dollarsbill
Well-Known Member
Guess you forgot about the Scriptures I already quoted. How about another?
Matthew 5:22
22 and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
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Who goes to hell?
- Thread starter truthseeker32
- Start date
Matthew 5:22
22 and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
The verse actually says "the fire of gehenna". (την γεενναν του πυρος
Gehenna is a valley SW of Jerusalem. The fires there consumed dead bodies. This verse actually confirms what I've been saying.
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dollarsbill
Well-Known Member
Those who called others 'fool' were thrown in the dump?The verse actually says "the fire of gehenna". (την γεενναν του πυρος
Gehenna is a valley SW of Jerusalem. The fires there consumed dead bodies. This verse actually confirms what I've been saying.
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The dead bodies of executed criminals were said to have been dumped there, yes.
But I never said it was the dump.
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dollarsbill
Well-Known Member
Those who called others 'fool' were thrown into the fire? Please elaborate.
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Do you not understand the hyperbolic language in the gospels? Jesus is saying even if you merely say "you fool" you will be found guilty in the court and sentenced to death. (And therefore thrown into the fires that are in gehenna)
All of us have done much worse things than call someone "fool", even right here on CF. The only chance for any of us to escape from the condemnation of death (remember that the wages of sin is death) is to repent and have Jesus pay the penalty of our sins. (Which is death, He paid by his death on the cross).
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First, I am not trying to douse friendships... we are discussing a topic.
Second, No man can make a JUDGMENT of another and is INSTRUCTED not to do so.
Third, "believing" something, does NOT make it so. 2/3's of the world DO NOT BELIEVE... does their MASSIVE UNBELIEF of CHRIST, make YHVH GOD and His WORD, therefore non-existent? Based upon the "alternatives" they DO BELIEVE? Please!
Fourth, NO MAN has the comprehension of "FOREVER", as it includes WITHOUT BEGINNING as well as WITHOUT END... until ANYONE can explain how GOD (or anyone or anything) can be WITHOUT BEGINNING, then they utilize a word (and apply it to themselves and others) which they do NOT COMPREHEND, ...which only avails that foolish "utilization" as therefore INVALID.
Tim said:
Tim get ahold of your thinking.
Do you not KNOW that YOU were once numbered with those who "reject"? And beside that, it is NOT OUR DOING that removes us from a "rejection position"... that is GOD's doing, as SALVATION is STRICTLY ...HIS WORK -- Eph 2:8-9 -- which is unfolded in EACH MAN, to be TESTIFIED in due time -- 1 Tim 2:3-6 -- Even YOUR OWN individual experience shows that there was a time you DID NOT BELIEVE, yet today... a TESTIMONY which comes forth from YOU, has come ...IN DUE TIME... according to GOD, not you.
Tim said:
ALL men DIE ...IN ADAM... and (that same) ALL men are MADE ALIVE ...IN... CHRIST -- 1 Cor 15:28
Tim said:
Oh really? ...In one moment (probably MYRIADS of moments in the past), you would READ (if you bothered at all) the Scriptures, and they SAID NOTHING to you... and now you "know-ALL" concerning them?
Any man which thinks he/she has arrived at a place BEYOND --- Learning and/or Correction, has thoroughly DECIEVED himself.
Honestly, ...Do you really and truly think that the WHOLE of the Scriptures are COMPLETELY REVEALED to you Tim?
If they are NOT COMPLETELY revealed to you, then you certainly DO HAVE learning and correction, coming forth from them.
I am 66 years old Tim, and my life was 30 years long before I was called to seek the LIGHT of God...
During those 30 years, I did not care in the least about a "God", ...nor was I inclined to hear of His "requirements" of me (or anyone), for He did not even EXIST, and as far as I was concerned -- He was NOTHING but a MYTH to me.
But in the 36 years following, I have dedicated a DILIGENT and DAILY regimen of study, and He is become EVERYTHING to me...
Tim said:
Please quote the Scripture that SAYS this?
