LDS Who did Joseph Smith see in the "Sacred Grove?"

[Ran77]

It was already given to you, apparently you did not read it.

I have moved the order of your comments around to clump them by topic I plan to address. I hope you won't mind.

Looking at the verses below, I don't see any mention of only the completely sinless will . . . well, that they will do anything. That's because those words are not in these verses. Nor are any words that convey the same meaning. What you previously stated is something that you invented and then attach to the verses we are discussing.

Heb_12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Exo_24:17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
Isa_29:6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.
Isa_30:27 Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
Isa_30:30 And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.


Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Isa 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
Isa 33:17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

You, of course, do not understand the perfection of God. It is impossible to comprehend the Christian God from an LDS point of view for He is a man who became God. God is described over and over as a consuming, devouring fire.

Again, what I do, or don't, understand is not the topic. I have to wonder if comments that cannot stay on topic are being used because there is nothing of substance to offer?

It's been shown here before, it's just that none of you wish to see it.

There appears to be an obsession with telling me what I know, what I wish, and what I can understand. If you don't have reasonable arguments against my view . . . fine. Just say so.

Here's the thing. As the Second Coming of the Savior approaches, our lives will grow more difficult. People will face tougher and tougher challenges. Tribulations that will humble many. Those humbled people will want to know the truth about the Savior. They will seek Him out. They will want answers. Being humbled and willing to listen, they will understand that the truth is not to be found in personal attacks or telling others what they think, feel, and know. They will not be interested in beliefs that rely on quoting verses out of context. They will not be fooled by beliefs that are logically inconsistent.

Anyone who hopes to reach these people will have to offer them clear and logical explanations of the Bible. Explanations that they can then take to the Lord and receive answers to whether they are true.

Just saying, but you do as you wish.

 

[Ran77]

I understand that you have a different view of life with God. But we do not believe that only certain exalted individuals will be able to see God. This is, and you obviously did not comprehend, that this is after the resurrection of the the righteous, and after the earth is remade and the Holy City comes down unto the remade earth. You have to actually read the bible to know that. God is seen by all the saved in the new earth.

Opinion and personal attack. Nothing to address here.

 

[Ran77]

I have---you simply refuse to see it. I have given you verses to everything. Not my problem you reject the truth of the bible over the fantasies of JS. I can only suggest you read over everything again.

Opinion and personal attacks. Nothing to see here, folks.

I'm just going to stop responding to posts unless they contain something more than opinion and personal attacks. Opinion can have value if they are attached to scriptures, but by themselves they offer only empty impressions.

 

[mmksparbud]

I have moved the order of your comments around to clump them by topic I plan to address. I hope you won't mind.

Looking at the verses below, I don't see any mention of only the completely sinless will . . . well, that they will do anything. That's because those words are not in these verses. Nor are any words that convey the same meaning. What you previously stated is something that you invented and then attach to the verses we are discussing.






Again, what I do, or don't, understand is not the topic. I have to wonder if comments that cannot stay on topic are being used because there is nothing of substance to offer?




There appears to be an obsession with telling me what I know, what I wish, and what I can understand. If you don't have reasonable arguments against my view . . . fine. Just say so.

Here's the thing. As the Second Coming of the Savior approaches, our lives will grow more difficult. People will face tougher and tougher challenges. Tribulations that will humble many. Those humbled people will want to know the truth about the Savior. They will seek Him out. They will want answers. Being humbled and willing to listen, they will understand that the truth is not to be found in personal attacks or telling others what they think, feel, and know. They will not be interested in beliefs that rely on quoting verses out of context. They will not be fooled by beliefs that are logically inconsistent.

Anyone who hopes to reach these people will have to offer them clear and logical explanations of the Bible. Explanations that they can then take to the Lord and receive answers to whether they are true.

Just saying, but you do as you wish.

