Who goes to hell?

[squint]

You might need to reread those scriptures squint, because, if you read them in context, they say no such thing. They have nothing to do with the lake of fire OR hell. They have everything to do with being used of God for His work here and now. God isn't going to use a dirty vessel to testify to His power 'to clean up lives'.

So, you are a 'no heller' then?

Romans 9:
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Which is in fact what eventually will happen to such vessels, period. They are presently 'tolerated.'

1TH 4:4 that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God;

Is this verse talking about you getting saved so don't burn in hell, or is it talking about cleaning up your life, and not acting like an unsaved Gentiles...here and now.

Paul was abundantly clear that we have a vessel of dishonor to deal with.

2 Tim. 2:
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Does this say there's no use in a large house for these common utensils??? NO! They just aren't used for the banquet. Common vessels are for 'common' use. And how do YOU become a 'vessel of honor' according to this passage? Does it say get saved or burn in hell???? NO! It says you are to cleanse yourself, after you've been saved so God will use you here and now as His honorable vessel.

I have no issues with devils going to the Lake of Fire forever and EVER if that is where we need to get to to finish this. So, cut to the chase on that exact ground and we'll see where yer head is at from there.

No sense beating around the bush on that matter.

enjoy!

s

 

[squint]

You would have to count Paul among that lot. However "salvation" is a word that carries a multitude of meanings. It can mean "Soul Healing", as in a sickness of the soul that prevents one from giving love. It can mean to be "Free", as the early Paulines considered themselves to be freed from Judaism. It can also mean to be allowed to once again perceive the kingdom of heaven. These are all legitimate early christian definitions.

If we step back pre-christian, "salvation" was continuation of a nation. If we jump forward to the sixteenth century, "salvation" meant going to heaven when the body dies. Drop back again tho the thirteenth century, and it was something that could be bought or sold.

I don't look at "salvation" as an event, but rather as a process. "Running the good race" as Paul wrote. In "Secret James", Jesus said "Be zealous to be saved without being urged. Rather, be ready on your own and, if possible, go before me. For thus the Father will love you. ", giving further weight to the words of Paul.

In my sermons, I would often use an example of two ex- thieves, both trying to lead a Christian life.

The first thief will not steal, because he feels that it is against the law and against the written commandments. He has cleaned the outside of the cup.

The second thief will not steal, because the idea no longer enters his heart. He has cleaned the inside of the cup.

To reach true "salvation", one has to clean the inside of the cup.

Which if either will enter "Heaven"? Not for me to judge, nor you, nor any other mortal.

Sounds like a lot of ambiguous hogwash to me. Sorry.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

These conversations can boil down fairly fast to some simple facts.

Scriptures present that we 'all' deal with Satan, the devil, the tempter INternally, that is 'in our hearts.'

We can paint that pig up by 'religion' and ignore what goes on within our hearts OR we can look to the fact that evil is satanic in origin, has infiltrated our hearts, and cut right there and divide ourselves from it.

Pretty simple.

Factor that in and we may have a conversation. Otherwise such things are a dodge ball game in never getting to the 'heart' of the scriptural issue.

s

 

[Hillsage]

So, you are a 'no heller' then?

Just a bible believer s, just a bible believer. But if you want to inject your idea of 'eternal hell' into any verse in Romans, then you might have to start convincing me by finding the word hell anywhere in the entire book of Romans first. That would really impress me to believe you know the facts concerning Romans, as well as you know your 'presumption'.

Romans 9:
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And as for the word "destruction" in the verse you just quoted....it happens to be in scripture 20 times and never once is it translated as Hell. As a matter of fact there isn't one verse that it can't be argued as not even pertaining to destruction in the hereafter.

Which is in fact what eventually will happen to such vessels, period. They are presently 'tolerated.'

You may believe they were created to just be tolerated, but my God didn't create anything to just be 'tolerated'...scripture please if you think you're right and I'm wrong.

Paul was abundantly clear that we have a vessel of dishonor to deal with.

Well, we are certainly in agreement on that point.

I have no issues with devils going to the Lake of Fire forever and EVER if that is where we need to get to to finish this. So, cut to the chase on that exact ground and we'll see where yer head is at from there.

My head is with the scholars, and bibles that don't make the mistake of using the word "eternal" or "forever" when dealing with God's punishment.

No sense beating around the bush on that matter.

Nope, not as long as we can speak freely concerning our views and beating your evidence in favor of it.

