Who cares about the age of the earth, or space?

[yeshuasavedme]

Because the world appears to be billions not thousands of eyars old and books inspired by God are not clear at all.

Then you obviously have not read them, for they are very clear to those who study to show themselves approved unto God, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. =comparing Scripture with Scripture, for context.

So you believe there are many creations?

I believe the Word, which tells us this present creation is to end and the New creation will be unending.
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[solarwave]

Then you obviously have not read them, for they are very clear to those who study to show themselves approved unto God, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. =comparing Scripture with Scripture, for context.

Well the only books I consider inspired by God are the ones in the NIV Bible (just using NIV as an example) and those books are not clear if you beyond the simple words on the page.

I believe the Word, which tells us this present creation is to end and the New creation will be unending.
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

I agree that there will be a new creation, but that there will only be this creation and the new one because in the new one we will see God face to face and so there will be no need for any more after that.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Well the only books I consider inspired by God are the ones in the NIV Bible (just using NIV as an example) and those books are not clear if you beyond the simple words on the page.

You are calling the NIV translators inspired??? I think you need to rethink that.

 

[solarwave]

You are calling the NIV translators inspired??? I think you need to rethink that.

No, I just used the NIV as an example of the type of Bible I use. So I just ment that books outside that type of that Bible (eg: Enoch) I don't consider inspired, but you never know I might do one day.

 

[miamited]

Good morning Solarwave,

You responded:
It sounds like you are saying that I am not born again.... but I'll assume that isn't what you ment. I do believe in being born again and in the gifts of the Spirit, such as tongues, prophecy and healing.

I was certainly inferring that and I hope that you won't be offended. We are always commended to check ourselves. To be offended when one knows the truth is an emotion of pride. However, before we go further, what was it that Jesus said would be the 'gift' of those who are born again? I'm not referring here to the gifts of the Spirit, but rather Jesus told Nicodemus that there was one specific gift that those who are born again would have.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

No, I just used the NIV as an example of the type of Bible I use. So I just ment that books outside that type of that Bible (eg: Enoch) I don't consider inspired, but you never know I might do one day.

You'll never learn doctrine from those who never knew it. Reading an English Bible is not the way you will ever get understanding of the original intent on so many of the issues of the Word. One can be born again, but babies need to grow up and get off milk, to be useful soldiers in the kingdom of God.

IN 1 Cor 2, Paul speaks of how he came to those needing to be founded in Christ, in the power of God and not in the wisdom of men, preaching nothing but Jesus Christ and Him crucified, so that their faith did not stand in the reasoning of men but in the power of God, and then Paul says, in verses 6,7
Howbeit we speak wisdom among [them that are] perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought (5746):
But [we] speak wisdom God in mystery, hidden which God ordained (5 before world unto our glory:

God in mystery hidden, ordained by God before the world for our glory, is only in the Book of Enoch, and His name was hidden, a secret, to be revealed to the elect [who choose to live the elect life, Enoch said], and that name was the name of the Son of Man in heaven whom only Enoch saw, hidden there, with God and in God, who was to come - and is come, to do what Enoch said He would do and is to do what Enoch said He would do.
So Enoch is verified once again, by Paul [who uses what Enoch wrote in all his teaching, about Christ].

Enoch tells us how God's heavenly bodies work, and all OT and NT corroborate what Enoch wrote about the sun, moon, and stars.

 

[solarwave]

I was certainly inferring that and I hope that you won't be offended. We are always commended to check ourselves. To be offended when one knows the truth is an emotion of pride. However, before we go further, what was it that Jesus said would be the 'gift' of those who are born again? I'm not referring here to the gifts of the Spirit, but rather Jesus told Nicodemus that there was one specific gift that those who are born again would have.

No I don't mind, but why did you ask? Because I believe differently from you?

On the bit about Jesus told Nicodemus I don't know the answer. What is that gift?

You'll never learn doctrine from those who never knew it. Reading an English Bible is not the way you will ever get understanding of the original intent on so many of the issues of the Word. One can be born again, but babies need to grow up and get off milk, to be useful soldiers in the kingdom of God.

What would you suggest people read it in then?

Not all people are capable to learning greeks or hebrew simply to read the Bible.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

No I don't mind, but why did you ask? Because I believe differently from you?

On the bit about Jesus told Nicodemus I don't know the answer. What is that gift?