LOL!! If you can read Isah 33:15-17 and not understand who gets to be with God---there is nothing that can be said. There is no personal attacks, just the usual observation about the lack of the LDS to comprehend the bible for they read it through the eyes of JS ---and that makes it impossible to comprehend the truth of what it says. These verses have been posted on other threads and with other Christians it is understood clearly. Of course as the time approaches for Jesus to return things will be getting tougher---that is clearly stated in the NT so thanks for pointing out the obvious.

Now, for those who keep stating that all of God's commandments must be kept in order to be saved, for you to turn around and think that any unrepentant sinner is going to be saved seems extremely inconsistent. We are all sinners, when we fail, Jesus will forgive. And we need constant forgiveness and relying on Christ. You guys also say that the Holy Spirit can not be in more than one place at a time and I post verses that state otherwise and you still claim I am not posting anything within context! It's pretty clear what is going on and it is nothing knew. I've been debating you guys for years and years now and it is always the same. Again. I can only suggest that you read Isah. 33:15-17 and Rev until you you get it. But first throw out the writings of JS for you can not see the Real God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit through His eyes. But you are free to do as you wish.

 

[mmksparbud]

Anyone who hopes to reach these people will have to offer them clear and logical explanations of the Bible. Explanations that they can then take to the Lord and receive answers to whether they are true.

You mean such as God was once a man, and He became God, therefore so can we? Or like We are the product of the Father and one of His wives and existed before being born? Or like that Holy Spirit can only be at one place at a time? Or that if Adam and Eve had not fallen, none of us would be here for it is only through the fall that they were able to conceive? None of which you have any biblical proof for and have all been discussed on here and you guys have tried to defend and can not. Your truth is there are 3 heavens and only those with wives sealed in the temple will be able to be exalted and be with God, plus have their own world to be the God of.
This site is not a place to reach out to Christians. It is to bring the truth of what the LDS actually believe. It is a place to warn those who might be considering being LDS to take a real deep and close up look at what you actually believe, not the Christianized, cleaned up stuff that you tell everyone is what you believe and then after a long time, they get to the "meat" of your truths. We bring the "meat" out now, so they can at least make a decision knowing everything and not be surprised later on. So it doesn't matter to me whether you respond or not. We will keep on reporting what we know. You guys want to downplay these things, we bring them out. It is not personal attacks, it is not anti-Mormon, it is telling the truth of what you actually believe.

 

[Andrewn]

(New Testament | John 10:34 - 35)

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Are we Gods because of the spirit of God that is in us?

Human theopoiesis / divinization is the process by which mortal human beings become immortal, like God. This needs to be understood in the context of our adoption as @mmksparbud so aptly explained. It is very different from your concept of "eternal progression" where people become actual Gods creating their own universes and becoming worthy of worship by their sons and daughters. And all this is only taught in a funeral sermon, not even in your scriptures?

The verse you quoted from John is a fascinating commentary on Psalm 82. Obviously, no one can interpret this Psalm better than the Lord himself. But before we can determine who the "gods" in this Psalm are, we need to read the rest of Joh 10, which is the context for His commentary:

- In v. 24, the Jewish leaders asked Jesus if He is the Messiah.
- In v. 25-29, He affirms that He is the Messiah.
- In v. 30, He says, "I and the Father are one."
- In v. 31-33, they wanted to stone him bec "You make yourself out to be God."
- In v. 34-35, Jesus quoted Psalm 82, which mentions unjust gods, sons of the Most High to whom God spoke declaring their injustice and sentencing them to death. We have 2 choices:

1) The Lord is saying that He is superior to human rulers / judges whom God called gods, or

2) The Lord is saying that He is superior to territorial spirits / angels whom God called gods.

Which one of these supports his claim that He and the Father are one: that He is more than a mere human being?

I think it is the second interpretation. And if these are not people, then human beings are not called "gods" and your argument of "eternal progression" is not taught in that passage.

Just disregard JS' sermon. It's hyperbolic exaggeration to comfort the attendees.