 

[WillieH]

Ok. I wasn't aware that anyone here had been trying to defend or make Satan righteous. Perhaps it would help if you explain the difference between your beliefs and Universalism in more depth.

I think it is up to YOU to prove that you even KNOW what "universalism" is, first ...dollarsbill!


Most which ORTHODOX believers call "Universalists", were ORTHODOX believers which FOUND THE TRUTH, and the reason they FOUND the TRUTH, was because, even though they were once "ORTHODOX" in belief, they did more than just SWALLOW this RELIGION... they SEARCHED the SCRIPTURES to see if the things of ORTHODOXY were even IN the Scriptures...


Most ORTHODOX teachings are not even IN the WORD of God... here are a few by their "UNBIBLICAL NAMES":


1. The TRINITY...
2. The RAPTURE...
3. The MILLENIUM...
4. EASTER...
5. SPIRITUAL ISRAEL...

6. BAPTISM performed using the words "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit"...

7. SUNDAY worship...
8. FREE WILL...
9. HELL...
10. ACCEPTING CHRIST...
11. SOULS led to CHRIST...
12. SINNER's PRAYER...

13. GOING to HEAVEN...
14. GOING to HELL...
15. FALLEN ANGELS...



So, tell us dollarsbill, ...what EXACTLY do "Universalism" believers (a label YOU use to identify them) ...believe?


If you can actually show what this "belief" actually IS... then you should also be able to effectively prove it false with SCRIPTURE...


If you cannot... then you speak a word (and associated "belief") which you do not comprehend.



Since you KNOW this "belief", ...It will be interesting to see you SHOW this "belief" with the Scriptures, as the BELIEF that "Universalism" believers actually hold.

If you cannot do this, then, as with MOST ORTHODOX believers, you refer to something which you DO NOT KNOW anything about.


Btw... I can easily display the beliefs of the ORTHODOX believers, having been in the "system" for over 25 years (20 yrs with the Salvation Army, and 5 yrs with the SDA church)...


And even though the DOCTRINES ORTHODOXY teaches are UNNAMED in the Scriptures... I can note where they are in Scripture... and why they are FALSE...


As I asked you to do this FIRST, your task is set before you... and if indeed you are ABLE to show us where, and why "Universalism" believers "believe" what they do...


I promise to reciprocate with the beliefs of ORTHODOXY... and show WHY they are false. ...Heckuvadeal, eh?


PEACE...

...willieH

 

[Timothew]

And even though the DOCTRINES ORTHODOXY teaches are UNNAMED in the Scriptures... I can note where they are in Scripture... and why they are FALSE...


As I asked you to do this FIRST, your task is set before you... and if indeed you are ABLE to show us where, and why "Universalism" believers "believe" what they do...


I promise to reciprocate with the beliefs of ORTHODOXY... and show WHY they are false. ...Heckuvadeal, eh?


PEACE...

...willieH

Willie, I seems like you are suggesting that we all learn all we can about both doctrines and then try to decide which doctrine has the most support from scripture.

Or all three doctrines; Orthodoxy/ET, Universalism, Conditionalism/Annihilationism.

I think most people don't even know why they believe their own doctrine.

 

[squint]

Just a bible believer s, just a bible believer. But if you want to inject your idea of 'eternal hell' into any verse in Romans, then you might have to start convincing me by finding the word hell anywhere in the entire book of Romans first. That would really impress me to believe you know the facts concerning Romans, as well as you know your 'presumption'.

This question as prior noted sooner or later gets around to viewing the matters of 'imperfection' or in the realm of theology, theodicy. A study of evils existence with a Perfect God.

In the matter of hell, the ultimate goal of God in Christ is the eradication of all sin, evil and death. Hell or the lake of fire is the 'eternal death' or 'torture' (take your pick) of those powers of sin, evil and death.

And as for the word "destruction" in the verse you just quoted....it happens to be in scripture 20 times and never once is it translated as Hell. As a matter of fact there isn't one verse that it can't be argued as not even pertaining to destruction in the hereafter.

Trying to meet you here on ground that is simple. I doubt very much in the final analysis that we will be that far apart on this subject. So please don't automatically assume that I mean this matter to be applied to 'any person' as I don't.

You may believe they were created to just be tolerated, but my God didn't create anything to just be 'tolerated'...scripture please if you think you're right and I'm wrong.

These powers are not viewable by flesh eyes, yet scriptures tell us they exist in the form of the devil and his messengers. These 'entities' are currently 'overlapped' with man, are temporal in nature and are designed by God to be discarded. Call it a 'program device' by God or call it spiritual fertilizer if that analogy suits you. Those things are going to come to an end by the promise of the scriptures.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Now, you will find variations on this matter, and usually when there are it is because the viewer sees only people as being these, and that is not the case.