What would you suggest people read it in then?

Not all people are capable to learning greeks or hebrew simply to read the Bible.

Anyone can read a Bible, but Bible study must take one back to the original words, and context usage; and those are not hidden away in some dark corner.

 

[miamited]

Good morning Solarwave.

Well, what did Jesus tell Nicodemus?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted.

 

[solarwave]

That no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again, born or water and spirit.

"The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." - Whatever that means.

Whoever lives by truth comes into the light.

So whats you point? What is the answer you are looking for? Please don't ask me to try to answer again because I' am not sure what you are looking for.

 

[miamited]

Hello Solarwave,

Good morning to you and what a beautiful morning it is. God is in the house!!!!!

You know, for years, I read that verse and the one following that confirmed for us again, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." After Jesus speaks to Nicodemus and explains that no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again, Nicodemus asks a question. "How can a man be born when he is old?" Then Jesus replies, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."

I always thought that Jesus was just confirming what he had first said to Nicodemus. But I was wrong. Jesus was making two different claims about being born again and by understanding this new wisdom, I was also able to understand what he told Nicodemus about the Spirit being like the wind. God is so good!!!!!

Here's the gift: Once we are born again, immediately, now, in real time today, we are able to 'see' the kingdom of God. The second claim, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God..." is referring to a future event when we will live in God's kingdom. The Scriptures are clear that today, this world is the kingdom of the evil one. This explains why so many who claim to be 'christian' aren't able to understand a lot of the Scripture. Now, please don't misunderstand me, that this understanding doesn't come immediately as if a flash of lightening, but being born again is what gives those who then can 'see' the kingdom of God the ability to say without any reservation what so ever, that God's word is true. In all that it reveals about God and His working within His creation for His glory, every word accounted in the Scriptures is true. We reasonably immediately do begin to understand within this framework that while God's word is absolutely, and fully true, we don't yet understand all of it, but as we continue to study and prayerfully and diligently seek God's wisdom, with the full knowledge that God's word is the truth, the Spirit, which Jesus is talking about here opens our eyes to understand. On the other hand, if we continue to search God's word without the guidance and help of the Spirit, then we will never understand. This, 'seeing' the kingdom also explains why there are young earth creationists. Those who are born again can 'see' the plan. They can 'see' the effects of sin upon God's creation. They can literally 'see' how God one day some 6,000 years ago just - WHOOOSH! - created all that we see as the physical creation in which we live.

Now, I know that there will be argument about this. But hopefully, you can see that even argument gives credence to the fact that there is no understanding. God either did or didn't create all of this physical realm approximately 6,000 years ago. If He didn't, then everything that we read, starting from the creation of the first man, is a lie. We can surely argue for days on end about the first five days of the creation, but once we get to the creation of a man named Adam and follow out the geneologies of his descendents, then we run smack dab into a lie. Consider that if Adam were not a real, physical individual human man, then he did not have a son named Seth. He did not live 930 years and then die. How does a metaphor die? Adam's son Seth did not have a son by the name of Enosh and Seth did not live 912 years. It is only logical that if we believe Adam to be a 'representative' understanding of the creation of mankind, rather than a real live human man who actually lived upon the earth and who's name was Adam, then who is Seth. Is he likewise some 'representative' understanding of the second generation? Then, who is Enosh? And who is Kenan? And who is Mahalalel? And who is Jared, etc. For everyone of these descendants of Adam we are told that they had a son and other children and given a specific number of years that they lived. Now, any thinking man can see, that by this time, certainly, the creation had days and years just as we have today. How do we reconcile the 'years' of all the generations with the 'theory' that mankind is 'scientifically' proven to be 50,000, 200,000, 500,000 or even a few million years old? I have read a number of supposedly 'scientific' articles that entertain all of those 'guesses'.

So, you see, my friend, forget the first five days of the creation. Don't even give it a moments thought. Start with Adam and you'll find that either, the Scriptures are a bald face lie or 'science' is. Remember also that the New Testament reinforces the 'fact' that mankind is only 6,000 years old. In both Matthew and Luke we are given the geneologies leading to Jesus. Luke goes all the way back to Adam. Matthew only goes back as far as Abraham, but the geneologies of Genesis bring us up to Abraham. So, it would appear clear to me, that 2,000 years ago when these accounts were written that God would have us believe that Adam and all of his descendants were real, live people.