...Once, ...YOU "wanted NOTHING to do with Him, Tim! Tim said:
Explain how CHRIST has "saved the WORLD" (which means "CREATION" = KOSMOS -- #G2889), Tim, and yet you believe that MOST of the "world" (supposedly saved by Him), is NOT SAVED? Where is the REASON in that, Tim? -- Isaiah 1:18
What do you do with -- John 1:29? If SIN is TAKEN AWAY, what is left to condemn men? What do you do with -- 1 Cor 15:22, 28, 54? And what do you do with -- 1 John 2:2? Acts 3:21 -- Col 1:20? Will you throw out -- 1 Pet 3:9 -- as well? (the word "Not WILLING" is BOULEMA, which means ...INTENT -- Look it up!)
It is ALL in there bro, you just have not yet been given the vision of it,
and you will NOT be given it, until you submit to GOD that you and your present viewpoints are INCOMPLETE, and in need of MORE of Him.Tim said:
Tim... that you cannot see this "UR position" NOW, does not mean (unless you already, "KNOW-ALL"), that this shall never come to light in your experience.
In the VERY SAME WAY, that once CHRIST was meaningless to you before
(1) - YHVH God brought you to Him -- John 6:44 -- and then
(2) - CHRIST brought you to the Father -- Matt 11:27 -- and then
(3) - CHRIST authored FAITH in you that you would BELIEVE -- Heb 12:2 -- and then,
(4) - YHVH God then, via HIS GOODNESS (not yours) led you to repent -- Rom 2:4 -- and after your "repentence",
(5) - YHVH moved your MOUTH to CONFESS that JESUS is Lord -- 1 Cor 12:3 -- and,
thereby SALVATION entered into your (at the moment, "NON-BELIEVING" -- "NATURALLY FLESHLY" and "REJECTING") experience! -- Rom 10:9-13
Where were YOU making all these changes in yourself (by YOU changing your "rejection posture") in this Tim? Nah!
God flat out states that YOU did not have any part in IT -- Eph 2:8-9
Tim said:
You don't see a pressing need to convince me? And yet you call me friend? Hey, anyone which will LISTEN, can change (according to YHVH), but anyone which has CLOSED his/her ears, will remain partially on the prideful and FOUL foundation of INCOMPLETION...
Hey, any and ALL of us are "pressing needs", which GOD is MOLDING... as CHRIST sent His followers to ALL CREATURES -- Mark 16:15 -- which means HIS WORDS would be presented to them, and that each man was INTENDED to hear them.
The WORD which is LOVE, ...NEVER FAILS wherever it is sent -- 1 Cor 13:8 -- Isaiah 55:11 -- It did not IN YOUR "CASE", nor MINE, nor shall it fail IN ANY OTHER "case".
In TRUTH, ...You do not "convince me", nor do I "convince you"... and it is not our job to "convince"... it is our job to SEEK YHVH and His WORD, and thereby present ALL that we find, as best as we can SEE. We are to GROW in that WORD as well, and if we are not FED, then we remain INFANTS in it on its MILK... stagnant, and immature, as well as presenting FALLACIES which SHALL be dealt with -- Matt 7:22-23 -- You and I can either LISTEN or SPEAK... but LISTENING trumps SPEAKING.
In my own testimony, it was MANY YEARS, before I spoke, as I LISTENED via the SEARCH we are instructed to make, of the WHOLE HEART -- Jer 29:13-14
If we are SERVANTS which are TRUE in Heart... then, in humility we shall stand upon what we BELIEVE as we, in humility LOOK FOR MORE... seeking in that pursuit that we might gain further REVELATION and futher CORRECTION, that the content of our sharing with others becomes MORE and MORE PURE, and coinciding with GOD and HIS TRUTH.
Hey brother, wherever ANY of us are VEILED in our observations, ...we are DECIEVED -- Jer 17:9 -- For we have not the REVELATION of TRUTH in that part. Which is WHY, ...JESUS instructed us to NOT JUDGE! -- Matt 7:1
We MUST NOT -- STAGNATE in our search, thinking we have "arrived"...
I learn EVERY DAY from God, via His WORD, LISTENING in prayer, and brothers such as yourself.