My head [/b][/i]is with the scholars, and bibles that don't make the mistake of using the word "eternal" or "forever" when dealing with God's punishment.

It is a biblical promise that certain things are going to come to an end and be destroyed. Simple as that. I don't write these things for the intention of the detriment of any person.

s

 

[he-man]

My head is with the scholars, and bibles that don't make the mistake of using the word "eternal" or "forever" when dealing with God's punishment.

Good post except for the last part, God does not punish, he chastizes or repays and you reap what you sow.
2Th 1:9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[Gregory Thompson]

An age of destruction doesn't sound so salespitch friendly does it?

 

[he-man]

An age of destruction doesn't sound so salespitch friendly does it?

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath a penalty. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

 

[WillieH]

Willie, I seems like you are suggesting that we all learn all we can about both doctrines and then try to decide which doctrine has the most support from scripture.

Or all three doctrines; Orthodoxy/ET, Universalism, Conditionalism/Annihilationism.

I think most people don't even know why they believe their own doctrine.

Well Tim, I have been amidst all THREE of these positions.


1. Salvation Army -- 20 yrs -- ET belief -- FAILURE to Save the World
2. 7th Day Adventist -- 5 yrs -- Annhilation -- FAILURE to Save the World
3. Salvation of ALL -- 11 yrs -- the COMPLETE SUCCESS of the mission of CHRIST


I really don't suggest that anyone LEARN these positions... but if they COMMENT on them, without KNOWING what the BELIEF actually IS... then they speak from the position of foolishness, ...which is making comment on something he/she KNOWS nothing about.


I do believe that BOTH the beliefs of ET and ANNHILATION:


1. Paint a picture of FAILURE concerning the mission -- Luke 19:10

2. Pose the MAJORITY of the RANSOM as IN VAIN -- Isaiah 55:11

3. Refutes JESUS, saying that Eye for Eye "VENGENCE" was no longer in effect -- Matt 5:38 -- for SIN is still held against men.

4. Show that the "mission" was foreknown in FUTILITY but implemented regardless -- John 1:9 -- John 1:29 --

5. Display GOD as a HYPOCRITE ...which demands that men forgive, but shall not do so Himself -- Matt 5:44-48

6. Displays that SIN was NOT conquered (as Scripture claims) in VICTORY, and that DEATH was not overcome, for most remain in both -- 1 Cor 15:54


NONE of which make ANY SENSE (are "REASONABLE") -- Isaiah 1:18 -- whatsoever...


PEACE...

...willieH

 

[Sadalmelik]

This question as prior noted sooner or later gets around to viewing the matters of 'imperfection' or in the realm of theology, theodicy. A study of evils existence with a Perfect God.

In the matter of hell, the ultimate goal of God in Christ is the eradication of all sin, evil and death. Hell or the lake of fire is the 'eternal death' or 'torture' (take your pick) of those powers of sin, evil and death.


Trying to meet you here on ground that is simple. I doubt very much in the final analysis that we will be that far apart on this subject. So please don't automatically assume that I mean this matter to be applied to 'any person' as I don't.


These powers are not viewable by flesh eyes, yet scriptures tell us they exist in the form of the devil and his messengers. These 'entities' are currently 'overlapped' with man, are temporal in nature and are designed by God to be discarded. Call it a 'program device' by God or call it spiritual fertilizer if that analogy suits you. Those things are going to come to an end by the promise of the scriptures.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Now, you will find variations on this matter, and usually when there are it is because the viewer sees only people as being these, and that is not the case.


It is a biblical promise that certain things are going to come to an end and be destroyed. Simple as that. I don't write these things for the intention of the detriment of any person.

s

so, im confused squint as to what your position is, perhaps i havent been following as closely as i should of......i thought you had a more orthodox view of hell, so im confused then how you believe also that these things, as you put it in your last paragraph, are going to come to an end and be destroyed?

how can you have a neverending hell, which is saying that death, suffering, evil, etc will always exist, that is if hell is eternal...it may not be in heaven, or amongst the saved, but its still there.....somewhere, and if its somewhere, then God would know it was there, which to me, would only mean, that it still exists, thus the two views you hold are not consistent, and are completely contradicting.

i believe God when He says that the evil things will no longer exist, so therefore, that would make the idea of an eternal hell IMPOSSIBLE, for that would completely invalidate Gods ultimate plan, of doing away with evil, and if a belief is not consistent with ALL of scripture, then that particular belief cannot be valid....period.....one cannot have it both ways.