 

[He is the way]

Human theopoiesis / divinization is the process by which mortal human beings become immortal, like God. This needs to be understood in the context of our adoption as @mmksparbud so aptly explained. It is very different from your concept of "eternal progression" where people become actual Gods creating their own universes and becoming worthy of worship by their sons and daughters. And all this is only taught in a funeral sermon, not even in your scriptures?

The verse you quoted from John is a fascinating commentary on Psalm 82. Obviously, no one can interpret this Psalm better than the Lord himself. But before we can determine who the "gods" in this Psalm are, we need to read the rest of Joh 10, which is the context for His commentary:

- In v. 24, the Jewish leaders asked Jesus if He is the Messiah.
- In v. 25-29, He affirms that He is the Messiah.
- In v. 30, He says, "I and the Father are one."
- In v. 31-33, they wanted to stone him bec "You make yourself out to be God."
- In v. 34-35, Jesus quoted Psalm 82, which mentions unjust gods, sons of the Most High to whom God spoke declaring their injustice and sentencing them to death. We have 2 choices:

1) The Lord is saying that He is superior to human rulers / judges whom God called gods, or

2) The Lord is saying that He is superior to territorial spirits / angels whom God called gods.

Which one of these supports his claim that He and the Father are one: that He is more than a mere human being?

I think it is the second interpretation. And if these are not people, then human beings are not called "gods" and your argument of "eternal progression" is not taught in that passage.

Just disregard JS' sermon. It's hyperbolic exaggeration to comfort the attendees.

I do not see anything in verses 34 and 35 about "unjust" gods. I suspect that has to do with a person's personal interpretation of the scripture. As to receiving the calling of God we do have this:

(New Testament | 2 Peter 1:10 - 11)

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

(New Testament | Philippians 3:12 - 15)

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

 

[Ran77]

This site is not a place to reach out to Christians.

Really? That sounds unlikely. Do you have a statement of purpose from the site that you can show this claim? Because, I find it unlikely that the owners of this website wouldn't want people of all faiths to reach out to them in order to grow closer to the Savior. That sounds expressly unChristian.

It is to bring the truth of what the LDS actually believe.

Then wouldn't it be important to actually present what the LDS believe instead of opinion and personal attacks? That's what I addressed my last couple of posts. I'm only interested in the truth. And I have requested that we stick to the facts as much as possible.

It is a place to warn those who might be considering being LDS to take a real deep and close up look at what you actually believe . . .

Exactly. And exactly why I posted the comment that you are responding to. If a person might be considering being LDS, then how do you think they will respond when our detractors can only offer opinions, personal attacks, twisted versions of our beliefs, and interpretations of the scriptures that are not logically sound?

But I'm alright with those things being the meat and potatoes of what our critics offer. It makes it rather easy to see which side has something worth listening to.

. . . not the Christianized, cleaned up stuff that you tell everyone is what you believe . . .

You mean, our actual beliefs. Our understanding of our faith before it has been altered by our critics? This is exactly the kind of comment that I mean. Do you really think that a person in the situation you described above is going to believe that what the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints give as our doctrine is a purposely altered version of our doctrines? Or is it more likely that our critics get it wrong and are the ones offering an altered version of our beliefs?

Especially, if the explanation of our beliefs then leads them to any of our official sources of doctrine and those people see that those of us who participate in this forum are giving those same beliefs.

It is not personal attacks, it is not anti-Mormon, it is telling the truth of what you actually believe.

I have no control over your understanding of a personal attack, but the people we have been discussing will be able to see it for what it is. Just like they will be able to see how claiming to tell everyone the truth of what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints actually believes is a blatantly false statement.

I put the question out there for anyone without a bias against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints: Are you going to get more accurate information about a religion from a well-educated member who tells you what they believe, or from someone with an ax to grind against that religion that tells you what the other person believes?

Gosh, that's a toughie.

 

[Andrewn]

I do not see anything in verses 34 and 35 about "unjust" gods. I suspect that has to do with a person's personal interpretation of the scripture.

Are you serious?

