Who cares about the age of the earth, or space?

[jonathan180iq]

Hi guys,

I'vebeenshown, asks:

Who cares about the age of the earth, or space?

I think we should all agree to put our thinking caps on as we answer this....

Very well written piece.

It certainly does matter to God what we believe. It's very clear that anyone who denies Christ will not inherit the Kingdom of God and anyone who denies the existence of God, given all the proof that is around us, is a fool. About that there is no doubt, at least to the Christian.

But the question posed in this thread takes two angles. First, and as I've mentioned before and you just mentioned in your response, socially and emotionally and in our daily lives, it doesn't really matter at all what's going on up in the deep vastness of space. Now, I personally feel that understanding the depthof space simply leads to a greater appreciation of God's awesome work, but that's beside the point. Secondly, given the physical nature of the world we live in, (ie; physical bodies, physical food, physical death... things like that) we also have to deal with this reality. No one denies that there is a spiritual side to life. If you did then you wouldn't be in these forums. And the best way, indeed to only way, to understand the spiritual is to read/study the Bible, to rely on the Holy Spirit, and to pray often. The best way to understand God's creation, that is, the physical world that he created for man to live in, is to...study it.

When doing that, the Earth appears to be old. Does anyone deny that? That the Earth appears to be old? Granted, in the realtive scope of a human life, how long is 6,000 years compared to 6 billion, really? I mean, I can't really envision it. I don't think anyone can.

And when studying the deeper aspects of the sciences, namely physics, a greater understanding of how the entire universe operates comes into view.

Now if this view seems to contradict a certain interpretation that we have of scripture, we are left with a couple of options.

They are:
1. God's Word and God's creation contradict themselves
2. God's creation is being studied incorrectly
3. Man's interpretation of scripture is incorrect.

#1 is impossible, since God cannot contradict Himself.
#2 is a possibility, because man is certainly capable of screwing things up.
#3 is proven time and time again. Just look at the number of subforums on this very website...We can't all have it right.

So which is it? Is all of science and knowledge simply wrong? (And I'm not even trying to talk about evoltion or age of the Earth stuff.) Are all of the sciences so screwed up that nothing is right? I mean, if things weren't observable to be correct ALL the time, then they wouldn't be laws, would they? And since the laws of nature and physics (which God must have established) are obviously correct, then which is it? Who is wrong here?

Does God care about what we believe? He certainly does, from a theological standpoint. But does that mean that we are supposed to completely ignore the study of the physical world and the evidence that it provides us? Without it, there would have been no technological advances at all.... None. I mean, socially and emotionally, we can love the Lord just as powerfully, if not more so, by living in small communities, foraging for food and having no electricity or any other distractions to keep us from our adoration of Him. But without mathematics, could Solomon have built the Temple? Without biology and chemistry, would there be any medecine at all? Think about it... Cars. Computers. Airplanes. Radios. Navigation systems. Batteries. Lighters. Fire extinguishers....you name it.

In that same vein, does study of the physical world take anything away from the love and adoration and priase that is owed to God? Of course not! I think it makes it stronger. When you can physically see the intricate care and detials that God put into things (things on the molecular level) and the 1,000,000,000 to 1 odds of things falling into place like they did for mankind to survive here... you can be in no other state than AWE when standing before our God; when standing before Jesus Christ.

When you can stand back and watch the vastness of space roll overhead and the absolute beauty of things like nebulae and star formations and galaxies, and gosh, everything... How awesome is God?

And you want to deny those things because of an out-of-context reading of Genesis...

 

[solarwave]

The OP has posited a very good question. What does it matter? Why is it important? Who cares? Quite frankly, if we are to consider the question for its social implications or its scientific ramifications, I don't think it does matter. I can't really imagine that anyone does care. But, let's move outside of the social implications and the scientific ramifications. Instead let's look at the spiritual consequences. Let's not ask of all our friends and neighbors and co-workers, who cares? Let's go to our Creator and ask, who cares? Does God care what we believe?

Sorry I have to disagree and say that alot of people probably do care. For me at least I see science, and more specifically physics which includes cosmology, as amazing and a great way to see Gods glory in creation. Also I believe that faith and reason don't go against each other, and so the best of faith and the best of reason should work together. The best of faith (in my opinion) is Christianity and the best of practical reason is science. Both have shown time and again that they are true and so should work together, not fight and so cause collateral damage to some peoples faith lives.

