Who Controls the Nations of the Earth?

[shturt678s]

Jack, I think if you are going to place it back that far, and you should, it must first refer to the events of the day. The great Rebellion. The claim by those in the Rebellion to be messianic, which in Judaism is a claim to be God.

If we back up to 1:5, the pastoral purpose of the letter--along with all the eschatological events mentioned--is the urging of these people to stay faithful because God will vanquish the enemies. This vanquishing is soon, and is to be seen by them. At least we must say that is how it was explained in this letter.

Whether it can repeat later in history is another question, but it doesn't occur as a topic here.

Most of what is mentioned here happens shortly, even the vanquishing of some enemies, but not all.

Thank you again my friend. The history here that is directly applicable is Paul received direct revelation, ie, IIThess.2:3-12, cf, Gal.1:12, made to him regarding the Great Apostasy & the Revelation of the man of Lawlessness (Antichrist).

IIThess.2:4, this man does not just "come" as does apostasy while he at first remains hidden, he at last gets "to be revealed" my true friend. It's revealed to those today that have a truer interpretations of IIThess.2:4, 10b-12 & Rev.8:7 - 9:21.

My end point, all occurring since 70 A.D. where we are at the acme at the end of the so called "temple" ("Sanctuary") being built in the hearts of men, ie, not some physical Temple.

Old Jack's opinion

 

[iamlamad]

The trumpet prophecies are not future. They have to do with the great tribulation of WW II. For example , 200 million horses under the hood were unleashed on D-Day against Hitler the antichrist and the third of the earth aligned with him. The horses were prepared ( or manufactured by Great Britain, Ausralia, Canada and the US, represented by the 4 angels.
The fact that the 7 last plagues are now being poured out is proof that the previous chapters have already been fulfilled.

MYTH

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Thank you again my friend. The history here that is directly applicable is Paul received direct revelation, ie, IIThess.2:3-12, cf, Gal.1:12, made to him regarding the Great Apostasy & the Revelation of the man of Lawlessness (Antichrist).

IIThess.2:4, this man does not just "come" as does apostasy while he at first remains hidden, he at last gets "to be revealed" my true friend. It's revealed to those today that have a truer interpretations of IIThess.2:4, 10b-12 & Rev.8:7 - 9:21.

My end point, all occurring since 70 A.D. where we are at the acme at the end of the so called "temple" ("Sanctuary") being built in the hearts of men, ie, not some physical Temple.

Old Jack's opinion

Jack, most of what you write is MYTH also.

LAMAD

 

[Interplanner]

Jack,
but do you anchor your understanding first in the historic level?

 

[shturt678s]

Jack,
but do you anchor your understanding first in the historic level?

In the Contextual level if that counts

Sorry my friend, couldn't resist

Old Jack

btw look up and see if you see hail and fire mixed with blood this historical moment (Rev.8:7)

I owe you one, ie, made my evening

Will be more gentle with you from now on as you have a good spirit, and a friend of mine for sure.

 

[interpreter]

MYTH

LAMAD

What is a myth? Are we not now experiencing the plagues of skin cancer, red tides, and global warming?

 

[shturt678s]

Jack, most of what you write is MYTH also.

LAMAD

If we're going "MYTH," let's go all the way, ie, IIThess.2:11, 12 (Rev. chapter 9 expounds in detail with the valid interpretation) which absolutely controls earth dwellers that have met the Truth thus controlling them then the "effect" absolutely controls the Secret Societies that do control the 73 providences which they control economically thus absolute control way behind the scenes.

We can be so thankful the Living God is in absolute control absolutely also way way beind the scenes, ie, Rev. chapter 9 in today's time - Rev.8:7-13 before.

Rock'n'roll myth Jack

 

[iamlamad]

What is a myth? Are we not now experiencing the plagues of skin cancer, red tides, and global warming?

We are experiencing a LOT of things - but NONE of them are the Trumpet judgments or vial judgments. Saying they are is MYTH.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

If we're going "MYTH," let's go all the way, ie, IIThess.2:11, 12 (Rev. chapter 9 expounds in detail with the valid interpretation) which absolutely controls earth dwellers that have met the Truth thus controlling them then the "effect" absolutely controls the Secret Societies that do control the 73 providences which they control economically thus absolute control way behind the scenes.

We can be so thankful the Living God is in absolute control absolutely also way way beind the scenes, ie, Rev. chapter 9 in today's time - Rev.8:7-13 before.

