Who Doesn't Go To Hell?

[Mark Quayle]

This is an interesting discussion. Thanks.

In reading this bit it occurred to me that trees in the garden may have had "dead" leaves that need to come off the tree to make room for new ones. A sign of growth rather than death. The same with A&E before the Fall. Hair and fingernails would grow and need to be trimmed, making room for more hair and nails. Perhaps the oldest profession was salon work, rather than what is usually claimed. - lol

In the last sentence of your first paragraph above you write:
"Their minds were certainly changed from innocence, and their bodies began the long slow decline we now experience."

Does that indicate a massive change in the physical universe? What was once kept in ageless stasis now is in decline?

I wasn't clear. I believe they were different from animals in both the spiritual and physical, and only their death was implied by the promise that they would surely die. To me it makes sense that entropy applied to all other things, though God also cursed Adam and Eve with toil and suffering, as regards those other things. It seems possible, however, that their time in the garden was short, and had it continued their bodies also would have eventually died. I just don't take the standard idea of 'no death before the fall'.

As for the universe itself, it is a curious and deep question just what sin has done to it. I don't believe sin introduced entropy, nor for that matter, does 'entropy' quite equal 'decline'. 'Entropy' (order to disorder) is a falsifiable observation. 'Decline' (good to bad) is a non-falsifiable judgement call.

Sin is what one friend of mine calls 'Cosmic Treason', and what I think of as being of an infinite nature in that it is against infinite God. To me, it is hard enough to understand how something can exist that is not God himself, but the idea that that something can rebel against its own creator to me is outrageous (to put it mildly). I like to say that sin is something, that, if it was not for the power of God and who he is, would tear a rip in the space-time continuum, and the whole thing would collapse.

 

[Ligurian]

.
• 2Cor 5:19 . . God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ; not counting men's sins against them.

Let's say, hypothetically, that a redeemed Charles Manson is summoned to appear and a bailiff delivers his book to the Judge. Upon examining Charles' book, the Judge would have to acquit Mr. Manson because there would be no entries in his book for the Judge to charge him with.
_

John 10:27-29 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand. My Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand. Revelation 3:8-10

 

[Saint Steven]

I wasn't clear. I believe they were different from animals in both the spiritual and physical, and only their death was implied by the promise that they would surely die. To me it makes sense that entropy applied to all other things, though God also cursed Adam and Eve with toil and suffering, as regards those other things. It seems possible, however, that their time in the garden was short, and had it continued their bodies also would have eventually died. I just don't take the standard idea of 'no death before the fall'.

As for the universe itself, it is a curious and deep question just what sin has done to it. I don't believe sin introduced entropy, nor for that matter, does 'entropy' quite equal 'decline'. 'Entropy' (order to disorder) is a falsifiable observation. 'Decline' (good to bad) is a non-falsifiable judgement call.

Sin is what one friend of mine calls 'Cosmic Treason', and what I think of as being of an infinite nature in that it is against infinite God. To me, it is hard enough to understand how something can exist that is not God himself, but the idea that that something can rebel against its own creator to me is outrageous (to put it mildly). I like to say that sin is something, that, if it was not for the power of God and who he is, would tear a rip in the space-time continuum, and the whole thing would collapse.

But doesn't it seem that A&E were set up?

Put the tree in the middle of the garden and then say, "You must not eat of it."

 

[Mark Quayle]

But doesn't it seem that A&E were set up?

Put the tree in the middle of the garden and then say, "You must not eat of it."

Yep. It does that! To me, it is in two ways obviously a predetermined outcome, and thank God for that!

 

[Saint Steven]

Yep. It does that! To me, it is in two ways obviously a predetermined outcome, and thank God for that!

Yes, fortunately the redemptive plan preceded the Fall.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yes, fortunately the redemptive plan preceded the Fall.

This is why I tell atheists etc. that Christianity was around at the very beginning. There has only ever been one way to the Father. One Gospel.