So, this is what the 'gift' of 'seeing' the kingdom of God gets us. We can actually work out within the framework of the 'truth' of the Scriptures all the plan of God. This is what those who are 'born again' come to understand. It didn't take millions or billions of years for all of the heavenly bodies and the universe and the earth to be formed. The God of the Scriptures is such an awesome, powerful, all knowing, wise God that He merely spoke what He desired to create and - Whoooosh! - it was so! He merely spoke all that He desired to create upon the earth and - whooosh! - it was so!

And it was all created because God is love and God desires a relationship with those whom He created. It's all about God's love. Sin entered into His creation and, sin is nothing more than disobedience to God. In both the heavenly realm of the angels and the physical realm in which we live those who sin are those who are disobedient. They refuse to live under God's righteous law and any blind man can see, that unless we are willing to live under God's righteous law, there can be no eternal peace. Consider, if anyone lies, someone gets hurt. If anyone steals, someone gets hurt. If anyone murders, hates, covets, someone gets hurt. How can there be eternal peace if some are always getting hurt? So, the final culmination of God's plan is that He will destroy all of those who refuse Him in both the heavenly realm and our physical realm and grant eternal life to all those in both the heavenly realm and the physical realm in a new heaven, the angelic realm, and a new earth, the physical realm and there will be eternal peace and satisfaction because we will then be all that God has created who love and respect Him for who He is and understand that only by His law can there be peace and love for eternity.

So, what does it mean: The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

The kingdom of God is just like the wind. It blows all around us, but unless one is born of the Spirit, you cannot see it or tell where it is or where it is going. Unless you are born of the Spirit you do not have the 'spiritual' eyes that can 'see' the kingdom of God. Unless you are born of God's Spirit, you have no understanding of the things of God.

You can, of course, receive the birth of the Spirit within your own spirit. All you need do is repent. Turn to God in prayer, mournful prayer, and admit your unfaithfulness. Admit to Him that you have not believed His word and that you have allowed the wisdom of men to thrwart the truth of His word. Ask Him to give you His Spirit for understanding and ask Him to give you an unquenchable thirst to know and understand Him, through His word. This is what God desires of us. That we come to Him with a fully contrite and accepting heart. Our pride and our great wisdom keep us from the humility of spirit that God must have from us. Believe that there is no truth that stands against the word of God. It is a supernatural revelation not conceived from the minds of men, but rather conceived and revealed by and through God's Holy Spirt to those whom God chose to deliver it to us. It is all truth and it stands opposed to all the wisdom of men, for as it is written:

'The fear of the LORD--that is wisdom, and to shun evil is understanding.'

and again:

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.

and again:

When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.

Friend, humble yourself to God. Trust Him that He will not lead you astray. He will give you greater wisdom than any man can afford you, if you will but humble yourself to Him and trust Him. Believe! That what He has written to you is the truth, despite what 'scientific' men may tell you. That! is real trust in God. Job had his men of wisdom to give him advice and counsel and Job chose to trust God.

I know that this is long, but I hope that you will take to heart what I have written to you. Pray over it. Ask God and He will give you the wisdom that comes from loving Him. He delights in the one who seeks His knowledge and wisdom. He loves you and wants you to know the truth.

God bless you my friend.
In Christ, Ted.

 

[solarwave]

Hi miamited,

I hope you know what I say on here I try to say with good intentions.

I have to disagree that YEC are closer to the truth than anyon else or that they 'see' better. Do you believe it is possible to be unborn again? Because I used to believe the 6 days of creation and Adam, etc, and I would be easier in a way if I still did, but I find myself unable to when faced with what I know about science, etc.

I don't believe Adam was a real person like said in the Bible and that the genealogies are wrong (I wouldn't use the word lie, because a lie is an intentional twisting of the truth) as I think I am correct in thinking that some genealogies in the Bible differ anyway.

My opinion is that a more historical account starts with Abraham.

If you can't tell yet I don't believe the Bible is inerrant or infallible, but it is inspired by God and has truth in it. I have not always believed this, and I used to argue for the Bible being perfect in history, science and definitely in issues of religion and ethics. But I found no reason to believe this and that the only reason I believed it previously was because I was brought up to believe it.

What makes you born again, yet another christian also full of love who follows truth yet believes quite different things is not?