Rock'n'roll myth Jack

I'm game, let's go.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Note that "shall send" is FUTURE TENSE. Jack, you cannot pull these verses OUT OF CONTEXT.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

This is speaking of the time AFTER the man of sin is revealed as the BEAST of REv. 13. When he says "I AM GOD" those in the know (names written in heaven) will recognize WHO he is. But then will begin "those days" of "great tribulation" Jesus spoke of.

All this is FUTURE. If you think otherwise, you are living in a dream world. NONE Of the 70th week has begin. Before the week can begin (7th seal) the RAPTURE must take place. It has NOT for I am still here!

NONE Of Rev. chapter 9 has happened yet. WAKE UP Jack, and enter the real world! Did you understand WHY 2 Thes. 2 was written? Way back then there were people that said the Day of the Lord had already come. Paul's argument is this: when you SEE the man of sin say "I AM GOD" then you can KNOW the Day has started and you are in it. But until then, you are NOT IN the Day of the Lord. And before the man of sin will be released to say that, the RAPTURE must take place so the Holy Spirit - the one restraining - will be taken out of the world. THEN the man of sin will be free to do his thing.

UNTIL the rapture, we are in the church age - NOT the 70th week, and NOT the Day of the Lord. So in Rev. we are now waiting on the 6th seal. Jack, that is in chapter 6. NOTHING after that has happened yet.

LAMAD

 

[Interplanner]

Lamad,
good to have you ask why it was written. As you can see, there were credible rumors that it had happened. Now, think about that. OK, the rumors turned out to be just that, but they got quite a ways, don't you agree? What I'm saying is that generally the early church believed the final day really was quite close. (Thess being the first letters of Paul in the early 40s). They had reasons to do so. They got this from Mt 24 & //s. They got it from other things Paul said. He used the expression 'marana Tha' with earnestness and realism.

I'm asking you to deduce from this that it is far more likely to find the letter speaking to relatively soon events rather than distant events.

So when you have pretend messiahs over in Judea, and in the temple, and abusing the temple, and when we know what happens to those in Judaism who claim to be Messiah (for ex., Christ), we know that we have a person, roughly-speaking, claiming to be god, and yet who is extremely vile, a leader of a 'rebellion that desolates' the city and country.

Much more of this kind of meaning should be explored before trying to find things in the present.

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 369:

Way back then there were people that said the Day of the Lord had already come. Paul's argument is this: when you SEE the man of sin say "I AM GOD" then you can KNOW the Day has started and you are in it.

Note that nothing Paul says requires that the day of the Lord will start when the man of sin is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to when an individual man will be revealed (i.e. without any remaining doubt) as being the Antichrist, by his sitting (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15). This is one of the things that has to happen before the future day of Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

iamlamad said in post 369:

But until then, you are NOT IN the Day of the Lord.

The day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

iamlamad said in post 369:

And before the man of sin will be released to say that, the RAPTURE must take place so the Holy Spirit - the one restraining - will be taken out of the world. THEN the man of sin will be free to do his thing.

The restrainer of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) could be a powerful, good angel, like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). The restrainer can't be the Holy Spirit, because in the future the restrainer will be removed (2 Thessalonians 2:7b), whereas the Holy Spirit can never be removed because he is always omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-10). Similarly, the restrainer can't be the church, or the Holy Spirit in the church, because the church won't be removed (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), and there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and now no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9); and the Antichrist will be allowed to physically overcome believers in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), just as the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome believers in the first century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10).

iamlamad said in post 369:

UNTIL the rapture, we are in the church age - NOT the 70th week, and NOT the Day of the Lord.

Note that there is no such thing as the church age, for the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). For just as the church will continue in the world throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), so the church will then continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

iamlamad said in post 369:

UNTIL the rapture, we are in the church age - NOT the 70th week, and NOT the Day of the Lord.

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible makes clear that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and all the armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

iamlamad said in post 369:

So in Rev. we are now waiting on the 6th seal.

We are also waiting for the 2nd through 4th seals (Revelation 6:4-8), which will be a horrible war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

One way this war could happen is the U.S. could build up the Iraqi Army until it is huge enough and well-equipped enough to serve as a proxy army, for the U.S. and Israel, for an all-out ground invasion of Iran, in order to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime. As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall some of the former Baathist military hierarchy to run the Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly. And if the current Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, this could lead the CIA, the Mossad, and possibly also (Sunni Arab) Saudi Intelligence, to bring about a Baathist coup d'etat in Iraq. For all 3 of these intelligence agencies would love for Iraq to attack their common mortal foe Iran, and the Iraqi Baathists could agree to do this, for they see non-Arab Iran as a great enemy of Arab autonomy.

