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Who Doesn't Go To Hell?

Mark Quayle

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Well, that is what the claims of Damnationism say about God's plan for humankind. The vast majority created just to burn for eternity. Predestined for eternal conscious torment.

The Damnationists refuse to blame God for creating hell and for purposely predestining the vast majority to abide there forever. Claiming sinners want to go to hell. Claiming they deserve it. Claiming it is God's perfect justice. Claiming that heaven would be hell if these perpetrators didn't suffer eternally.

The gospel of Damnationism is an expense product with a 99.99 percent failure rate. Yet Damnationists will fight tooth and nail to preserve it. They have their Get-out-of-hell-free card. So, why worry about anyone else? Those who end up there deserve it anyway. Who can question God's perfect justice?

Saint Steven said:
If you were an investor, would you invest in an expense product that had a 99.99 percent failure rate?

Why complain about how many there are? If there's even one, given your logic, it is failure. In fact, given your thinking, why did he even make Satan? Have you no sympathy in you?

You sound like the unbelievers I talk with. They don't seem to understand that God did not make the damned for the mere purpose of damnation. Nor do they understand why God made humanity. "Who are you, Oh man?"

God did not make humanity for the sake of humanity. This life is not for this life.
 
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Saint Steven

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... You sound like the unbelievers I talk with. They don't seem to understand that God did not make the damned for the mere purpose of damnation. ...
For what purpose did God "make the damned"? (if not for damnation)
 
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Saint Steven

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... God did not make humanity for the sake of humanity. This life is not for this life.
The gospel of Damnationism is extortion. A confession extracted under threat, or torture. (psychological) What you call "the sum of all fears". (if that was you)

How many have surrendered to "Christianity" under the threat of eternal conscious torment? Is that a healthy basis for a restored relationship with God? Or more like bowing to a cosmic totalitarian regime? (for the sake of self-preservation)
 
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Saint Steven

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Why complain about how many there are? If there's even one, given your logic, it is failure. In fact, given your thinking, why did he even make Satan? Have you no sympathy in you?
Sympathy for the Devil? (The Rolling Stones) LOL

Yes, if even one soul is in eternal conscious torment, God has failed and sin is the eternal victor. And the price God/Christ paid was not sufficient to solve the sin issue completely.

Damnationism believes that the sin problem was just swept under the rug to be forgotten about. Creating the elephant in the room of heaven. Where's Charlie? (don't ask)

Damnationists believe that Charlie put himself there. Even though God created hell and predestined him to it.

I have good news to share. What God/Christ did was indeed sufficient.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 
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WebersHome

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This is the way Damnationism devalues humanity. Those created in God's image.
I don't know about the "ism" part of your complaint against damnation, but I do know that God-given damnation practices began soon after the Flood; and they're not optional, no, they're mandatory.

Gen 9:5-6 . . Surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it, and from every man; from every man's brother I will require the life of man. Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God made He man.

The thing is: capital punishment serves to devalue the lives of murderers, while at the same time protecting the dignity of the image of God.

According to Rom 13:1-4, people who stand against capital punishment are in open rebellion against Almighty God's sovereign mandate; and there are many out there in the world identifying themselves as Christians who are very guilty of it.


NOTE: There is a very grim mode of capital punishment depicted at Rev 20:11-15 whereby people will be executed in a manner similar to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron. Nowadays that would be called cruel and unusual punishment; but in that day, it will be the new normal.

That will be a very disturbing event. When it begins to sink into their thick skulls that everything they've heard about Hell is true; I suspect people will begin screaming, shrieking, crying and bellowing like wounded dogs; as their eyes, wild with panic, look for somebody, something, anything, to grab and cling to as strong celestial beings are given the order to take them away. And who will give the order? None other than the sweet little babe away in a manger.

Acts 17:30-31 . . God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising him from the dead.

John 5:22 . . John 5:22-23 . . Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may [revere] the Son just as they [revere] the Father. He who does not [revere] the Son, does not revere the Father, who sent him.
_
 
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Saint Steven

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I don't know about the "ism" part of your complaint against damnation...
I don't want you to be uninformed. I can help.

There are three biblical views of the final judgment.
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restorationism
 
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Saint Steven

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The thing is: capital punishment serves to devalue the lives of murderers, while at the same time protecting the dignity of the image of God.
Are you claiming that murders were not created in the image of God?
 
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WebersHome

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How many have surrendered to "Christianity" under the threat of eternal conscious torment? Is that a healthy basis for a restored relationship with God?
Health and Safety are joined at the hip.


Or more like bowing to a cosmic totalitarian regime?
"It's either join or hang; that's about the size of it."
(Long John Silver; Treasure Island)



(for the sake of self-preservation)
"A danger foreseen; is half-avoided."
(Cheyenne Proverb)

"A prudent man sees danger and takes refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it."
(Solomon, Prov 22:3)

"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."
(Jesus of Nazareth, Luke 12:4-5)
_
 
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WebersHome

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"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."
(Jesus of Nazareth, Luke 12:4-5)
NOTE: According to Matt 10:28, the body and the soul are perishable. However; though the body is perishable by any means, the soul is perishable only by divine means; i.e. the deaths of body and soul aren't necessarily simultaneous, viz: the soul lives on until such a time as God decides to give it either a thumb up or a thumb down.
_
 
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Saint Steven

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"It's either join or hang; that's about the size of it."
Is that ship flying the Jolly Roger? (skull and bones) Jesus with an eye patch and parrot on his shoulder. - lol

The Way the Truth the Life. Or you can walk the plank. The sharks are waiting for you.