I do think that (some) scientifically minded people will choose science over religion.... if religious people make them. I probably would because science it much more obviously true that religion..... well in some ways at least. So to some it doesn't matter, but to other it could be a major sign or religions irrationality. Add to this that science has done great good, I think the issue of how to understand the Bible compared to science can be very important..... but not as much as faith in God of course.

Hmm. Seems pretty straight forward that God says that anyone who doesn't believe in the Son is condemned. So, does it matter to God whether I believe the testimony of this man, Jesus?

Not to derail the thread, but even this verse can have different interpretations, for example, what about the Son must be believed or followed?

The wisdom of the wise will perish. What does that mean and who are the 'wise'? The wise will be put to shame. Surely, God is not referring to believers who seek wisdom that begins with the fear of the Lord. God's word gives promise for that person.

But science started off as being a way to see Gods glory in creation. There are Christian scientists still who believe in the Big Bang and Evolution.

Is not the wisdom it talks of that of philosophys without God in them? Since the Big Bang and Evolution are both compatible with Christianity.

As for believing humans rather than God, well alot of what we believe about God comes from wise humans understandings of the Bible, even if we think we get it ourselves from the Bible. The Trinity and penal substitution are examples..... they may be in the Bible, but might not too obvious to some. Also the Bible talks of women being quiet in church, or slavery not being condemned. But we use our God given wisdom to interpret the Bible in light of new things we learn. The same can be done with science.

So in the end what will you follow if wisdom doesn't come into it? The Bible should be understood wisely, ethical choices must be made wisely; shouldn't all things be done in wisdom but with the foundations of Christianity in mind, and the procress of creation is not part of the foundation.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I think it is quite obvious that 'yeshuasavedme' does care what science has to say so explain it will not work.

The problem here is how to read, interpret and understand the Bible. What type of books it and how is God involved in it and how is the mind of the writter involved, what are different types of writtings used to make a deeper point?

You err in assuming that there is an entity called "Science", which is in total contradiction to the Word of God.
Your "science" is nothing but fallible men's opinions which keep on changing, while the Word of God remains unchanging.

There is no interpretation needed for Genesis 1, nor for previous [Enoch] nor subsequent Scriptures, which state openly and in many ways and multiple times that earth was created first, before the heavens were stretched out from the earth, between the divided waters of earth, and that the sun, moon, and stars were not set in the heavens for two whole days after the heavens were stretched out.

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.

 

[solarwave]

You err in assuming that there is an entity called "Science", which is in total contradiction to the Word of God.
Your "science" is nothing but fallible men's opinions which keep on changing, while the Word of God remains unchanging.

Of course I know that science is complicated than how I phrased it, but I don't go out of my way to make definitions of all major words in my statements, I just hope people can see the point I am trying to make by the context.

It may be fallible mens opinion, but this opinion has done great good and led to physical truth many a time, and stopping this search for truth will hold back the human race.

There is no interpretation needed for Genesis 1, nor for previous [Enoch] nor subsequent Scriptures, which state openly and in many ways and multiple times that earth was created first, before the heavens were stretched out from the earth, between the divided waters of earth, and that the sun, moon, and stars were not set in the heavens for two whole days after the heavens were stretched out.

Sorry if I don't take the book of Enoch very seriously, but it isn't in my Bible so I have no reason to think it any different from any other book by man.

As for Genesis, it is fair clear in the words it is using, but that doesn't mean it is literally true.

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.

They didn't have science as we know it back then, so I think this version doesn't express what was being said fully.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

They didn't have science as we know it back then, so I think this version doesn't express what was being said fully.

You must go read up on true history.
Man has "devolved", technologically, since the confounding of the mother tongue at Babel. There is nothing new under the sun, and whatever is, has already been done by those who came before us. God sets man back, into dark ages, over and over, to keep man from "achieving whatever he can imagine to do", and since the fall and casting out from Eden of the first Adam and the head of the race, the imagination of man's heart is only evil continually.
Man/Adamkind has done it all before, that is said to be new today, and over and over again forgets what was before, and has never risen to the glory, in this age, that he did rise to, in many ancient civilizations.

Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it [is that] which shall be; and that which is done [is] that which shall be done: and [there is] no new [thing] under the sun.Ecc 1:10 Is there [any] thing whereof it may be said, See, this [is] new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. Ecc 1:11 [There is] no remembrance of former [things]; neither shall there be [any] remembrance of [things] that are to come with [those] that shall come after. -And Enoch is inspired Scripture in my Bible, and in the Bible of the Ethiopian Christians, and in the Bible of Jesus and His family. His womb brothers, Jude and James, both quote from Enoch, as Jesus does, and as His Apostles and disciples, Peter, Barnabas and Paul did, and as His elect, royal priesthood line, the sons of Zadok, did, who kept it in their Bible -as proved by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Without Enoch's revelations, you have no foundation for the Son of Man in heaven, the origin of demons, the Lake of Fire, the Book of Life, the Tribulation, the great judgement at the end of the earth's week of thousand year days, the City of God, and many other foundational doctrines, like the Trinity.
Nor is there an understanding of the reason the one goat on the Day of Atonement was elected by lot "to Azazel" [wrongly translated to "scapegoat, in English], on whom the high priest in Israel laid all the sins and iniquities, by transference, of the entire people of YHWH, once, yearly, and sent that goat away, "to Azazel" bearing those sins and iniquities. Without Enoch, the vision is perished, and truth is fallen by the wayside.

 

[miamited]

Hi Jonathon,
You also bring up a very good point. You actually have hit the nail on the head, but you don’t know it yet. Again, let’s pull our thinking caps on real tight and let’s think this through. You see, one of the problems that always find with evolution and old earth theories is that they never get to the core of the matter. They rely on science to provide answers, but they can’t ever answer the question of ‘first cause’, because it is a miracle and there is no explanation or acceptance of the miraculous in science. You said it yourself:

I mean, if things weren't observable to be correct ALL the time, then they wouldn't be laws, would they? And since the laws of nature and physics (which God must have established) are obviously correct, then which is it? Who is wrong here?

How does one go about proving a miracle? Tell me, what method of science have you come across that proves a miracle. What ‘law’ of medical science gives a perfectly logical, reasonable explanation for a young Jewish woman to find herself full of child without ever having had sexual relations or any introduction of male sperm into her womb. What ‘law’ of physical science easily and readily explains angels appearing to a group of shepherds in the middle of the night praising God and heralding good news of a Savior who was born that night? You see, you depend on science to explain miracles and science can’t do that. Now, you obfuscate the issue by bringing up all the wonders of modern mathematical and scientific discoveries that we enjoy in our lives today, and believe me, I have no problem with science that is observable and repeatable and can be shown over and over again to bring about the same effect.

Unfortunately, when we begin to deal with things that have occurred in the past that are not now recurring, we have no method of provement that qualifies as scientific. We can guess. We can consider theories based on other observable science, but we can’t actually repeat the whole enchilada and say, “There!!! That’s how it was done!”

But I mentioned that you had made a most valid point, but failed to carry it out to its completion. Let me explain and give this some or your serious, prayerful understanding. You wrote;
The best way to understand God's creation, that is, the physical world that he created for man to live in, is to...study it.

Why did God create this physical world? You said it, for man to live in. Hmm. Ok, let’s go with that. Do you believe the account of Adam and Eve? That they were the first two living people that God personally made by His own hand upon the earth? Or do you rather believe in evolution?

Think about this very carefully. What did you say? God’s creation, that is, the physical world that he created for man to live in,…”
Is this God that you claim to love more than myself, as a YEC, not powerful enough or strong enough or mighty enough or wise enough to create a perfect universe with what we would call the ‘snap of a finger’? What did you say? God’s creation, that is, the physical world that he created for man to live in,…
Why did God create the earth? Why did God create the heavens and the universe? Let me give you the answer. God created all of the physical realm in which we live, for man to live in. If man is only some 6,000 years old, and I get that by using that handy mathematical calculator and working through the generations from Adam to Noah to Abraham, etc., why would He have created the universe millions or billions of years ago?

