Who Doesn't Go To Hell?

[Petros2015]

That's a good analogy. Jesus said...

"where their worm does not die"
might in that analogy become
"where their cancer is not cured"

Not a punishment, but a necessary outcome of choosing to skip Chemo

 

[BNR32FAN]

You are right, although I would not say that someone who believes in purgatory will go to hell for that. Some people believe in purgatory because their church teaches it (without checking the Bible for it themselves) and others believe in purgatory because they cannot deal with the fact that people will be in hell for all eternity.
While this thread is about "people going to hell because they don't believe that Jesus' sacrifice is enough" I think not all Christians believing in purgatory are part of that group

I disagree the whole point of purgatory is the teaching that Christ’s sacrifice didn’t pay for all our sins. That’s exactly what it says in the Catholic Catechism.


1031. "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"


1472. "To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the 'eternal punishment' of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the 'temporal punishment' of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. [Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.]"

This doctrine completely ignores Paul’s teaching in Colossians 1:22-23. If we have received Christ’s atonement we are holy and blameless beyond reproach. Notice the dates of these councils that formulated the doctrine of purgatory 1439AD, 1547AD, and 1563AD. This took place when the abuse of indulgences were at an all time high and right in the middle of the inquisitions I might add which was what led to the reformation movement. The Roman Church officially apologized for the actions of these men during the inquisitions which further raises question of their guidance during this time. Indulgences are still to this day offered in exchange for money to allow people who have died to be released from purgatory so that they may enter heaven. I know that in the Philippines the going rate is 5,000 pesos. The doctrine of purgatory is not as innocent as some make it out to be which is why it is rejected by every church except for Rome.

 

[Petros2015]

I disagree the whole point of purgatory is the teaching that Christ’s sacrifice didn’t pay for all our sins.

Haha. Oh but it did! It paid for the Chemo.
That doesn't mean that Chemo will be pleasant though

I'll tell you a funny joke.

A man has cancer in a 3rd world country - he's dying, but he doesn't know it. In fact ALL of the people of this 3rd world country have this cancer.

There's a brilliant doctor in another country, he has a cure for this cancer but
a) the man can't pay for it.
and b) the man doesn't even recognize that he has it. It's Stage 1. He's not going to know until it's too late.

The doctor sends his son to the third world country, letting them know that his son will personally pay for the treatment if they follow his advice, believe what his son is saying and begin the process in their country until they can come to his.

Some of them listen and believe the son
Some of them listen and never follow his son's advice
Some them say they listen to and believe in the son and give completely different and absolutely contrary advice (one of the symptoms of this particular form of cancer apparently is progressive insanity, denial and resentment)
Some of them (particularly the 3rd world medical doctors) are so outraged at the suggestion that they are diseased and worried about losing their jobs and credibility that they form a mob and they kill his son.

Nevertheless, the doctor makes a memorial to his son in the 3rd world country
In the shape of a cross
And the offer still stands to this day
For anyone that believes in this Cross
And appeals to it
The treatment is paid for
Some of the 3rd world countrymen who knew the son
Preserve his teachings and spirit and begin to create hospitals where the process can begin
For that those that believe what he said

Ok that's not so funny.
But, you get the drift.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Haha. Oh but it did! It paid for the Chemo.
That doesn't mean that Chemo will be pleasant though

I'll tell you a funny joke.

A man has cancer in a 3rd world country - he's dying, but he doesn't know it. In fact ALL of the people of this 3rd world country have this cancer.

There's a brilliant doctor in another country, he has a cure for this cancer but
a) the man can't pay for it.
and b) the man doesn't even recognize that he has it. It's Stage 1. He's not going to know until it's too late.

The doctor sends his son to the third world country, letting them know that his son will personally pay for the treatment if they follow his advice, believe what his son is saying and begin the process in their country until they can come to his.

Some of them listen and believe the son
Some of them listen and never follow his son's advice
Some them say they listen to and believe in the son and give completely different and absolutely contrary advice (one of the symptoms of this particular form of cancer apparently is progressive insanity)
Some of them (particularly the 3rd world medical doctors) are so outraged at the suggestion that they are diseased and worried about losing their jobs and credibility that they form a mob and they kill his son.

Nevertheless, the doctor makes a memorial to his son in the 3rd world country
In the shape of a cross
And the offer still stands to this day
Some of the 3rd world countrymen who knew the son
Preserve his teachings and spirit and begin to create hospitals where the process can begin
For that those that believe him

Ok that's not so funny.
But, you get the drift.

In this scenario your implying that Jesus didn’t actually heal anything. Your implying that we heal ourselves, Christ only told us how. So where does Christ’s sacrifice take place in this scenario you’ve created? This scenario only contains Christ’s ministry not His sacrifice

 

[Petros2015]

In this scenario your implying that Jesus didn’t actually heal anything. Your implying that we heal ourselves, Christ only told us how.