Often times MANY are not even aware of TEACHING that is able to even come via SELF, ...TO unto SELF...
Not desiring to "CONVINCE", ...rather, ...to SHARE... I wish you,
PEACE bro...
...willieH
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You do not READ what is said... You just "jump into the pool" without SEEING if there is WATER in it!
Had you actually READ what I said, then you would have SEEN THIS:
What part of the "I CANNOT" above (not to mention -- LOVE never FAILS), ...do you fail to understand, "hee-man"?
I stand upon the ACCOMPLISHED MISSION of CHRIST -- Luke 19:10 -- John 3:16-17 -- John 1:29 -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- 1 John 4:14 -- which is the SALVATION of the (entire) WORLD (KOSMOS #G2889 -- Creation)
Which IS the GOSPEL, ...whereas you (much like a bull in a china shop) just wish to BARGE IN, and ARGUE religious views which hardly ever make any SENSE at all -- Isaiah 1:18 --
You are (IMHO) the largest ENIGMA on this entire forum bro...
PEACE...
...willieH
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Willie, If what you say is true, I'll get there eventually and believe as you do.
If not, then you and I will have a laugh in our father's kingdom about the things we used to believe.
Either way, you and I will remain good friends.
If not, then you and I will have a laugh in our father's kingdom about the things we used to believe.
Either way, you and I will remain good friends.
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I sometimes write "LOL" on online stuff when I'm really just chuckling inside but this time I really did laugh out loud. I guess you have to be a motorcycle rider to think it's that funny. Good one, Tim
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Ishraqiyun
Fanning the Divine Spark
What would happen if a person prayed the following: " I have no idea whats true in the realm of religion but please have mercy on me and don't torture me God."? Would God grant that person mercy or would he instead torture him or her eternally because they lacked the right beliefs or because they failed to have the proper faith and trust in Jesus ?
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Ishraqiyun
Fanning the Divine Spark
It seems to me that the contemporary mainstream Christian view doesn't offer much hope to the majority of people. The eternal torture in hell idea coupled with the view that only the elect make it to heaven and the majority follow the "broad road" to eternal torture sounds more like bad news than good news to me. Sure a few people might escape and thats fine for them but for humanity as a whole it seems like an unmitigated disaster.
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Sadalmelik
Well-Known Member
uhhhh, was this supposed to be uplifting?
seriously though, im going to stick my neck out here and kinda agree with most of what you say, at least your premise.....sometimes after leaving cf i feel worse that when i came in here...the most uplifting part of my day is when im singing aloud to to God, listening to klove, and no one can hear me but Him....trust me, He is the only one who could appreciate my singing, and i hope he has a sense of humor.
i dont know how to respond to you, other than, at times, i have these same thoughts....especially after running into the holier than thou crowd, ya know, the ones who tell you its their way or the highway....(and it aint the highway to heaven....its the other....and there seem to be many of them here. i like to refer to them as the " hooray for me, too bad for you crowd...."
when you get a good answer to your question....let me know.
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Sadalmelik
Well-Known Member
i guess this is the only place i can post anymore on annihilation, they surely dont like it discussed in other areas, as another thread on hell just got closed for bringing it up...people dont like to hear the truth, it is quite confusing to me, why anyone would want to stifle what scripture actually says, and not what man says on the subject...confused.
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Think about it brother... If ANY child of yours made a HUGE or GRAVE error in life (murder, rape, etc), would you, as his/her "LOVING" parent, lead an endeavor to have him BURNED to death? Vehemently seeking this most HORRIBLE end to him/her?
I truly believe that ANYONE who is truly HONEST with him/herself, ...the TRUTH is that any LOVING parent would SEEK FORGIVENESS and REHABILITATIONAL CORRECTION concerning the penalty associated with such an offense... (not sidestepping penalty, but certainly seeking that his/her child's LIFE, ...be spared)...
When is KILLING EVER a LOVING justification?