 

[Timothew]

Well Tim, I have been amidst all THREE of these positions.

I really don't suggest that anyone LEARN these positions... but if they COMMENT on them, without KNOWING what the BELIEF actually IS... then they speak from the position of foolishness, ...which is making comment on something he/she KNOWS nothing about.

...willieH

I agree that people should learn about all three doctrines before they comment on them.

 

[squint]

so, im confused squint as to what your position is, perhaps i havent been following as closely as i should of......i thought you had a more orthodox view of hell, so im confused then how you believe also that these things, as you put it in your last paragraph, are going to come to an end and be destroyed?

There is no doubt from scriptures that the devil and his messengers are going to the lake of fire eternally as in forever and EVER. There is no salvation of and for DEVILS. Some posters here though present that to be a fact and IT'S NOT. That too is a lie from some segments of universalism.

how can you have a neverending hell, which is saying that death, suffering, evil, etc will always exist, that is if hell is eternal..

The lake of fire is the 'death' of those matters. It is called 'the second death' because those matters are the 'first death.'

.it may not be in heaven, or amongst the saved, but its still there.....somewhere, and if its somewhere, then God would know it was there, which to me, would only mean, that it still exists, thus the two views you hold are not consistent, and are completely contradicting.

Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

i believe God when He says that the evil things will no longer exist, so therefore, that would make the idea of an eternal hell IMPOSSIBLE, for that would completely invalidate Gods ultimate plan, of doing away with evil, and if a belief is not consistent with ALL of scripture, then that particular belief cannot be valid....period.....one cannot have it both ways.

Never said otherwise.

s

 

[dollarsbill]

I think it is up to YOU to prove that you even KNOW what "universalism" is, first ...dollarsbill!

Are you saying there is only ONE version of Universalism? My interest in Universalism would be concerning whether it includes ALL humans.

 

[Hillsage]

In the matter of hell, the ultimate goal of God in Christ is the eradication of all sin, evil and death. Hell or the lake of fire is the 'eternal death' or 'torture' (take your pick) of those powers of sin, evil and death.

Your theology falls short for me s. Let me tell you why. Hell is not "the lake of fire"!

REV 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
You know what else is in the lake of fire? BRIMSTONE. You know what brimstone is? It's sulfur. Now let me tell you a history lesson. Sulfur is a PURGATIVE. It was historically used for purging wounds and preserving foods. Remember the SULFA drugs of the war movies? Look at your dried apricots and guess what SULFUR. BRIMSTONE/SULFUR has no history anywhere EVER of being use for TORTURE...I take that back ORTHODOXY uses it as such.

These powers are not viewable by flesh eyes, yet scriptures tell us they exist in the form of the devil and his messengers. These 'entities' are currently 'overlapped' with man, are temporal in nature and are designed by God to be discarded.

You think God created things to be 'discarded'??? I asked you last time to prove with scripture God "tolerated" things. You didn't provide one. Now I ask for scripture proving they're just "disarded". I'm not saying you're wrong, but back it with scripture please. I'll tell you why I'm asking. Because I see scripture saying that even these 'entities' are to be reconciled also...in due time, when their temporal purpose has been fulfilled.
COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Tell me, 'what' in the 'heavenly realm' needed to be reconciled when God was reconciling ALL THINGS? Nothing was there but angels and God...oh yeah and 1/3 of those angels were the devil and his angels.

Trying to meet you here on ground that is simple. I doubt very much in the final analysis that we will be that far apart on this subject. So please don't automatically assume that I mean this matter to be applied to 'any person' as I don't.

This comment is curious to me. What do you mean by saying you're not applying this to "any person"? Is it just the "entities" who are in 'hell' or 'lake of fire' (which?) in your opinion? What 'simple ground' are we meeting on?

 

[squint]

Your theology falls short for me s. Let me tell you why. Hell is not "the lake of fire"!

I only put hell there for those who understand them to be the same, though they are not. Hell does go into the lake of fire.

You think God created things to be 'discarded'???

Yes, sin evil and death were never meant to be 'eternal.'

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

There are also specific exceptions to the above, openly stated, the power of death being one. There will be no 'reconciliation' of that power. It is a temporal deployment that will be discarded along with pain and tears and sorrow, etc etc.