To help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of an all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran, false-flag operations could be managed by the CIA and the Mossad by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and their little children terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi Arab masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians". And the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (who by that time could be led by a great miracle-working false Messiah: cf. Matthew 24:24) could destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to prepare the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending that they are doing so in the name of Islam) turn and send their vast army against the little territory of Israel, completely defeating and occupying it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this wouldn't be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat and occupy Egypt (Daniel 11:15). For Egypt is ruled by the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army, which the Baathists could see as being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being a colony of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from 3 directions at the same time, with tens of thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and tens of thousands of Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its little sliver of land completely overrun, and sees that its total defeat and occupation is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that 1/4 of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the religious fundamentalism of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, i.e. the (correct) idea that the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4) and that all other religions are cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).

 

[iamlamad]

Note that nothing Paul says requires that the day of the Lord will start when the man of sin is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to when an individual man will be revealed (i.e. without any remaining doubt) as being the Antichrist, by his sitting (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15). This is one of the things that has to happen before the future day of Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
...

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that 1/4 of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the religious fundamentalism of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, i.e. the (correct) idea that the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4) and that all other religions are cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).

As usual, Bible2 IGNORES the plain reading of scripture, and converts the meaning to fit HIS pet theories.

Paul was VERY CLEAR:

2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

Note: if it "has already come," then they are IN IT.

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until...the man of lawlessness is revealed...

WHAT DAY? OF course the last "day" mentioned, the DAY OF THE LORD.

HOW will he be revealed? "He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

When He proclaims himself to be god, HE HAS BEEN REVEALED, and according to Paul, one can KNOW the Day of the Lord has already started and they are IN IT. That is the very meaning of the word "UNTIL."

What was the original problem? They thought they were IN THE DAY of the LORD. Paul then shows them HOW TO KNOW FOR SURE when they are IN the Day of the Lord. When they see the man of sin say "I AM GOD" then they will know they are IN the Day of the Lord.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?

What did Paul teach them in the first letter? He taught that the rapture would be the TRIGGER for the start of the DAY.

According to Paul, the rapture and the Day CANNOT BE SEPARATED. A gun will not go off until the trigger is pulled, but the very instant the trigger is pulled, there are SIGNS the gun has gone off: there is a loud noise! There is recoil! And there is a bullet flying. These are SIGNS the trigger has been pulled and the gun has fired. In the same way, when the rapture takes place, and the great earthquake (Paul's Sudden Destruction) is created by the dead in Christ rising, it is the FIRST SIGN of the Day of the Lord. (Note Isa. 2 and the 6th seal are almost word for word in places). Immediately after the rapture the sun turns dark, and the moon into blood: again almost word for word from Joel 2, PROVING the Day of the Lord is imminent. By the time the man of sin abominates, in Chapter 11, everyone who sees and hears will KNOW the Day of the Lord has started.

But those that know the scriptures will know when the first trumpet judgment comes.

LAMAD

 

[Interplanner]

Lamad,
slow down. The day was "alleged" to have happened. Rumored. See my previous post. Don't spend any time on B2.

 

[shturt678s]

I'm game, let's go.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Note that "shall send" is FUTURE TENSE. Jack, you cannot pull these verses OUT OF CONTEXT.

Let's see how much in the 'future'? IIThess.2:11, "..God's sends them error's working.." pempei, "sends" simple 1st Semester Greek = PAI3S if I recall where it's "present" tense as also used in v.9. The ol' A.V. and many Bibles miss this, and render "shall send." Even my inferior Interlinears render "sends" omitting the "shall."

Simply states a statement of fact without regard to time. This sending (from 70 A.D. in light of Rev.11:2; Lk.21:24) of errors' working (delustions) is not a mere permission, an allowing error to work in the Antichrist's apostasy; on the other hand, it is not a production of error by God. The working of Satan (v.9 - the historical Satan as he is personally in hell till Rev.20:7 - the antichristian propaganda) produces ever new errors.

When these error's are, however, produced by the antichristian propaganda they do not work merely when Satan pleases, ie, working through his agencies, It is God who rules of course. God sends them where he wills, for example, if you have the Truth, and I view as fallacious to insane now, then God immediately from heaven casts "delusions" down (Rev.8:7, etc.) so that the Truth does appear as myth thus will have forever to think about it in the lake of fire in torments. A forever owey! :o

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

This is speaking of the time AFTER the man of sin is revealed as the BEAST of REv. 13. When he says "I AM GOD" those in the know (names written in heaven) will recognize WHO he is. But then will begin "those days" of "great tribulation" Jesus spoke of.

