LDS Who did Joseph Smith see in the "Sacred Grove?"

[He is the way]

Yes, I understand. My understanding is that the revelation that God the Father used to be a man is not in the Book or Mormon, or the Pearl of Great Price. It's only in the 3rd collection of revelations: D&C. It kind of came late, correct?

I have to confess that I admire your ability to quote a lot of verses on certain topics.

Actually it is not found in the D&C either. Joseph Smith taught this in a sermon at the funeral of Elder King Follett in 1844. There is a statement in the D&C about God the Father having a body:

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 130:22 - 23)

22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.
23 A man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him.

That being said all of this still has to be understood in the context of this scripture:

(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 15:2 - 9)

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.
6 And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.
7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father.
8 And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men—
9 Having ascended into heaven, having the bowels of mercy; being filled with compassion towards the children of men; standing betwixt them and justice; having broken the bands of death, taken upon himself their iniquity and their transgressions, having redeemed them, and satisfied the demands of justice.

Here is another important scripture relating to this:

(New Testament | Romans 8:16 - 19)

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

I hope this helps.

 

[Andrewn]

Actually it is not found in the D&C either. Joseph Smith taught this in a sermon at the funeral of Elder King Follett in 1844. There is a statement in the D&C about God the Father having a body:

The Father having a body of flesh and bone is wrong but it was believed by some ancient Christians.

It's the idea that God the Father had a father and was a human being that is really really strange. If it is absent from your scriptures and was only said in a funeral, it could be taken not as a revelation but as hyperbole that is said to comfort people, no?

The quotation from BOM is confusing and seems to be Modalistic in nature, which I keep saying about the BOM in general.

 

[He is the way]

The Father having a body of flesh and bone is wrong but it was believed by some ancient Christians.

It's the idea that God the Father had a father and was a human being that is really really strange. If it is absent from your scriptures and was only said in a funeral, it could be taken not as a revelation but as hyperbole that is said to comfort people, no?

The quotation from BOM is confusing and seems to be Modalistic in nature, which I keep saying about the BOM in general.

As for God the Father having a Father, The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints does not specifically teach this nor is it found in our doctrine. Some have speculated this is the case because we do believe in eternal progression. We are told that if we want to know more about God we should pray about it. That being said God will only reveal what He wants us to know.

The quotation from Book of Mormon is confusing, but one thing we do know is that Jesus does indeed have a resurrected of flesh and bones. The confusing part is how the body and the spirit are separate entities. We also see this in the scriptures:

(New Testament | Matthew 26:41)

41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

(New Testament | Romans 8:26 - 28)

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 3:16)

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

(New Testament | John 10:34 - 35)

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Are we Gods because of the spirit of God that is in us?

 

[mmksparbud]

That's convenient when you don't have a reasonable explanation to support your claim. It also means you have nothing to offer as evidence against what I might offer. Basically, your position is one in the dark (as in lacking evidence or information).




Purely your opinion.




More opinion.




Just to be clear on this, Jesus says this about Himself. Jesus is definitely the one speaking in this verse. And you have identified that He is referring to Himself.

LOL!! I have what Jesus said, and unlike you, that is all I need! I know the Holy Spirit can be everywhere at the same time. I know we are all Spirit led and Son of God. I know we are adopted---and the natural offspring need not be adopted. So no one is going to tell me I am the natural product of the Father and one of His wives. I know that no man can see the Father and live. Jesus has seen Him for He is still divine though 100% human. What I do know comes from the bible. You can not say that.

Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Joh_6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Act_2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom_8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom_8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom_8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom_9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Gal_4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Eph_1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


You did not show me where I was inconsistent.

 

[Ran77]

You did not show me where I was inconsistent.

That is incorrect. I highlighted the two contradictory statements.

 

[Ran77]

I have what Jesus said, and unlike you, that is all I need!

You don't know what I need. Anyone who is so quick to tell others what they need, feel, or think obviously doesn't know any such thing. To open up your post with a line like this is only telling me that whatever follows is likely to be just as made up and inaccurate.

Speaking for someone else is never a good or reasonable tactic.

I know the Holy Spirit can be everywhere at the same time. I know we are all Spirit led and Son of God. I know we are adopted---and the natural offspring need not be adopted. So no one is going to tell me I am the natural product of the Father and one of His wives. I know that no man can see the Father and live. Jesus has seen Him for He is still divine though 100% human.

This is not the topic. At this point, the discussion has wandered away from the topic. Not a good sign for your arguments if you have to sidetrack the discussion rather than give evidence that your views are correct.

What I do know comes from the bible. You can not say that.

You have no idea what I know or don't know. My family and friends have heard enough from me to make a pretty good guess and God knows my thoughts, but you don't fall into either category. This is simply an irresponsible opinion. Why not stick to facts instead of making comments about something you absolutely don't have a clue to whether they are true?