The thought of "ANNHILATION", just proposes YHVH GOD to be a TRANGRESSOR of His own LAW -- Exodus 20:13 -- How might He be EXAMPLING the HOLY standards that He INSTRUCTS us to keep, by TRANSGRESSING them Himself?
"ANNHILATION" was indeed the act of HITLER against the JEWS, ...correct? Do you percieve this act of HITLER to be in any way, a RIGHTEOUS act?
Everyone that I know, considers the acts of HITLER as HEINOUS and DISPICABLE!
However please tell me IN WHAT WAY, the teaching of ANNHILATION by men, OF MEN ...by GOD... is any different than HITLER'S act? ..other than GOD is GOD, and no one can object to what He does? Men are STILL ...BURNED to death, VERY painfully in either case!
And the Scripture -- 1 Cor 14:54 -- which notes DEATH as no more existent, is therefore a LIE, for there are (supposedly) those who REMAIN, IN IT! As long as ANY MAN or ANY part of Creation remains IN DEATH... then DEATH remains EXISTENT!
Any (proposed) "DIVINE" coverup of "DEATH" (such as not allowing a rememberance of it), is just DIVINELY DISHONEST, no matter how you slice it. And I for one, ...do not BUY IT!
In what way does ANNHILATION of men (by GOD), display GOD's GREAT LOVE for those men/women, Jrog?
(Remember "GOD so <PERMANENTLY and UNCHANGINGLY> ...LOVED the WORLD"... and EVERY man that ever lived, is a part of that "WORLD" He so LOVED ...which "WORLD" means creation -- KOSMOS) CHRIST tasted death for EVERY MAN -- Heb 2:9 -- and I ask you, WHY?
For any part of that "tasting of death" that did not get rid of that "part" of DEATH COMPLETELY, ...was therefore "tasted" in VAIN.
Such an assertion as "ANNHILATION" of men by GOD, as being the "TRUTH", also teaches that what HITLER did (burning/ANNHILATING the JEWS), was the "TRUTH" being enacted, as well?
As I see it, if this is the "TRUTH", then the poor JEWS (which were GOD's CHOSEN people) get it TWICE!
KILLING is KILLING, ...period.
The TRUTH is that ANNHILATION by GOD, makes NO SENSE whatsoever -- Isaiah 1:18
The idea itself is not at all, aligned with REASON! Especially when considering it to ORIGINATE from the standpoint of LOVE, ...which GOD claims that HE ...IS -- 1 John 4:8
This misunderstanding (as I see it), is due to VEILED observation of SYMBOLIC texts both in the book of REVELATION ("Lake of fire"), as well as in the words of CHRIST concerning "GEHENNA"...
When CHRIST noted in -- Mark 9:42-49 -- to MAIM the body, do you really think He was INSTRUCTING men to do these things to themselves, the TEMPLE of the HOLY SPIRIT?
Of course not! (how many MAIMED -- 1 eyed, 1 handed, 1 footed, "Christians" do YOU know of, Jrog?)...
But even though MEN look upon these verses (the MAIMING of the BODY such as "plucking out of eyes", and "cutting off of hands, feet") in -- Mark 9 and Matt 5 -- as SYMBOLIC, ...when it comes to the "FIRE", ...all of a sudden the teaching becomes LITERAL? Nah, ...all this is, is DECEPTION of the HUMAN HEART in its most VILE state!
-- Jer 17:9GEHENNA (in JEWISH culture and religion) was a place of SHAME. The JEWISH culture, placed a very high ESTEEM upon RESPECTFUL and HONORABLE burial (still do!)l... And anyone whose DEAD body was disposed of in "GEHENNA", put his/her own name as well as his/her FAMILY name to SHAME.
In our "buying of the GOLD of CHRIST" which was TRIED IN "FIRE" (this life and realm), we avoid (covered in its "white raiment/covering) the (deep and sorrowful) NAKEDNESS of SHAME (such as was experienced by ADAM & EVE), ...not ANNHILATION --- Rev 3:18
"EYES" are "dried (tears wiped away)" in the conclusion of this realm -- Rev 21:4 -- This "wiping away of tears" certainly is NOT referencing those who rise (are resurrected) to and IN the JOY of God's presence...