In creation I really do see how God could have made the earth instantly, but the more I learn the more I cannot hold onto that view. God must have made the earth a different way, but expressed important spiritual truths through Genesis.

I am not trying to convince you that the Bible taken literal or at face value is fallible, just to give you my view and that it is reasonable.

"How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, "This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed"? Instead they say, "No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way." - Carl Sagan

 

[miamited]

Hello Solarwave,

Thanks for your well thought reply. I know that I sound like I am being hard regarding this issue, and most people, just as the post here expresses, ask, "Who cares? Why is it so important to anybody whether or not we figure out the truth about the creation.?" I'm really curious why you went from believing the literal understanding of the Scriptures to the 'scientific' point of view. Maybe you'll give me some further insight regarding that. Have you really checked out all the 'science' and 'proof' thereof that the scientific community bases their theories on? I've done tons of research into it.

Do you know that there is a 'theory' that explains that the pressure inside the earth is building at a fairly steady rate and that if the earth were as old as most scientists would have us believe, the earth would have long ago exploded into a gazillion pieces and been flung out into space.

Do you know that there are questions regarding carbon dating that show that it, for some wildly unknown reason, becomes very unreliable beyond 5,000 years?

Sir Fred Hoyle, one of the world's leading astronomers and mathematicians, has stood before the British Academy of Science and explained that the probability of life arising by chance is the same probability as throwing a six on a die five million consecutive times. I'm sure you've probably heard that many scientists believe that the probability of life arising to greater and greater complexity and organization by chance through evolution is the same probability of a tornado passing through a junkyard and spitting out a fully equipped Boeing 747 jetliner.

Of course, another major problem with the evolutionary theory is the second law of thermodynamics. The second law of thermodynamics says that everything in the entire universe is winding down. Therefore the 'theory' of evolution, that lesser creatures became more advanced creatures stands in opposition to that law.

I write these things because I sense that you feel that you must turn your back on 'science' to believe in the creation as God has expressed it to us. There are scientists who are young earth creationists and have worked just as diligently as the others to show that what is being passed off as 'scientific' wisdom, ain't necessarily so.

My real purpose in responding to you, though, is a bit more studied than any of that. Let's talk about God for a moment. What the Scriptures reveal about Him.

God shares many of our human emotions. The Scriptures account that God is angered; that He feels jealousy; that He delights and feels joy. Specifically, God reveals in the law, "You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord you God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth gneration of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commendments."

God is a jealous God! He is angered when we turn away from the truth that He has revealed to us and turn toward untruths and lies of the created, man. You posted a quote from Carl Sagan. You know that Carl Sagan did not believe in God. How then is it even remotely possible that he would know some 'truth' about God? Your life, my friend, is a contradiction if you say that you believe in the God of the Scirptures, but then repeat the 'wisdom' of some godless person as support for some of your belief. Surely, you can see the logic in that. How is it even possible that someone who denies the very existence of the God that you claim to believe in know some 'truth' about that God?

If I know absolutely nothing about engineering, are you going to trust me to draw up a set of plans for a bridge? Are you going to trust me to design a skyscraper? Similarly, if someone denies the very existence of God, it is obvious, then, that they would have no knowledge of someone that they deny exists, right? How do you have knowledge of something that you know doesn't exist? So, all I'm encouraging is that you stop and think, put your thinking cap on and stop and sit down and spend an hour or so just contemplating how the ramifications of what you believe ultimately work out. Like I say, I used to think just like you are thinking now. I used to read the occult books and really felt that all 'religions' were OK and they should all exist together and why can't we all just get along, but then I began to seriously, prayerfully contemplate the outcome of what I believed. To follow out all the various pathways that a particular understanding leads to.