I mean, if a person is willing to make blatantly inaccurate claims like this, how can I trust anything else they have to offer?

Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Joh_6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

I've already addressed the verse in John 4 and shown the flaw with mainstream Christianity's interpretation of the verse.

 

[Ran77]

You did not show me where I was inconsistent.

I went back and reread your post. I can see that from your interpretation the two statements are not contradictory. I retract my claim on that specific matter.

 

[Ran77]

Joh_6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

He was referring to Himself.

It appears that we interpret this verse differently. Am I correct that you believe that "save he which is of God" specifically means Jesus and only Jesus?

Because that would be inconsistent with the way the verse reads. The first part of the verse states, "Not that any man hath seen the Father . . ."

Your argument against Joseph Smith having seen Heavenly Father is based on the first part of this verse. Because Joseph is a part of that "any man" that is listed. Your argument takes this term to mean anyone in the human race.

Then we have "save he which is of God." Your interpretation takes that to mean Jesus, the Son of God. Because Jesus is of God. The problem with that is the second part of the verse states "except." That is a term that identifies that whoever can see God comes from the "any man" group, but that there is/are some exceptions. If "he which is of God" means the Son of God, there is no exception. He is singular and unique. He cannot be part of the "any man" group. The verse, or at least the interpretation of the verse, is flawed in that situation.

However, if "he which is of God" means the loyal followers of God, then that discrepancy goes away. Those who are faithful to God are a part of the "any man" group. And with that interpretation, the verse basically reads, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is a faithful follower of God.

This is what verse 45 says, "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, come unto me." This is talking about being a faithful follower of God.

Also, verse 40 states this, "And this is the will of him that sent me, that everyone which seeth the Son and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day."

This established the meaning of the word "see/seeth" and makes it clear that the verses aren't even talking about visually seeing the Father. Because, if this was to be taken literally, as you are taking verse 46 literally, then none of us will be raised up in the last day. I doubt that any of us have literally seen the Son. Context is important. And when read in context the verse you are using just doesn't support the meaning you give it.

 

[mmksparbud]

I knew I had seen this statement before.

​

By your own statement, John 6:46 talks about the Father and this means Jesus. Which contradicts the statement you made above. Your arguments are not consistent. They change to support whatever point you are wanting to make at the moment.

No---you did not! Jesus is human, will retain His humanity forever. He can no longer be exactly as the Father, of exactly the same substance, for the Father was never human, nor was the Holy Spirit. They can stand side by side and are different. We will have the body of Jesus, but we will not look exactly like Him for we will be ourselves, retaining our own individuality. We are all one in character, LDS have frequently said that they are one in purpose, they are all different. Are you disagreeing with the rest of your buddies? We've always maintained they are 3 in one, one in character, they have their own "jobs" sort of saying. Jesus is the Creator of all, the OT pointed to Jesus. Jesus in the NT always points to God, the Holy Spirit teaches us all about the 3.
Again, JS did not see the Father.

Joh_1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
1Ti_6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1Jn_4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
-He is not the father in exact likeness. Already went through that. Jesus, is human, still is, The Father was never human, therefore they are not exactly alike.

 

[mmksparbud]

It appears that we interpret this verse differently. Am I correct that you believe that "save he which is of God" specifically means Jesus and only Jesus?

Because that would be inconsistent with the way the verse reads. The first part of the verse states, "Not that any man hath seen the Father . . ."

Your argument against Joseph Smith having seen Heavenly Father is based on the first part of this verse. Because Joseph is a part of that "any man" that is listed. Your argument takes this term to mean anyone in the human race.

Then we have "save he which is of God." Your interpretation takes that to mean Jesus, the Son of God. Because Jesus is of God. The problem with that is the second part of the verse states "except." That is a term that identifies that whoever can see God comes from the "any man" group, but that there is/are some exceptions. If "he which is of God" means the Son of God, there is no exception. He is singular and unique. He cannot be part of the "any man" group. The verse, or at least the interpretation of the verse, is flawed in that situation.

However, if "he which is of God" means the loyal followers of God, then that discrepancy goes away. Those who are faithful to God are a part of the "any man" group. And with that interpretation, the verse basically reads, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is a faithful follower of God.

This is what verse 45 says, "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, come unto me." This is talking about being a faithful follower of God.

Also, verse 40 states this, "And this is the will of him that sent me, that everyone which seeth the Son and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day."

This established the meaning of the word "see/seeth" and makes it clear that the verses aren't even talking about visually seeing the Father. Because, if this was to be taken literally, as you are taking verse 46 literally, then none of us will be raised up in the last day. I doubt that any of us have literally seen the Son. Context is important. And when read in context the verse you are using just doesn't support the meaning you give it.