But it certainly DOES refer to TEARFUL and REPENTENT hearts, which would have "eyes in need of this "WIPING AWAY" of their TEARS (which was was YOUR, and everyone else's experience when CHRIST was realized by our REPENTENT hearts, NO? --->
----> Phil 2:10-11), ...think about it!When "GEHENNA" was mentioned by JESUS, He never alluded to it as an "ANNHILATION"...
NO LIVING entity was EVER thrown into GEHENNA.
If you might brother, please note the texts on which you base your belief in "Annhilation", and I will address them if you like (at least giving you "food for thought").
I can tell you one thing brother (and certainly no offense is intended), ..."ANNHILATION" is NOT the "TRUTH"...
(FYI, I was a member of the SDA church for 5 years, which are VERY STRONG proponents of "Annhilation", so I am quite familiar with this "belief")
PEACE...
...willieH
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Ishraqiyun
Fanning the Divine Spark
Do you think anyone who has ever asked God for forgiveness will , before they die at least, become Christian or do you mean lead them to Jesus in some other manner (say after death or whatnot) ? It seems to be a very common prayer yet not everyone who makes it becomes Christian after saying it. I'm sure many life long agnostics, Muslims, or Jews have prayed something along those lines at some point. Heck even people who identify as atheist might say something like that in a moment of doubt (of their doubt). It doesn't appear that they all become Christians after having done so.
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Sadalmelik
Well-Known Member
Think about it brother... If ANY child of yours made a HUGE or GRAVE error in life (murder, rape, etc), would you, as his/her "LOVING" parent, lead an endeavor to have him BURNED to death? Vehemently seeking this most HORRIBLE end to him/her?
I truly believe that ANYONE who is truly HONEST with him/herself, ...the TRUTH is that any LOVING parent would SEEK FORGIVENESS and REHABILITATIONAL CORRECTION concerning the penalty associated with such an offense... (not sidestepping penalty, but certainly seeking that his/her child's LIFE, ...be spared)...
When is KILLING EVER a LOVING justification?
The thought of "ANNHILATION", just proposes YHVH GOD to be a TRANGRESSOR of His own LAW -- Exodus 20:13 -- How might He be EXAMPLING the HOLY standards that He INSTRUCTS us to keep, by TRANSGRESSING them Himself?
"ANNHILATION" was indeed the act of HITLER against the JEWS, ...correct? Do you percieve this act of HITLER to be in any way, a RIGHTEOUS act?
Everyone that I know, considers the acts of HITLER as HEINOUS and DISPICABLE!
However please tell me IN WHAT WAY, the teaching of ANNHILATION by men, OF MEN ...by GOD... is any different than HITLER'S act? ..other than GOD is GOD, and no one can object to what He does? Men are STILL ...BURNED to death, VERY painfully in either case!
And the Scripture -- 1 Cor 14:54 -- which notes DEATH as no more existent, is therefore a LIE, for there are (supposedly) those who REMAIN, IN IT! As long as ANY MAN or ANY part of Creation remains IN DEATH... then DEATH remains EXISTENT!
Any (proposed) "DIVINE" coverup of "DEATH" (such as not allowing a rememberance of it), is just DIVINELY DISHONEST, no matter how you slice it. And I for one, ...do not BUY IT!
In what way does ANNHILATION of men (by GOD), display GOD's GREAT LOVE for those men/women, Jrog?
CHRIST tasted death for EVERY MAN -- Heb 2:9 -- and I ask you, WHY?
For any part of that "tasting of death" that did not get rid of that "part" of DEATH COMPLETELY, ...was therefore "tasted" in VAIN.
Such an assertion as "ANNHILATION" of men by GOD, as being the "TRUTH", also teaches that what HITLER did (burning/ANNHILATING the JEWS), was the "TRUTH" being enacted, as well?
As I see it, if this is the "TRUTH", then the poor JEWS (which were GOD's CHOSEN people) get it TWICE!
KILLING is KILLING, ...period.