Christ said "Follow me" I think, among other things. "I am the Way, the Truth, the Life"
I don't think a man who is following Christ is "healing himself"
But I do think he will be healed.
Without Christ, he has nothing to follow that will do that.

So where does Christ’s sacrifice take place in this scenario you’ve created? This scenario only contains Christ ministry not his sacrifice

Probably around the point that the mob kills him because they feel threatened by the truth of the situation? And he lets them, knowing what his Father will do

John 12:24 Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.

If my scenario misses anything, I think its missing the resurrection (replaced with the memorial through which the son lives on) rather than the sacrifice. No allegories are perfect (and this one is not meant to be); I think the careful reader will find the resurrection to be implied through the doctor's actions in honoring those that honored the memorial to his son, believed in him enough to do what he said and those that carried on his son's work in the 3rd world country.

Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus told them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

 

[WebersHome]

.

Everyone will be salted with fire.

The KJV tacks on some extra wording to Mark 9:49 so that it reads like this:

"For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt."

I checked an interlinear and discovered that the second half of that verse doesn't belong there because it's not in the Greek manuscript. Apparently the KJV's editors took the liberty to pencil it in. So we may safely scratch it out like this:

"For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt."

The "every one" spoken of in verse 49 likely belongs with the wretched souls in verses 47 & 48, where it's stated:

"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

*Incidentally, Christ didn't reveal anything new when he spoke of the worms and the fire. The prophet Isaiah was like 700 years ahead of him. (Isa 66:23-24)
_

 

[BNR32FAN]

Christ said "Follow me" I think, among other things. "I am the Way, the Truth, the Life"
I don't think a man who is following Christ is "healing himself"
But I do think he will be healed.
Without Christ, he has nothing to follow that will do that.



Probably around the point that the mob kills him because they feel threatened by the truth of the situation? And he lets them, knowing what his Father will do

If my scenario misses anything, I think its missing the resurrection (replaced with the memorial through which the son lives on) rather than the sacrifice. No allegories are perfect (and this one is not meant to be); I think the careful reader will find the resurrection to be implied through the doctor's actions in honoring those that honored the memorial to his son, believed in him enough to do what he said and those that carried on his son's work in the 3rd world country.

Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus told them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Well a scenario without Christ’s sacrifice is lacking the biggest part of the example. I don’t think that a scenario lacking such a crucial part of Christ’s involvement in our salvation can accurately describe how we are saved. I mean after all salvation wouldn’t even be possible without His sacrifice.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Christ said "Follow me" I think, among other things. "I am the Way, the Truth, the Life"
I don't think a man who is following Christ is "healing himself"
But I do think he will be healed.
Without Christ, he has nothing to follow that will do that.



Probably around the point that the mob kills him because they feel threatened by the truth of the situation? And he lets them, knowing what his Father will do

John 12:24 Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.

If my scenario misses anything, I think its missing the resurrection (replaced with the memorial through which the son lives on) rather than the sacrifice. No allegories are perfect (and this one is not meant to be); I think the careful reader will find the resurrection to be implied through the doctor's actions in honoring those that honored the memorial to his son, believed in him enough to do what he said and those that carried on his son's work in the 3rd world country.

Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus told them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

See I don’t believe that our atonement is a one time event but an ongoing event provided that we repent of our sins.

“My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭NASB

Here John indicates that even our sins after we have come to Christ are forgiven and paid in full. Now of course repentance is implied in this message. Obviously if we turn away from God and don’t repent then our sins will not be forgiven.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Your question seems to prove my point.
The words stare at me blankly, unable to comprehend the value of a living breathing soul for which God gave his only begotten to purchase back from death. smh

Saint Steven said: ↑
This is the way Damnationism devalues humanity. Those created in God's image.

There is reason to believe that, were God to withdraw from us, we would even cease to exist, or at least, would become wraiths at best, altogether lacking in virtue or anything else to commend ourselves to anyone.

Scripture does not claim that Christ actually paid the penalty of the sin of the damned. If he died "for" them, it was only as offered --if they would have received, then actual, but the ultimately damned never do.

Double payment makes no sense, I think you would agree on at least that.

 

[Petros2015]

See I don’t believe that our atonement is a one time event but an ongoing event provided that we repent of our sins.

We are in complete agreement here, I think. I love 1 John very much.

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

This too, I feel is ongoing and not a one time event. At least, it needs to be, in my experience.