Tell me, 'what' in the 'heavenly realm' needed to be reconciled when God was reconciling ALL THINGS? Nothing was there but angels and God...oh yeah and 1/3 of those angels were the devil and his angels.

If you want to show specifically where Salvation was granted to devils in the scriptures you are welcome to try to find what doesn't exist.

s

 

[Hillsage]

If you want to show specifically where Salvation was granted to devils in the scriptures you are welcome to try to find what doesn't exist.

We were doing real good until that last comment s. But you then failed to address the very scripture I quoted, to prove God reconciles ALL he has ever created. You tell me what needed reconciling "in heaven" I've told you my take, what's yours?

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

I read the testimony of a Presbreterian/? pastor who said God hit him hard with this very scripture, launching him into a study and eventual acceptance, not only of God's salvation for people, but for all He created "for His good pleasure". And there is NOTHING good about eternal purposeless torture. A god like that would be worse than Hitler...for all eternity.

ROM 8:21 because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God.

REV 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

If it is His "pleasure" to torture for eternity, then that is a sick pleasure...we/Webster's define that kind of pleasure 'SADISTIC'...and well we should.

 

[squint]

We were doing real good until that last comment s. But you then failed to address the very scripture I quoted, to prove God reconciles ALL he has ever created. You tell me what needed reconciling "in heaven" I've told you my take, what's yours?

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As stated prior, there is no avoidance of this by specific statement of fact:

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

There is no statement that Christ died for devils.

I read the testimony of a Presbreterian/? pastor who said God hit him hard with this very scripture, launching him into a study and eventual acceptance, not only of God's salvation for people, but for all He created "for His good pleasure". And there is NOTHING good about eternal purposeless torture. A god like that would be worse than Hitler...for all eternity.

Some fall into Satanic salvation. Were it specified to them, I would accept it.

The blanket statement is proven to NOT be such a blanket by the elimination of the power of death as one example. The power of death is not going to have a conversion, but an ending. And the same fate is specified to the devil as the power of death. There is no way to remedy this matter.

If it is His "pleasure" to torture for eternity, then that is a sick pleasure...we/Webster's define that kind of pleasure 'SADISTIC'...and well we should.

And I might see the Lake of Fire as an anti-heaven for anti-Christ spirits.

s

 

[Sadalmelik]

We were doing real good until that last comment s. But you then failed to address the very scripture I quoted, to prove God reconciles ALL he has ever created. You tell me what needed reconciling "in heaven" I've told you my take, what's yours?

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

I read the testimony of a Presbreterian/? pastor who said God hit him hard with this very scripture, launching him into a study and eventual acceptance, not only of God's salvation for people, but for all He created "for His good pleasure". And there is NOTHING good about eternal purposeless torture. A god like that would be worse than Hitler...for all eternity.

ROM 8:21 because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God.

REV 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

If it is His "pleasure" to torture for eternity, then that is a sick pleasure...we/Webster's define that kind of pleasure 'SADISTIC'...and well we should.

like ive stated numerous times,,,,,,when we (humans) do something like that, (ie..hitler/3rd reich), it is cosidered barbaric, cruel, evil, and sadistic....yet when God does it, or allows it, it is considered loving, necessary and just......this makes absolutely no sense to a normal thinking brain..... i have not heard anyone refute this as there is no refuting it.....the only response you usually get are one of two things....either its some sort of divine mystery, or that it is justice from God....well.....uhhh...no it is not. so your refute fails. it is not loving and it is not justice. and dont tell me to take it up with God, because i already have, and the Holyspirit has told me its a lie......as i have discovered, the bible in its original texts, does NOT teach this. man does.

 

[WillieH]

Are you saying there is only ONE version of Universalism? My interest in Universalism would be concerning whether it includes ALL humans.

You tell me, dollarsbill! ...is there?

And really, are you "interested"? Or just ignorant of the subject, even though you have made mention it as if you "KNOW" it...

Most ORTHODOXY, shun this topic because their "church or pastor", has named it "HERESY" and/or "DANGEROUS"... and listening to their "church or pastor", ...have never truly studied for THEMSELVES, to find out whether or not the recommendation was actually "heretical"!

Have you studied it, dollarsbill?

If you have, then you should be able to (in a nutshell), using the Scriptures easily show the:

REASON -- Isaiah 1:18 -- and,
LOVE -- 1 John 4:14 -- 1 Cor 13:8 -- and,
PEACE -- Rom 15:33 -- Rom 10:15

as the BASIS for why and how, those who believe it, claim it is TRUE!


PEACE...

...willieH