceived by the serpent and deceiving others as fast as they can.
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dollarsbill
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"Who goes to hell?"
Jesus said it will be those who don't do the will of God. Most don't have a clue what God's will is.
Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Jesus said it will be those who don't do the will of God. Most don't have a clue what God's will is.
Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
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he-man
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Quit putting words in my mouth, it was you who suggested god could fail.Though it is often hard for you and I to communicate, I'll try one more time...
No offense brother, but this post seem quite disoriented and garbled to me...
Originally Posted by WillieHAnswer me one question bro... GOD sent His Son to SAVE the WORLD... Can you even consider that He might FAIL to do so? willieH
I said, "Can you even consider that he will not"?
Joh 12:47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed <G1842> from among the people.
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G1842 εξολεθρευθησεται extermination, total destruction, annihilation, elimination [/FONT][/FONT]
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dollarsbill
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It doesn't??? If they are not in God's Kingdom then where are they?
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Where does the verse say they are? It doesn't say they are in hell. You made that up yourself.
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