The TRUTH is that ANNHILATION by GOD, makes NO SENSE whatsoever -- Isaiah 1:18
The idea itself is not at all, aligned with REASON! Especially when considering it to ORIGINATE from the standpoint of LOVE, ...which GOD claims that HE ...IS -- 1 John 4:8
This misunderstanding (as I see it), is due to VEILED observation of SYMBOLIC texts both in the book of REVELATION ("Lake of fire"), as well as in the words of CHRIST concerning "GEHENNA"...
When CHRIST noted in -- Mark 9:42-49 -- to MAIM the body, do you really think He was INSTRUCTING men to do these things to themselves, the TEMPLE of the HOLY SPIRIT?
Of course not! (how many MAIMED -- 1 eyed, 1 handed, 1 footed, "Christians" do YOU know of, Jrog?)...
But even though MEN look upon these verses (the MAIMING of the BODY such as "plucking out of eyes", and "cutting off of hands, feet") in -- Mark 9 and Matt 5 -- as SYMBOLIC, ...when it comes to the "FIRE", ...all of a sudden the teaching becomes LITERAL? Nah, ...all this is, is DECEPTION of the HUMAN HEART in its most VILE state!
GEHENNA (in JEWISH culture and religion) was a place of SHAME. The JEWISH culture, placed a very high ESTEEM upon RESPECTFUL and HONORABLE burial (still do!)l... And anyone whose DEAD body was disposed of in "GEHENNA", put his/her own name as well as his/her FAMILY name to SHAME.
In our "buying of the GOLD of CHRIST" which was TRIED IN "FIRE" (this life and realm), we avoid (covered in its "white raiment/covering) the (deep and sorrowful) NAKEDNESS of SHAME (such as was experienced by ADAM & EVE), ...not ANNHILATION --- Rev 3:18
"EYES" are "dried (tears wiped away)" in the conclusion of this realm -- Rev 21:4 -- This "wiping away of tears" certainly is NOT referencing those who rise (are resurrected) to and IN the JOY of God's presence...
But it certainly DOES refer to TEARFUL and REPENTENT hearts, which would have "eyes in need of this "WIPING AWAY" of their TEARS (which was was YOUR, and everyone else's experience when CHRIST was realized by our REPENTENT hearts, NO? --->
When "GEHENNA" was mentioned by JESUS, He never alluded to it as an "ANNHILATION"...
NO LIVING entity was EVER thrown into GEHENNA.
If you might brother, please note the texts on which you base your belief in "Annhilation", and I will address them if you like (at least giving you "food for thought").
I can tell you one thing brother (and certainly no offense is intended), ..."ANNHILATION" is NOT the "TRUTH"...
(FYI, I was a member of the SDA church for 5 years, which are VERY STRONG proponents of "Annhilation", so I am quite familiar with this "belief")
PEACE...
...willieH
hey willie, just read your post, listen, i as i explained to your before, consider myself a fledgling christian, well reread my post on your home site,,,i dont need to repeat it....i am taking my time this time around, i vowed to myself and to the Holyspirit, that i would let Him guide me to the truth....and rest assured He is working on me...though at times im kicking and screaming....
i have said many of the exact same things you write above in my own posts....i totally understand where your coming from....with many of your points your preaching to the choir...i came from a strict catholic upbringing brother....so for me to be here today, having rejected much of the catholic doctrine, i now attend a non denominational church, and subscribe to no 'religion", i will not let anyone convince me of anything...to do so i would be breaking my commitment to myself and God.
i have rejected the doctrine of eternal hell, that was a big step itself to do, and i am still researching and trying to figure everything out on this subject....i have a long way to go....i know....for i believe anyone who thinks they have it all figured out is fooling themselves...i know as a christian i will never stop learning...i believe that of all christians.
i will certainly call on you willie, when im confused or need clarification on something....i can see your very astute when it comes to scripture, and i value your insight as to your beliefs....
God bless willieH
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dollarsbill
Well-Known Member
Those who seek God with all their hearts will find His salvation.
Jeremiah 29:13
13 You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
Matthew 13:45-46
45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, 46 who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it.
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