Was He afraid that He might not have gotten it right so He wanted to let it run for a few million years to make sure that He had thought of everything? Is He such a weak God that He had to allow for all of the rock strata and sandstone formations and fossil record to build up over a few million years? You see, my friend, your not correct. You believe in a God who can’t do the impossible. You believe in a God who can’t create miracles. You believe in a God who, sure maybe He got things rolling somehow, but your theory doesn’t even allow that God really created, as presently formed, all the heavenly bodies and starry host that you claim to look to in awe of what an awesome God He is. No, your theory says that there was this big bang of energy some billions of years ago and all the stars and planets that you see weren’t really personally made by the hand of God, He doesn’t really know all the stars by name, He didn’t even make them, they just turned out that way from the big bang. Kind of a ‘lucky shot’ eh?

You see, my friend, the God that I know. Because He is love and desired to create a creature to be like himself, made in His image, that He could have a personal relationship with, that God spoke the entire universe into existence for nothing more than to create a place for this special creation of His to live in. It didn’t take him millions of years, even though the scientists of today wag their finger at anyone who would be so foolish as to think so. It took Him six days and after He created all that we see and enjoy in this physical realm, the place that He made for man to live in, He lovingly formed the first man and woman and enjoyed being with them until such a time when they turned away from Him and His love and followed Satan.

The Scriptures are clear, even though there are hundreds of thousands of people today who believe that Adam was not a real person, but rather a ‘representative’ of people, that Adam lived 930 years. His son Seth lived 912 years, and his son Enoch lived 905 years. It’s all recorded. A person, and the number of years of life that they were given.

Why would God create the earth and the universe millions or billions of years ago if, in fact, your point is true? That God made all of the physical realm in which we live for the life of man.

Now, you also stated:

When doing that, the Earth appears to be old. Does anyone deny that? That the Earth appears to be old?

Tell me, friend, what about the earth ‘appears’ to be old? Do rocks ‘look’ old? Fossils surely look reasonably old, but they can be formed in just a few hundred years. We have ‘scientific’ proof of fossils being formed in some places where riverbeds have changed in a very short period. We have even been able to show that fossilized wood or ‘petrified’ wood can actually be made in just a few years. What about the earth can you really say ‘looks’ old? What if, in God’s most infinite wisdom and understanding He knew that planets, heavenly bodies, in order to endure for thousands of years had to be made the way that they are? What if, God, with that same wisdom knew that the special planet that He made just for mankind to live on would need oil and other reserves of metals and such to provide for mankind? And what if God, in all of his great wisdom and power and might and majesty were able to create a universe that was perfect in every way for to sustain the life of His created, man? And finally, what if God also knew, in His prophetic, Alpha to Omega existence that men would use science and their own knowledge to debunk all that God did for us? It just seems to me that the God I serve who asks me to love Him and trust Him would warn me that such things would try to pull me away from the truth so that He could be denied. And I find it so very, very sad that there are people living upon the earth that God created for man to live in, who are party to all of this pseudo-science and draw others away from the power and majesty and provision and wisdom and knowledge of God in their own ignorance to accept the folly of man’s wisdom.

My friend, you are welcome to believe what you will. It is of no importance to me, other than the fact that I care about everyone and desire that they also know the one true God, but I ask you to seriously consider and prayerfully contemplate the full ramifications of what you believe and teach. If, in fact, God did create all of the physical realm in which we live just as He has revealed it in the Scriptures with no hoops to jump through or no ‘special’ understanding, just His word and a simple, trusting mind that will believe it. And there are those who do believe and do trust that God is so awesome and powerful and mighty and majestic to have created all of this in the time span that He explains, and keep in mind that God put the years of the generations in His Holy Scriptures for a reason, and there are others who have worked hard to mix the knowledge of men and ‘science’ to dispel what God has revealed as His truth; who is the faithful and wise servant? Is it you, or is it me?

God bless you and I have much more to write, but it is very late here.

In Christ, Ted.