Do you deny that Joh 10:34-35 refer to Psalm 82? Or do you deny that the gods in Psalm 82 are unjust?

The answer to these 2 questions is straightforward and is not a matter of personal interpretation at all. There is no alternative interpretation.

John 10:34 Commentaries: Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS '?

 

[He is the way]

Are you serious?

Do you deny that Joh 10:34-35 refer to Psalm 82? Or do you deny that the gods in Psalm 82 are unjust?

The answer to these 2 questions is straightforward and is not a matter of personal interpretation at all. There is no alternative interpretation.

John 10:34 Commentaries: Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS '?

Not all of Psalms is about the unjust:

(Old Testament | Psalms 82:1 - 8)

1 GOD standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

We know that NOT all of the children of God judge unjustly. Certainly Jesus Christ didn't. Neither did Abraham or Job. That being said, many of God's children do judge unjustly. I believe that is because of the flesh:

(New Testament | Matthew 26:41)

41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

 

[Andrewn]

5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Reading the above quoted verses from Psa 82, one would never guess that any of these gods is just.

We know that NOT all of the children of God judge unjustly. Certainly Jesus Christ didn't. Neither did Abraham or Job. That being said, many of God's children do judge unjustly. I believe that is because of the flesh:

Some human judges are just, at least some of the time. This is another reason why I prefer option 2 in message #86. But many interpreters prefer option 1.

There is actually a 3rd option related to option #1, which is that the human judges are specifically those Israelite leaders who saw and heard God at the time of Moses. It's possible that all of them were unjust. We can call this option 1b, and I think this is the most common Jewish interpretation.

 

[mmksparbud]

Really? That sounds unlikely. Do you have a statement of purpose from the site that you can show this claim? Because, I find it unlikely that the owners of this website wouldn't want people of all faiths to reach out to them in order to grow closer to the Savior. That sounds expressly unChristian.

LDS are not considered Christians on this site. And I should have said the LDS threads. It is not unchristian to expose the truth.

Exactly. And exactly why I posted the comment that you are responding to. If a person might be considering being LDS, then how do you think they will respond when our detractors can only offer opinions, personal attacks, twisted versions of our beliefs, and interpretations of the scriptures that are not logically sound?

But I'm alright with those things being the meat and potatoes of what our critics offer. It makes it rather easy to see which side has something worth listening to.

Everyone is free to choose whatever they want to believe. We are not lying, we have been debating you guys for years and we have posted your believes by what you, yourselves, have printed. You need to go back and examine the posts. When you feel that we are not speaking the truth, someone will always correct us. If we are wrong we say so---we have not been wrong for we have posted directly from your prophets. If your prophets are wrong, the problem is yours not ours. LDS are known for not speaking the complete truth of your believes and you continually call that talking the milk of the gospel and that the meat is reserved for later on. That has been stated over and over on here. But you may not be aware of it as it seems that you guys pick and choose what to believe and unity is not something you actually practice but only spout. We also have many ex-Mormon on here who will speak out the truth also.

I have no control over your understanding of a personal attack, but the people we have been discussing will be able to see it for what it is. Just like they will be able to see how claiming to tell everyone the truth of what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints actually believes is a blatantly false statement.

I put the question out there for anyone without a bias against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints: Are you going to get more accurate information about a religion from a well-educated member who tells you what they believe, or from someone with an ax to grind against that religion that tells you what the other person believes?

Gosh, that's a toughie.

Yes, I see that you do not understand. We post what your own people state in your official church sites. I do not quote from anti-Mormon sites, though I do go to them for it is then easier to find out where certain believes are quoted, and then I go to those published reports. It's the world of the internet. Everything can be found out now. I, personally, try to quote what your prophets say, and then we get the usual responds---"It is not official doctrine." "The prophet was stating their own opinion"
As I said, if you can not trust what your own prophets are quoted as saying, the problem is not ours, but yours. Phoebe Ann if a former LDS and she has all the books and she corrects us also when we have somethi8ng off. We have well educated Ex-LDS. It's no toughie.