You see, just as your response to my previous post, you have to somehow, without any real explanation, figure that all the geneologies regarding Adam to Abraham are fanciful, but then from Abraham to now, you have no problem with the literal geneologies as expressed in God's word. I, on the other hand, declare to you, no, no listen, understand, that's why God put the geneologies in there!!! They aren't just some fanciful, representative account of some period of the creation. They are, in fact, there for confirmation of the age of mankind. All these geneologies list real people with real names and real ages that they lived and it is for the very purpose that we understand the age of the earth that God even took the time to have them recorded for us. God is wiser than you or I will ever hope to be and He has provided the answers to all the questions regarding these things if we will but look and 'see' with a born again Spirit. The Spirit will not confirm a lie, so what are we to say, that He confirms for you that the earth is billions of years old and yet confirms for me that it is only 6,000? One of us, my freind, is believing a lie. Now, mine is based on the clear, simple instructions of God's word. Yours is based on the co-mingling of God's word with 'scientific' wisdom.
Again, I encourage you, friend, to really look into this. Study both sides of the arguments. Find all that is available regarding support for 'scientific' wisdom of a young earth and hold it against the 'scientific' wisdom of an old earth. I think you will find in both that there is a lot of 'theoretical' assumptions and guesses because true science, must be observable and repeatable. We can with a great degree of accuracy determine scientifically that water flows from high pressure to low. We can set up an experiment that shows such a phenomenon and we can set up that experiment over and over and over again and each time we will come up with the same answer. But, things such as the creation cannot be 'scientifically' derived with any known degree of accuracy because we can't reproduce the experiment.

Sure, we can say that light travels at 186,000 miles per second and we can repeat that experiment over and over again to verify that, yes, light travels at 186,000 miles per second, but we cannot then, with any assured accuracy claim that it has always been this way. Lastly, we cannot, in science, allow for miracles. There is absolutely no scientific method that allows for miracles. Science and those who practice it, begin with the given that everything has a purely natural, logical explanation. How do you believe scientists explain the virgin birth? How do scientists today explain to you, a christian, that a young Jewish woman, without ever having any male sperm introduced into her womb, bore a male child? Go ahead, search it out. Find the scientific explanation that explains that phenomenon.

God bless you my friend.
In Christ, Ted.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Hello Solarwave,
Ted is giving you good admonitions.

Now as to the geneologies, they are listed in the real book of Jasher, too. There are times that a generation is skipped for simple reasons that one who studies can learn. For instance, Moses was the fourth generation from [edit] Jacob, but seemingly the fifth, when looking at his father, but his mother was the daughter of Levi, so he is the fourth from Jacob
The same goes for some others who were descended one generation on one side, but perhaps two or more on the other, due to the long ages people lived. God counted Moses as the fourth generation from Jacob, through his mother.

Also, as to the Word of God being true, there are things in the "Bible" =collection of books, that are men speaking, not inspired, but they are recorded faithfully by those who heard them. In those instances it is not "thus saith YHWH", but "thus said so and so". If the Word does not agree with their statements, then that is clear to those who study the Word to see what is "Thus saith YHWH", that the speaker was speaking from their own belief or wisdom. But you cannot apply that to the Torah, for it is "Thus saith YHWH".
Also, most of Enoch is "Thus saith the LORD of Glory" -even through His ministering angels who showed Enoch things that were total truth about the creation. There is a fragment in Enoch of the book of Noah, and in that book, Noah laments "writing" as a labor heavy upon him not meant to be. Solomon also lamented the same, so the two gave their opinions, not God's.
When God said to the prophets to write, they wrote His truth, and when Moses wrote Genesis, he wrote the Word of the LORD, and not a fairy tale with no meaning.


Here it is: Jacob went into Egypt, and in the fourth generation from Jacob, Moses led Israel out.

Gen 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites [is] not yet full.

Jacob
Levi
Exd 2:1
And there went a man of the house of Levi, and took [to wife] a daughter of Levi. Exd 6:20 ¶ And Amram took him Jochebed his father's sister to wife; and she bare him Aaron and Moses: and the years of the life of Amram [were] an hundred and thirty and seven years.

Num 26:59 And the name of Amram's wife [was] Jochebed, the daughter of Levi, whom [her mother] bare to Levi in Egypt: and she bare unto Amram Aaron and Moses, and Miriam their sister.
And the age of Jochebed when she bare Moses is in Jasher.
http://www.speakingbible.com/jasher/B01C067.htm

Anyway, counting generations is not easy, but one needs to study to see when a generation is skipped because of coming through a mother who is a generation closer to the patriarchs than the father is.

In Jasher chapter 5 we read that at age four hundred ninety eight, Noah married his great grandfather's daughter, "Naamah the daughter of Enoch, and she was five hundred and eighty years old". -Now we've skipped three generations counting the sons of Noah through the mother, from Enoch.
Then Noah took the three daughters of Eliakim, son of Methuselah, for wives for his sons, as the Lord had commanded Noah.
Now the children of Noah's children are, through their mothers, are skipping two generations, Lamech and Noah, so the grandsons of Noah are only two generations removed from Enoch, through their mothers. -I needed to think that one through -whew!
Reading shows lots more like that, but you have to read and study to correlate the Scriptures with the Scriptures.