To me, it's a bit like a man setting out on a journey - he's heading True North.
He has a compass with him that was given to him as gift from the King of the North, even though earlier in his life he was 'headed South' so to speak and belonged to the King of the South

No matter how far he may stray, or in what direction he turns himself, that compass will always point True North. It's a continuous invitation. He can never get so far South that the compass will become angry and cease to tell him in what direction to head when he looks to it. And there are good things awaiting the man, the further North he travels. When he travels North, he belongs to the Kingdom of the North and has his back to the King of the South. When he travels South, he belongs to the Kingdom of the South, and has his back to the King of the North.

He will never get all the way North or South. But eventually the man will be met by the King whose land he belongs to and have the reward appropriate to the progress of his journey. And that King will take him by the hand, and take him the rest of the way, whether he likes it or not.

Some people say, "the journey of 10,000 miles starts with the first step". But I like to say "No, it starts with pointing yourself in the right direction. It might not take 10,000 miles if you do. It may take considerably more if you don't." And if I am going on a lifetime journey, it might help to check the compass I was given, frequently, and correct my direction. Otherwise, I wouldn't anticipate arriving at my intended destination. It, like me, was bought with a price.

 

[Petros2015]

There is reason to believe that, were God to withdraw from us, we would even cease to exist, or at least, would become wraiths at best, altogether lacking in virtue or anything else to commend ourselves to anyone.

Yes... people sometimes speak of 'the oxygen leaving the room' when someone unpleasant arrives or something bad happens. I think as long as there is the breath of life in our lungs, God is at least somewhat present.

I can imagine a room full of friends, laughing and enjoying each others company. What I consider to be 'the spirit of God' is present there, whether they know it or not, and that is Grace. Sometimes we enjoy a greater portion of it and we are always happier when we do (whether we recognize the source of it or not). But if it were to withdraw slowly and completely over the course of an hour, they would become envious or irritated with one another. Resentments would be remembered and manufactured. Just before it left completely they would be at each other's throats, and when it was gone completely, so too would be the life of them. At least, this is how I imagine things.

 

[BNR32FAN]

We are in complete agreement here, I think. I love 1 John very much.

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

This too, I feel is ongoing and not a one time event. At least, it needs to be, in my experience.

To me, it's a bit like a man setting out on a journey - he's heading True North.
He has a compass with him that was given to him as gift from the King of the North, even though earlier in his life he was 'headed South' so to speak and belonged to the King of the South

No matter how far he may stray, or in what direction he turns himself, that compass will always point True North. It's a continuous invitation. He can never get so far South that the compass will become angry and cease to tell him in what direction to head when he looks to it. And there are good things awaiting the man, the further North he travels. When he travels North, he belongs to the Kingdom of the North and has his back to the King of the South. When he travels South, he belongs to the Kingdom of the South, and has his back to the King of the North.

He will never get all the way North or South. But eventually the man will be met by the King whose land he belongs to and have the reward appropriate to the progress of his journey. And that King will take him by the hand, and take him the rest of the way, whether he likes it or not.

Some people say, "the journey of 10,000 miles starts with the first step". But I like to say "No, it starts with pointing yourself in the right direction. It might not take 10,000 miles if you do. It may take considerably more if you don't." And if I am going on a lifetime journey, it might help to check the compass I was given, frequently, and correct my direction. Otherwise, I wouldn't anticipate arriving at my intended destination. It, like me, was bought with a price.

I use the same analogy when I’m talking about the Holy Spirit. Some people say that once you receive the Holy Spirit your saved no matter what you do. They tend to quote the second part of Ephesians 4:30 completely leaving out the part where Paul says do not grieve the Holy Spirit. They just want to use the part where he says that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption as evidence of eternal security. Eternal security isn’t attained until the race is finished. There are many teachings of the Roman Catholic Church that I do agree with, purgatory just isn’t one of them. I tend to lean more towards the Orthodox teachings on salvation. I don’t embrace all of their teachings which is why I consider myself nondenominational but I do have a great deal of respect for them.

 

[WebersHome]

.
One Sunday morning in Bible class at church, a man asked this question:

What about the unconfessed sins we take with us to the next life?

He was thinking of a passage in John's first epistle which says:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

We can answer the man's question very simply with a modern idiom that goes like this:

What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.

In a nutshell; when people are born again via the regeneration spoken of at John 3:3-8, they undergo a supernatural circumcision. (Col 2:11-13)

This particular circumcision separates their new self from their original self so that any and all sins committed by their original self are not held against their new self; which according to 1John 3:9 never has any sins to answer for because it's 100% sinless.

In other words; the new self and the original self are not joined at the hip, i.e. the old self is not credited with the new self's righteousness, nor is the new self accountable for the old self's unrighteousness.