The only men who have seen the Father, are those that are in heaven now---Enoch and Elijah were translated never having experienced death. Moses was resurrected in Jude 9. There were those that were resurrected when Jesus died on the cross and may have been taken to heaven but the bible does not say so. JS was a human sinner not having been resurrected from the dead and taken to heaven, He was a sinner, as such not able to see God the Father and live. Only the completely sinless are able to look upon Him. All who are saved will be in the New Heavens and Earth and will be able to live in the presence of God.

Rev_21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Isa 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
Isa 33:17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

 

[Ran77]

I decided to check Strong's Lexicon on the verse in question.

The word translated as see is horao, which has these meanings.

G3700), i.e. (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension, to attend to; by Hebraism, to experience; passively, to appear:—behold, perceive, see, take heed.

1. to see with the eyes
   
   
2. to see with the mind, to perceive, know
   
   
3. to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience
   
   
4. to see, to look to
   
   1. to take heed, beware
      
      
   2. to care for, pay heed to
      
5. I was seen, showed myself, appeared

Notice how several of these fit in exactly with what I offered above.

 

[Ran77]

No---you did not!

Really? You're going to argue that I hadn't seen your post before? What a ridiculous argument. Less than 70 posts in this thread and for some reason, you object to the possibility that I have read the post in question? Not a very sound argument. Not really I point I would defiantly make. It calls into question the credibility of your other statements.

Jesus is human, will retain His humanity forever. He can no longer be exactly as the Father, of exactly the same substance, for the Father was never human, nor was the Holy Spirit. They can stand side by side and are different. We will have the body of Jesus, but we will not look exactly like Him for we will be ourselves, retaining our own individuality. We are all one in character, LDS have frequently said that they are one in purpose, they are all different. Are you disagreeing with the rest of your buddies? We've always maintained they are 3 in one, one in character, they have their own "jobs" sort of saying. Jesus is the Creator of all, the OT pointed to Jesus. Jesus in the NT always points to God, the Holy Spirit teaches us all about the 3.

This is a mish-mash of opinion, unsupported by scripture. There is no logical argument here that refutes my claims. You are definitely not responding to the points I made.

Again, JS did not see the Father.

Your opinion. Not supported by the verse you previously posted.

 

[Ran77]

Rev_21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

This does not specifically address seeing God the Father.

However, if you are attempting to say that the tabernacle of God is the Father's body and it would be obvious that someone will see him then here is what Strongs offers.

Skene is the word used for tabernacles and means this.

σκηνή skēnḗ, skay-nay'; apparently akin to G4632 and G4639; a tent or cloth hut (literally or figuratively):—habitation, tabernacle.

With that in mind, this is how the verse reads, "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the cloth hut of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people . . ."

Actually, that works against you. If we are talking about physically seeing God, then Him dwelling amongst His people would be a much greater indication that it was possible. This verse doesn't seem to work for your argument at all.

It would be best if you explained what you think these verses mean instead of leaving it to others to guess.

 

[Ran77]

JS was a human sinner . . .

All men are sinners. No mortal is perfect, except Jesus. Pointing out that Joseph Smith is a sinner proves nothing. Well, maybe it proves that he is part of humanity. I'm pretty sure that isn't a point that needs to be argued. As part of the greater group that is humanity, the portions of the Bible that apply to all of us apply to him as well. Which makes it unimportant to our discussion to bring up the point that he is both human and a sinner.

 

[Ran77]

Only the completely sinless are able to look upon Him.

Provide a verse that states this. That states only the completely sinless are able to look upon Him.

 

[mmksparbud]

I decided to check Strong's Lexicon on the verse in question.

The word translated as see is horao, which has these meanings.

G3700), i.e. (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension, to attend to; by Hebraism, to experience; passively, to appear:—behold, perceive, see, take heed.

1. to see with the eyes
   
   
2. to see with the mind, to perceive, know
   
   
3. to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience
   
   
4. to see, to look to
   1. to take heed, beware
      
      
   2. to care for, pay heed to
5. I was seen, showed myself, appeared

Notice how several of these fit in exactly with what I offered above.

You will, of course, choose whatever agrees with your own believes.