 

[He is the way]

Reading the above quoted verses from Psa 82, one would never guess that any of these gods is just.


Some human judges are just, at least some of the time. This is another reason why I prefer option 2 in message #86. But many interpreters prefer option 1.

There is actually a 3rd option related to option #1, which is that the human judges are specifically those Israelite leaders who saw and heard God at the time of Moses. It's possible that all of them were unjust. We can call this option 1b, and I think this is the most common Jewish interpretation.

Psalms 82 verses 1, 6, and 8 are about God and Gods, not judges. Jesus made this clear when He said:

(New Testament | John 10:34 - 36)

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

The word judges can not be used in place of God/Gods in these verses.

 

[Andrewn]

Psalms 82 verses 1, 6, and 8 are about God and Gods, not judges.

Good. You agree with message #86 option 2, then.

 

[He is the way]

Good. You agree with message #86 option 2, then.

Yes most of the Gods in Psalms 82 are not just. Most people (Gods) make bad judgments due to lack of information of other factors like racism.

 

[Ran77]

LDS are not considered Christians on this site. And I should have said the LDS threads. It is not unchristian to expose the truth.

Whether or not attacking the status of members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as Christians is unChristian is debatable. But that wasn't what I indicated. I stated that refusing to reach out to members of all faiths in order to bring them closer to the Savior sounded unChristian to me. Very different from what you stated and also not related to my comment.

I have an idea. My interest is in discussing the Bible and how it supports the claims made by members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And how the arguments offered against us are flawed and inaccurate. That is centered around the verses in the Bible.

Let's play a little game. We will discuss verses from the Bible and every time one of us focuses their comments on the other person, instead of the Bible verses . . . the other person scores a point. To be clear, comments about the verses and doctrines. No comments about the other person. That doesn't include pointing out that "This is a comment that you posted."

I will ignore the rest of this post and you are free to repost anything you want me to address.

Ready -

Set -

Go -

 

[mmksparbud]

Whether or not attacking the status of members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as Christians is unChristian is debatable. But that wasn't what I indicated. I stated that refusing to reach out to members of all faiths in order to bring them closer to the Savior sounded unChristian to me. Very different from what you stated and also not related to my comment.

I have an idea. My interest is in discussing the Bible and how it supports the claims made by members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And how the arguments offered against us are flawed and inaccurate. That is centered around the verses in the Bible.

Let's play a little game. We will discuss verses from the Bible and every time one of us focuses their comments on the other person, instead of the Bible verses . . . the other person scores a point. To be clear, comments about the verses and doctrines. No comments about the other person. That doesn't include pointing out that "This is a comment that you posted."

I will ignore the rest of this post and you are free to repost anything you want me to address.

Ready -

Set -

Go -

Just FYI---the topic of thread is
Who did Joseph Smith see in the "Sacred Grove?"

 

[Ran77]

Just FYI---the topic of thread is
Who did Joseph Smith see in the "Sacred Grove?"

Excellent.

"My interest is in discussing the Bible and how it supports the claims by the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And how the arguments offered against us are flawed and inaccurate. That is centered around the verses in the Bible."

 

[Ran77]

Excellent.

"My interest is in discussing the Bible and how it supports the claims by the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And how the arguments offered against us are flawed and inaccurate. That is centered around the verses in the Bible."

However, the answer is that Joseph saw God the Father and Jesus Christ. (First Vision)

 

[Andrewn]

However, the answer is that Joseph saw God the Father and Jesus Christ. (First Vision)

As a member in the LDS church you have to make this assertion but how would you answer post #50, which shows that your assertion cannot be true?

"My interest is in discussing the Bible and how it supports the claims by the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And how the arguments offered against us are flawed and inaccurate. That is centered around the verses in the Bible."

You have the right to answer Christian's challenges in this forum and to challenge traditional Christian beliefs directly in the Christian Apologetics forum. You've been in the CF a lot longer than I have and I'm sure you knew this already.