 

[solarwave]

Thanks for your well thought reply. I know that I sound like I am being hard regarding this issue, and most people, just as the post here expresses, ask, "Who cares? Why is it so important to anybody whether or not we figure out the truth about the creation.?" I'm really curious why you went from believing the literal understanding of the Scriptures to the 'scientific' point of view. Maybe you'll give me some further insight regarding that. Have you really checked out all the 'science' and 'proof' thereof that the scientific community bases their theories on? I've done tons of research into it.

I would say it is a metaphorical understanding of the Bible, though things such as the resurrection are obviously real events.

I was brought up believing the Bible was infallible and argued that it was infallible against atheists who would say things against, not that I was an expert in any way.

Then I became more open to questioning what I believed because I realised that I had wrong before and so had my church so there much be other things I am wrong about. Eventually I asked why I believed the Bible was inerrant or infallible and I really have seen a good answer to that question. It only claims that the OT is inspired and even if it claimed itself to be it would make it so. It may have fulfilled prophecies, but that doesn't mean the whole thing is infallible. Also the things I used to explain away with technicalities I see as being actual contradictions.

I know enough about the Big Bang and the age of the Earth to accept sciences view of it. It all makes sense to me.

Do you know that there is a 'theory' that explains that the pressure inside the earth is building at a fairly steady rate and that if the earth were as old as most scientists would have us believe, the earth would have long ago exploded into a gazillion pieces and been flung out into space.

I didn't know about it, but I have found that theories like this tend to be based on bad science. I think that it is something obvious enough that a scientist would have had to have answered it by now to hold an old earth view.

Do you know that there are questions regarding carbon dating that show that it, for some wildly unknown reason, becomes very unreliable beyond 5,000 years?

I have heard complaints about carbon dating before and answers to these before, though I am unsure about the specifics of what exactly you mean.

Sir Fred Hoyle, one of the world's leading astronomers and mathematicians, has stood before the British Academy of Science and explained that the probability of life arising by chance is the same probability as throwing a six on a die five million consecutive times. I'm sure you've probably heard that many scientists believe that the probability of life arising to greater and greater complexity and organization by chance through evolution is the same probability of a tornado passing through a junkyard and spitting out a fully equipped Boeing 747 jetliner.

Yeah I have heard of that before. I am aware that it is unlikely that life should arise from non-life, but the probabilities of how unlikely the universe should have the laws they do have I find the most compelling.

Also below you say it is wrong of me to quote Sagan but here you quote Fred Hoyle who (if I am not wrong) was an atheist and rejected the Big Bang because it sounded too much like there was a Creator.

Of course, another major problem with the evolutionary theory is the second law of thermodynamics. The second law of thermodynamics says that everything in the entire universe is winding down. Therefore the 'theory' of evolution, that lesser creatures became more advanced creatures stands in opposition to that law.

The second law of thermodynamics applies to closed systems (such as the universe) and so applies to the universe as a whole not small parts of it. It would make little sense for the law to be made up when it is obvious (to cosmologists) that stars formed in the past and are forming now.

The earth is not a closed system because things 'wind down' because they disperse their energy, but earth gains energy from the Sun which makes up for the loose of energy.

I write these things because I sense that you feel that you must turn your back on 'science' to believe in the creation as God has expressed it to us. There are scientists who are young earth creationists and have worked just as diligently as the others to show that what is being passed off as 'scientific' wisdom, ain't necessarily so.

The Bible expresses creation like that if taken physically and was written by and for men many years ago so I don't agree that I am disagreeing with the revelation of God. I can't help but think creationist scientists are bias, sorry.

God shares many of our human emotions. The Scriptures account that God is angered; that He feels jealousy; that He delights and feels joy. Specifically, God reveals in the law, "You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord you God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth gneration of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commendments."

See I have to disagree that God punishes children for the sins of their fathers for:

Deuteronomy 24:16: "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin."

Ezekiel 18:20: "The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him."