Plus, at the moment of a born-again Christian's regeneration; God stops compiling their sins in a sort of indictment with which He would normally use against them to block their access to heaven. (2Cor 5:19)

So then; when born again, regenerated Christians pass on, the sins committed by their old self do not accompany their new self to the other side. The old self's sins somehow, in some supernatural way that I've yet to fully understand, end up in oblivion.

• Col 3:3 . . For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

FAQ: If unconfessed sins have no effect upon a born again, regenerated Christian's access to heaven, then what sensible purpose do their confessions serve?

A: The answer to that is "fellowship" which is an element of Christianity very difficult to discuss on world-wide internet forms. I've been down that road only to arrive in a cul-de-sac of perpetual debating, quarrelling, ugly remarks, toxic rejoinders, demeaning comments, ridicule, angry reactions, recriminations, fault finding, name calling, animosity, hostility, and hurt feelings; so leave me out of it.
_

 

[Mark Quayle]

Here John indicates that even our sins after we have come to Christ are forgiven and paid in full. Now of course repentance is implied in this message. Obviously if we turn away from God and don’t repent then our sins will not be forgiven.

We are in complete agreement here, I think. I love 1 John very much.

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

This too, I feel is ongoing and not a one time event. At least, it needs to be, in my experience.

To me, it's a bit like a man setting out on a journey - he's heading True North.
He has a compass with him that was given to him as gift from the King of the North, even though earlier in his life he was 'headed South' so to speak and belonged to the King of the South

No matter how far he may stray, or in what direction he turns himself, that compass will always point True North. It's a continuous invitation. He can never get so far South that the compass will become angry and cease to tell him in what direction to head when he looks to it. And there are good things awaiting the man, the further North he travels. When he travels North, he belongs to the Kingdom of the North and has his back to the King of the South. When he travels South, he belongs to the Kingdom of the South, and has his back to the King of the North.

He will never get all the way North or South. But eventually the man will be met by the King whose land he belongs to and have the reward appropriate to the progress of his journey. And that King will take him by the hand, and take him the rest of the way, whether he likes it or not.

Some people say, "the journey of 10,000 miles starts with the first step". But I like to say "No, it starts with pointing yourself in the right direction. It might not take 10,000 miles if you do. It may take considerably more if you don't." And if I am going on a lifetime journey, it might help to check the compass I was given, frequently, and correct my direction. Otherwise, I wouldn't anticipate arriving at my intended destination. It, like me, was bought with a price.

The fact that mankind is bound within time (for now, haha), and God is not, might be relevant to the discussion. From out point of view it is necessary to not just repent one time, nor even multiple times, but to BE repentant. From God's point of view, he need forgive only once, and Christ need not die multiple times, but only once for all our sin.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yes... people sometimes speak of 'the oxygen leaving the room' when someone unpleasant arrives or something bad happens. I think as long as there is the breath of life in our lungs, God is at least somewhat present.

I can imagine a room full of friends, laughing and enjoying each others company. What I consider to be 'the spirit of God' is present there, whether they know it or not, and that is Grace. Sometimes we enjoy a greater portion of it and we are always happier when we do (whether we recognize the source of it or not). But if it were to withdraw slowly and completely over the course of an hour, they would become envious or irritated with one another. Resentments would be remembered and manufactured. Just before it left completely they would be at each other's throats, and when it was gone completely, so too would be the life of them. At least, this is how I imagine things.

Well put. Well said.

 

[Saint Steven]

"where their worm does not die"
might in that analogy become
"where their cancer is not cured"

Not a punishment, but a necessary outcome of choosing to skip Chemo

In this case, I think the worm is the cure. And it will not give up until it has completed the healing. I think some cultures actually use worms for healing.

 

[Mark Quayle]

In this case, I think the worm is the cure. And it will not give up until it has completed the healing. I think some cultures actually use worms for healing.

I have heard of maggots being used to eat away dead tissue/ gangrene.

 

[Saint Steven]

The "every one" spoken of in verse 49 likely belongs with the wretched souls in verses 47 & 48, where it's stated:

"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Wretched souls?
Who is Christ speaking to? (those entering the kingdom)

 

[Saint Steven]

There is reason to believe that, were God to withdraw from us, we would even cease to exist, or at least, would become wraiths at best, altogether lacking in virtue or anything else to commend ourselves to anyone.

Scripture does not claim that Christ actually paid the penalty of the sin of the damned. If he died "for" them, it was only as offered --if they would have received, then actual, but the ultimately damned never do.

Double payment makes no sense, I think you would agree on at least that.

It does little good to show you what the Bible says about this if you are just going to talk your way around it. Can't you take the scripture at face value?

 

[Saint Steven]

A new Christmas song with a gospel message. Joy to the world.

Gift-Wrapped