All this is FUTURE. If you think otherwise, you are living in a dream world. NONE Of the 70th week has begin. Before the week can begin (7th seal) the RAPTURE must take place. It has NOT for I am still here!

NONE Of Rev. chapter 9 has happened yet. WAKE UP Jack, and enter the real world! Did you understand WHY 2 Thes. 2 was written? Way back then there were people that said the Day of the Lord had already come. Paul's argument is this: when you SEE the man of sin say "I AM GOD" then you can KNOW the Day has started and you are in it. But until then, you are NOT IN the Day of the Lord. And before the man of sin will be released to say that, the RAPTURE must take place so the Holy Spirit - the one restraining - will be taken out of the world. THEN the man of sin will be free to do his thing.

UNTIL the rapture, we are in the church age - NOT the 70th week, and NOT the Day of the Lord. So in Rev. we are now waiting on the 6th seal. Jack, that is in chapter 6. NOTHING after that has happened yet.

LAMAD

Have to run to town this morning hence will let the rest go, ie, have to get ready.

Old Jack

 

[interpreter]

We are experiencing a LOT of things - but NONE of them are the Trumpet judgments or vial judgments. Saying they are is MYTH.

LAMAD

Your futurist view is the myth. The Revelation began unfolding with speed, in 312 AD when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow. We are now in chapter 16. How can you deny the plagues of skin cancer, red tides, and global warming?

 

[iamlamad]

Let's see how much in the 'future'? IIThess.2:11, "..God's sends them error's working.." pempei, "sends" simple 1st Semester Greek = PAI3S if I recall where it's "present" tense as also used in v.9. The ol' A.V. and many Bibles miss this, and render "shall send." Even my inferior Interlinears render "sends" omitting the "shall."

Simply states a statement of fact without regard to time. This sending (from 70 A.D. in light of Rev.11:2; Lk.21:24) of errors' working (delustions) is not a mere permission, an allowing error to work in the Antichrist's apostasy; on the other hand, it is not a production of error by God. The working of Satan (v.9 - the historical Satan as he is personally in hell till Rev.20:7 - the antichristian propaganda) produces ever new errors.

When these error's are, however, produced by the antichristian propaganda they do not work merely when Satan pleases, ie, working through his agencies, It is God who rules of course. God sends them where he wills, for example, if you have the Truth, and I view as fallacious to insane now, then God immediately from heaven casts "delusions" down (Rev.8:7, etc.) so that the Truth does appear as myth thus will have forever to think about it in the lake of fire in torments. A forever owey! :o



Have to run to town this morning hence will let the rest go, ie, have to get ready.

Old Jack

From Blueletter bible:

"Shall send"

[FONT=arial, helvetica]

πέμπω​

pempō[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica]Tense: Future
Voice: Active
Mood: Indicative[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica]
[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica]Perhaps we have a difference in the Greek Texts. No time to check no that now.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica]Lamad
[/FONT]​

 

[shturt678s]

From Blueletter bible:

"Shall send"

[FONT=arial, helvetica]

πέμπω​

pempō[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica]Tense: Future
Voice: Active
Mood: Indicative[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica]
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[FONT=arial, helvetica]Perhaps we have a difference in the Greek Texts. No time to check no that now.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica]Lamad
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So do you want me to trade in my white minister's collar for a blue one? I shall do it four you

Appreciate you and your words,

Old Jack

 

[Interplanner]

As far as who controls the overall situation, 2 Th 2:11 does remind of Rom 1, where the 'judgement' is a step toward degeneration--and that level of degeneration is curse enough, it seems.

Once again, bear in mind all this should first be taken in the sense of the enormous evil in Judea in the mid 1st-century, or at least that it was expected to be that soon, and seen in some of those events. I think there is a man of sin who claims to be God in the usual sense of Judaism (= claim to be messiah, which is consistent with Mt24A) but I don't see the destruction by the 'overthrow and the breath of the mouth of the Lord Jesus Christ'. There is a reason why Paul may have put it this way: Dan 8:26. The leader of the 'rebellion that desolates' is destroyed but not by human force. I'm not particularly bothered by that; God used the Roman forces beyond their own understanding of the situation. However, my Metzger Greek text finds the 'overthrow' and the 'breath ('pneumati') of the Lord' to be quotes of Job 4 and Is 11.