God is a jealous God! He is angered when we turn away from the truth that He has revealed to us and turn toward untruths and lies of the created, man. You posted a quote from Carl Sagan. You know that Carl Sagan did not believe in God. How then is it even remotely possible that he would know some 'truth' about God? Your life, my friend, is a contradiction if you say that you believe in the God of the Scirptures, but then repeat the 'wisdom' of some godless person as support for some of your belief. Surely, you can see the logic in that. How is it even possible that someone who denies the very existence of the God that you claim to believe in know some 'truth' about that God?

The reason I posted the quote because it expressed some of what I ment. I am not saying I believe what I believe because of atheists, because that isn't true, but it is also true that atheists can be correct about somethings that theists are wrong about.

For example Galileo's understanding of cosmology went against the church, but he was correct and would have been correct reguardless of his beliefs about God. Also atheist scientists could understand the beauty of the universe better than some theists and they could suggest that theists take this into account.

So, all I'm encouraging is that you stop and think, put your thinking cap on and stop and sit down and spend an hour or so just contemplating how the ramifications of what you believe ultimately work out. Like I say, I used to think just like you are thinking now. I used to read the occult books and really felt that all 'religions' were OK and they should all exist together and why can't we all just get along, but then I began to seriously, prayerfully contemplate the outcome of what I believed. To follow out all the various pathways that a particular understanding leads to.

Where does it lead to?

You see, just as your response to my previous post, you have to somehow, without any real explanation, figure that all the geneologies regarding Adam to Abraham are fanciful, but then from Abraham to now, you have no problem with the literal geneologies as expressed in God's word.

I would say the writters of the books connected the old stories of creation to real people to give the hebrews a history and a greater sense of purpose. Not to say the Bible isn't inspired by God, but in a different sense than you would use the word.

Now, mine is based on the clear, simple instructions of God's word. Yours is based on the co-mingling of God's word with 'scientific' wisdom.

The world is complecated. I try to understand the Bible and world as best as I know how and science and reason are some of the best ways to do this.

But, things such as the creation cannot be 'scientifically' derived with any known degree of accuracy because we can't reproduce the experiment.

But would believe things history tells you?

Sure, we can say that light travels at 186,000 miles per second and we can repeat that experiment over and over again to verify that, yes, light travels at 186,000 miles per second, but we cannot then, with any assured accuracy claim that it has always been this way.

There is no reason to think it would change, it isn't changing now.

Lastly, we cannot, in science, allow for miracles. There is absolutely no scientific method that allows for miracles. Science and those who practice it, begin with the given that everything has a purely natural, logical explanation. How do you believe scientists explain the virgin birth? How do scientists today explain to you, a christian, that a young Jewish woman, without ever having any male sperm introduced into her womb, bore a male child? Go ahead, search it out. Find the scientific explanation that explains that phenomenon.

Science doesn't say miracles don't happen, that is the philosophy of science.

 

[solarwave]

yeshuasavedme: We may have to agree to disagree

 

[miamited]

Hey Solarwave,

I read your post and I must say, I'm pretty blown away. Keep your thinking cap on as you go through this life.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted.

 

[solarwave]

Hey Solarwave,

I read your post and I must say, I'm pretty blown away. Keep your thinking cap on as you go through this life.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted.

Hi Miamited,

What do you mean? You agree, disagree? It is somewhat concerning that you didn't write more in reply.

Solarwave

 

[Lily_Among_Thorns]

I feel like I can see where the world is headed. And I do believe it is headed there in my lifetime. And this is not a Jehovah's Witnesses 2012 scheme, this is based off of what we know is in the bible. Look at the world around us, what's happening to the global economy, the sterilized food supplies, the lifestyles of the general population of earth.

God created the HEAVEN and the EARTH.

We were given the earth, not the heaven. So who cares about space? Who can believe in the bible and really care about it? By my faith in Christ, God created life on earth and on the seventh day rested, and that was all the creating he did.

No new matter is created in this universe. This is known, not by a thermodynamic law, but by knowledge of God as the sole creator. We can only 'form' things, even if we call it 'creating'.

God put the celestial bodies up there for us to view. They are for signs, times, seasons, etc. God is going to burn this place up before we know it and we will never get to populate any other lump of dust in the sky.

So seeing how space exploration does not do a single thing to actually benefit any of us, and the spread of such wicked 'science' (it's okay to eat food made with strange chemicals, and we came from apes, and sexual preference is inborn, and computers 'increase productivity' which just means they allow bosses to make more money) is STERILIZING and STUPEFYING the human race, why should I care about space exploration?