 

[solarwave]

You must go read up on true history.
Man has "devolved", technologically, since the confounding of the mother tongue at Babel. There is nothing new under the sun, and whatever is, has already been done by those who came before us. God sets man back, into dark ages, over and over, to keep man from "achieving whatever he can imagine to do", and since the fall and casting out from Eden of the first Adam and the head of the race, the imagination of man's heart is only evil continually.
Man/Adamkind has done it all before, that is said to be new today, and over and over again forgets what was before, and has never risen to the glory, in this age, that he did rise to, in many ancient civilizations.

Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it [is that] which shall be; and that which is done [is] that which shall be done: and [there is] no new [thing] under the sun.Ecc 1:10 Is there [any] thing whereof it may be said, See, this [is] new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. Ecc 1:11 [There is] no remembrance of former [things]; neither shall there be [any] remembrance of [things] that are to come with [those] that shall come after.

So you don't believe in the Flood or the incarnation and that Jesus will be forgotten? Because if you take the above in such a general way then that would be the case. There is nothing new under the sun..... so do you believe in reincarnation?

My point is not that you believe the above, but that you either do not take the above as literal as you claim or that you are hypocritical about how you apply it, allowing Jesus to be something new but not science to do things new.

In my opinion Ecclesiastes is trying to explain the pointlessness of life without God, not give a theology of the past.

-And Enoch is inspired Scripture in my Bible, and in the Bible of the Ethiopian Christians, and in the Bible of Jesus and His family. His womb brothers, Jude and James, both quote from Enoch, as Jesus does, and as His Apostles and disciples, Peter, Barnabas and Paul did, and as His elect, royal priesthood line, the sons of Zadok, did, who kept it in their Bible -as proved by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Without Enoch's revelations, you have no foundation for the Son of Man in heaven, the origin of demons, the Lake of Fire, the Book of Life, the Tribulation, the great judgement at the end of the earth's week of thousand year days, the City of God, and many other foundational doctrines, like the Trinity.
Nor is there an understanding of the reason the one goat on the Day of Atonement was elected by lot "to Azazel" [wrongly translated to "scapegoat, in English], on whom the high priest in Israel laid all the sins and iniquities, by transference, of the entire people of YHWH, once, yearly, and sent that goat away, "to Azazel" bearing those sins and iniquities. Without Enoch, the vision is perished, and truth is fallen by the wayside.

Well I will probably read it some day, but sorry, as for now it doesn't hold much importance for me.

miamited: Saying that God made the universe of many millions of years doesn't mean we are saying that God couldn't have made it like said in Genesis.

 

[miamited]

Hi solarwave,
Good to hear from you. You wrote:

miamited: Saying that God made the universe of many millions of years doesn't mean we are saying that God couldn't have made it like said in Genesis.

I'm sorry, but it does. You see, I've been where you are. I used to believe as you believe. I used to think that it made no difference. I was only born again 14 years ago or so and I'm 55 years old. Your statement, just as when I made the same such statements years ago, shows a faulty logic, if we believe God's word is the truth.

Let's pull those thinking caps on really, really tight. Let's really get down to the nitty-gritty. God's word says that on the sixth day of creation, He created man. He then goes on to say that that man's name was called Adam and that man Adam lived 930 years. So, let's lay aside for a moment the theories that claim the six days were eons, as I'm supposing must be your belief. Adam is told to be the first man, created by the very hand of God out of the dirt that was upon the earth. Do you believe this?

If God's word says that Adam lived 930 years are we to believe that those years are full orbits around the sun, just as we account years today? Let's consider the incongruity that the six days were really eons of time, but then suddenly God created Adam and time slowed down to actual years. The question for us to answer is whether God created Adam in a moment on a literal day of creation or did God take thousands of years to form the first man, Adam, and then give him 930 years of life?

Now, let's add a little more complexity to the mix. Not only does God's word say that He created Adam on a day, but He also created all of the land animals on that same day. Again, disregarding all of the previous days or eons of time, whichever you believe, let's deal with just day six.

The sun had been created and all of the universe. The planets and all the heavenly bodies were in their respective orbits. Does God really expect us to understand that day six was not a literal 24 hour day? The earth revolved, the sun warmed the earth so that all the living creatures could have life and not immediately die in some frozen wasteland of a terrestrial body. You see, my friend, just by starting backwards and working our way to the beginning, it becomes harder not to understand that a day was a literal 24 hour day.