Panim---presence
The NAS Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon



Strong's Number: 6440 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
~ynp from (06437)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Paniym TWOT - 1782a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
paw-neem' Noun Masculine
Definition

1. face
   1. face, faces
   2. presence, person
   3. face (of seraphim or cherubim)
   4. face (of animals)
   5. face, surface (of ground)
   6. as adv of loc/temp
      1. before and behind, toward, in front of, forward, formerly, from beforetime, before
   7. with prep
      1. in front of, before, to the front of, in the presence of, in the face of, at the face or front of, from the presence of, from before, from before the face of

NAS Word Usage - Total: 1938
above 1, abroad* 1, accept* 3, accepted* 1, account 1, account* 2, across* 1, adjacent* 1, after* 1, again 1, against 6, against* 2, aged* 1, ahead 15, along* 1, anger 1, another* 1, appearance 2, appease* 1, around 1, attend 1, attend* 1, attended 1, attention 3, attitude 2, awaits 1, battle* 1, because* 80, before 868, before the in front 1, before* 137, condition 1, confront* 1, corresponding* 2, countenance 12, covering* 1, defer* 1, defiance* 1, direction 1, disposal 2, down 1, east 1, east* 1, east* 6, edge 2, entertained* 1, expected* 1, face 259, face to the before 2, face you first 1, face before 1, face* 2, faced 6, faced* 4, faces 49, faces in the presence 1, faces toward 1, faces* 1, facing 7, facing* 4, favor 9, favor* 3, former times 2, formerly 14, forward 3, front 86, front line 1, gaze 1, ground* 1, head 2, headlong 1, honor* 1, honorable* 3, humiliation* 1, insolent* 1, intended 1, kindly 2, land 1, leading 1, led 1, length* 1, lifetime 1, long 2, meet 6, mind 4, mouth 1, old 1, open 15, openly* 1, opposite* 5, ours 1, outer 1, outran* 1, over 3, over* 1, overlooks* 2, own 1, partial* 3, partiality* 11, personal 2, personally 2, preceded 2, presence 131, presence and before 1, presence of the before 1, presence on the before 1, presented* 2, previously 1, prior 1, receive* 2, remain* 1, repulse* 2, request 1, respect 1, respected* 1, served* 4, service* 3, shame* 2, sight 26, sight* 1, straight* 3, stubborn* 1, surface 26, table 1, tops 1, toward* 4, under 1, upside* 1, vanguard 1, whole 1, withstand* 1

 

[mmksparbud]

Provide a verse that states this. That states only the completely sinless are able to look upon Him.

It was already given to you, apparently you did not read it.

You, of course, do not understand the perfection of God. It is impossible to comprehend the Christian God from an LDS point of view for He is a man who became God. God is described over and over as a consuming, devouring fire.

Heb_12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Exo_24:17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
Isa_29:6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.
Isa_30:27 Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
Isa_30:30 And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.


Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Isa 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
Isa 33:17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

It's been shown here before, it's just that none of you wish to see it.

 

[mmksparbud]

This does not specifically address seeing God the Father.

However, if you are attempting to say that the tabernacle of God is the Father's body and it would be obvious that someone will see him then here is what Strongs offers.

Skene is the word used for tabernacles and means this.

σκηνή skēnḗ, skay-nay'; apparently akin to G4632 and G4639; a tent or cloth hut (literally or figuratively):—habitation, tabernacle.

With that in mind, this is how the verse reads, "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the cloth hut of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people . . ."

Actually, that works against you. If we are talking about physically seeing God, then Him dwelling amongst His people would be a much greater indication that it was possible. This verse doesn't seem to work for your argument at all.

It would be best if you explained what you think these verses mean instead of leaving it to others to guess.

I understand that you have a different view of life with God. But we do not believe that only certain exalted individuals will be able to see God. This is, and you obviously did not comprehend, that this is after the resurrection of the the righteous, and after the earth is remade and the Holy City comes down unto the remade earth. You have to actually read the bible to know that. God is seen by all the saved in the new earth.

 

[Ran77]

You will, of course, choose whatever agrees with your own believes.

Again, making claims about what I might, or might not, do is not pertinent to the discussion. The truth is that you don't know and it only establishes a willingness to make claims without any concern to their accuracy. Why not focus on the topic? Allow your views to stand on their own merit.

Panim---presence
The NAS Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
1

I see two problems with this.

1) This is taken from the Old Testament. There isn't a direct correlation made between the single word you posted and the chapter I quoted from. Picking random words isn't a reasonable argument against what I posted.

2) No reference. No context. No ability to see how this word was used and make sure it actually has any significance to the discussion.

 

[mmksparbud]

Again, making claims about what I might, or might not, do is not pertinent to the discussion. The truth is that you don't know and it only establishes a willingness to make claims without any concern to their accuracy. Why not focus on the topic? Allow your views to stand on their own merit.




I see two problems with this.

1) This is taken from the Old Testament. There isn't a direct correlation made between the single word you posted and the chapter I quoted from. Picking random words isn't a reasonable argument against what I posted.

2) No reference. No context. No ability to see how this word was used and make sure it actually has any significance to the discussion.

I have---you simply refuse to see it. I have given you verses to everything. Not my problem you reject the truth of the bible over the fantasies of JS. I can only suggest you read over everything again.