Why should I even believe in the heliocentric model? Why should I believe the earth is super-old? All I see are a bunch of fancy models and diagrams and terms that don't really even benefit me in any way.

I wish I would have been raised a farm boy or a Cherokee. I wish I could live off of the land and provide for myself and my family. What am I supposed to do when this comes crashing down around us? And the mark of the beast forces us to forage in the wilderness? Would we be prepared?

If we know this world is coming to its end and the return of Christ is always to be considered night at hand, and if we even pay any attention to the signs around us, I think it becomes very clear that the sun really does have a circuit around the earth. God is not going to inspire his prophets with lies, but the devil is going to lie to us always.

Why would God tell us the sun has a circuit? Why would God tell us the world was made in six mornings and six evenings? Why would God have made the sun go backwards ten degrees one time as a sign? Why tells us these things if it is "impossible for God to lie"?

If the earth was rotating around the sun, the sudden shift backwards would have really messed up everything on earth at the speeds it supposedly 'hurtles'. And then to do it *again* after a 10 degree movement? Is God going to lie through his prophets about the sun having a circuit, and let us assume that he decided to hold everything securely to the earth while the Sun merely appeared moved back ten degrees?

Think about it: are we trying to make ourselves appear 'rational' for the secular folks or are we trying to preserve the law and the prophets, which testify of our beloved LORD Christ? What do the secular people tell us?

Romans 3
4God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

I care about the age of the earth and space. And I care what is written about these things in the law and prophets. Do you?

I absolutely care and it is nice to finally find someone like me. You ever hear about walking through the doors of perception? Maybe the law and the prophets is like that. Maybe the world is too big to measure and things just appear like they are accepted now but later are proven false through faith.

Maybe the sun really does have its circuit. Maybe all that is accepted these days are just the lies of the devil and his children.

Have you ever been out in space? Why trust a scientist who will not even add God into the equation? That scientist could very well be a child of the devil.

 

[miamited]

Hi Solarwave,

Good afternoon. Wow!!! Is this day a blessing or what? God is so good!

I'm sorry to have not responded in an appropriate manner, but I thought that surely you would understand. I'm confident that anyone reading our respective posts would be hard pressed, if not impossibly constrained to see that we agree. However, I read over your post and I can 'see' your faith. I can also understand through your posts that you aren't willing to take any of my recommendation to go to the Lord in sincere humility and prayer and ask Him to show you the truth, and yes, I understand that you think you have it already. Remember, friend, I stated several posts ago that there was a time in my life that I would have written responses just exactly like yours. But, sadly, until one gains the 'sight' that Jesus spoke of to those who are born again, we don't know our blindness. I didn't! For years my faith was almost exactly like yours. It was a faith based on my own wisdom and my own will. It was a faith that was not willing to bow in humility and say to the Lord God, my Creator, "Father, today, I believe that every word that you have revealed to me through your Spirit's work with the prophets and people of Israel is absolutely true. I admit that there is a lot that I just don't understand, and that there is a lot that doesn't seem logical to my small, inconsequential mind. But starting today, I ask you for a burning, unquenchable thirst to know you through your word." If you really are a praying man, and surely a brother encouraging another brother to pray can't be seen as hostile, I'd ask you to pray that prayer for the next 7 days. Take your bible in your hand and kneel before a chair and in the greatest humility you can muster pray for the unquenchable thirst to know God through His word for the next 7 days.

You see, my friend, you don't yet 'see' the plan, and until you 'see' the plan you can't understand what God has done. You have accepted the small revelation that God, or someone, sent Jesus, or someone to die for your sin and that as long as you verbalize agreement to that, you will be called a 'child of God'. It's exactly what I used to believe, but I can only tell you, and I suspect you won't believe me, that it all changes when you receive the gift of 'sight' that comes through the Holy Spirit.

I hope that you won't mind, but I'm going to send you a PM that explains the 'plan'. I hope that you will read over it very carefully and that you will carefully research it's conformity to God's word. There is really so much more joy and peace that is available to you, but it will require that you turn from the wisdom of men to the wisdom of God.

God bless you and be in prayer. I can attest that just as happened in my life, you too, can receive 'sight'. You can be the man who cried out to our Savior, "Lord, help me in my unbelief."
In Christ, Ted.