Saint Steven said:
Or more like bowing to a cosmic totalitarian regime?
 
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Saint Steven

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"A danger foreseen; is half-avoided."
(Cheyenne Proverb)

"A prudent man sees danger and takes refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it."
(Solomon, Prov 22:3)

"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."
(Jesus of Nazareth, Luke 12:4-5)
Back to my original question: What about the countless billions that had no prior knowledge? Is that fair justice?

Saint Steven said:
(for the sake of self-preservation)
 
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Saint Steven

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NOTE: According to Matt 10:28, the body and the soul are perishable. However; though the body is perishable by any means, the soul is perishable only by divine means; i.e. the deaths of body and soul aren't necessarily simultaneous, viz: the soul lives on until such a time as God decides to give it either a thumb up or a thumb down.
_
That is Annihilationism. (the ethical fall-back position from Damnationism) What about the forever burning hell? Isn't that biblical?
 
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Mark Quayle

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For what purpose did God "make the damned"? (if not for damnation)
Romans 9 gives one specific reason --this isn't the first time we've been through this--

"14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

"16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

"19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

"22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—"

To show his justice, to display his power, to make known the riches of his glory to the objects of his mercy.

An honest question: Do you accept the authority of Scripture?
 
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Mark Quayle

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The gospel of Damnationism is extortion. A confession extracted under threat, or torture. (psychological) What you call "the sum of all fears". (if that was you)

How many have surrendered to "Christianity" under the threat of eternal conscious torment? Is that a healthy basis for a restored relationship with God? Or more like bowing to a cosmic totalitarian regime? (for the sake of self-preservation)
Honest question: Do you accept the authority of Scripture?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Sympathy for the Devil? (The Rolling Stones) LOL

Yes, if even one soul is in eternal conscious torment, God has failed and sin is the eternal victor. And the price God/Christ paid was not sufficient to solve the sin issue completely.

Damnationism believes that the sin problem was just swept under the rug to be forgotten about. Creating the elephant in the room of heaven. Where's Charlie? (don't ask)

Damnationists believe that Charlie put himself there. Even though God created hell and predestined him to it.

I have good news to share. What God/Christ did was indeed sufficient.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

On the contrary, God is that much above us --i.e. infinitely and in every way-- that the existence of any of us resembles simple mechanical fact by comparison, but you want to endow us with an equal state of existence as he possesses. It is only because of his plan and use for us that we are of any worth. You think you can stand up to him and call him to account? "Who are you, oh man, to talk back to God?"

You don't even have honest questions for him --your questions presume the universe revolves around YOU. (That's ok --none of us have quite honest questions for him).

You quote Scripture for what --to use against us, who believe Scripture? I will quote your Romans 5 reference again, including your emphasis: verses 18,19
"
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."

"All" and "the many" are to show the scope of the point --not the point itself. That is to say, "If anybody at all is to be made righteous, it is through the obedience of the one man." as it says elsewhere, "There is one God and one mediator --the man Christ Jesus." Likewise, "As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive" is the same sort of construction: In the same way all die in Adam, so nobody can be made alive but by Christ.

Again: "Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." Nobody is outside the principle of justice, of death for sin; likewise, nobody is outside the principle of justification and life by the the righteous act of Christ.

You want to know where the authority to treat these verses comes from, instead of reading them as you do, by themselves, out of context? It comes from the rest of Scripture. Where do you get any authority to read them as stand-alone verses? Paul talks in whole discourses of rhetoric --not in stand alone wise sayings and theological statements.
 
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lordjeff

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About the Roman Centurion, in the Orthodox tradition, this man soon recognized the Messiah so in the tradition he is the 1st person at the gate of heaven. In all frankness, it is the Creator who assigns our fate, not our thinking cap. The Catholic Catechism on Judas Iscariot-it's known to God alone.
 
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Saint Steven

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"14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
There you go. God is not unjust at all.

Compassion is when we get what we don't deserve. (a positive outcome)
Mercy is when we don't get what we deserve. (a positive outcome)

Where is the Damnationism, or Annihilationism in that?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Back to my original question: What about the countless billions that had no prior knowledge? Is that fair justice?

Saint Steven said:
(for the sake of self-preservation)
Good old Romans: "... so that they are without excuse."
 
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Mark Quayle

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There you go. God is not unjust at all.

Compassion is when we get what we don't deserve. (a positive outcome)
Mercy is when we don't get what we deserve. (a positive outcome)

Where is the Damnationism, or Annihilationism in that?
"He will have mercy on whom he will have mercy, and he will harden whom he will harden."
 
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