Everyone always starts with day one and says, "Oh, look the stars and planets and sun and moon hadn't even been created so how can there have been a 24 hour day?" Fine! Start from day six, however, and it's easy to see how God could have had written by His Spirit upon the parchment scrolls that became our modern day bible the word 'day' and meant a 24 hour day. Then, if we read further that the first man was given 930 years of life it becomes even more ludicrous to think that up until this final day of creation, time was stretched into eons and milleniums and then suddenly Adam is created and time begins to be counted in regular, ordinary years of what we know as 365 days.

And it has been said that the eon 'theory' doesn't rob God of any of His glory, but yes it does. You see, a god who just places some infinitisimal speck of enormous energy that over millions and billions of years logically and naturally through normal, provable, scientific and law abiding methods becomes a universe and in that universe one planet just happens to grow into a garden where over eons of time and evolutionary logical and natural normal, provable, scientific and law abiding methods begins to grow vegetation over millions of years and then somehow begins to grow life in animals and finally through natural, provable, scientific methods some animal becomes a man, is surely a great god. However, the God who in the mere span of six days speaks and "WHoooooosh'!!!!! suddenly there is all around and throughout the inky blackness of empty space millions upon millions of heavenly bodies and then chooses one heavenly body out of all of the millions upon millions of other heavenly bodies and speaks and 'Whooooosh'!!! there are seas and dry land and plants and animals and man all begun and created in just a mere speck of time. That God is a greater God!! That God is a more powerful God. That God is even a wiser God because He created all things just as they are to work perfectly and didn't rely on billions of years of time for evolutionary 'theory' to just fill in the gaps as best as natural selection can do. The first man worships a great god for sure, but the second man worships an even greater God. An even wiser God! An even more powerful, majestic, awesome God because that man knows the true wisdom and power of the one true God. The first man, eh, yea, god started a good thing and I'm sure glad it worked out the way it did. But the second man serves an even greater God.

So, while the rhetoric certianly sounds good, that there is no difference between the glory given to God no matter what we believe about the creation, and surely many people are swayed by such a god, when we get right down to the real nitty-gritty of the creation and the differences in the power of the god who created through billions and billions of years and the God who created such marvelous perfection in six literal days, I think any thinking man would say that the second God is a greater God. You see, again, people who hold such beliefs that it doesn't matter, haven't really chased the rabbit all the way to the end of the hole. They tend to grab on to a small piece of a theory and accept it and teach it and believe it without sitting down and taking the time, through careful and diligent prayer and study of God's word, to follow what ever theory it is to the beginning. Even the big bang theory of a infinitisimal particle of pure energy that became all that we see today in this physical realm can't get to the beginning. They can't show where the small particle of energy came from. So, while they build a great demonstration of wisdom and knowledge of things that sounds so wonderfully sensible, they still can't get to the 'miracle'. The beginning.

The God I serve, is an awesome, nay let me say, AWESOME!!! God. He created all of the physical realm in which we live in a mere speck of time because the work of His creating was for a purpose. That purpose was to create a living environment for man, His shining most glorious created being in this realm. And the very fact that He was able to do it in six literal days is just some small measurable example to us, of His great and awsome power.

Finally, I hope that you still have your thinking cap on, we have to look at the purpose of the creation just as I addressed in the previous post. Everything that God does is for a purpose. The simple question that I always ask million, billion year old creationists is, "Why?" If the sole purpose of this entire realm of God's creating was to provide a place for man to live and that man is only 6,000 years old, of course you have to believe that part of the creation account, why would He spend millions and billions of years with a lifeless universe?

Friend, I think that any thinking person who really sits down and takes the time to work out both of the above 'theories' of our existence, even if they aren't a believer can clearly see the difference in the glory of the two different gods portrayed.

Some 6,000 years ago God created out of absolutely black inky nothingness of all the space in the universe an awsome and incalculable heavenly universe. He created it all so that as soon as it was all made, He created a man and a woman to love Him and live with Him in a close relationship of love and adoration of each other. He gave that man and woman the authority to have children so that they could also understand the love of a Father for a child. I love my Father.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted.

 

[Chris81]

Miamited:

Do you as a YEC believe in a geocentric view of the universe?

 

[miamited]

Hi Chris,

Only as it relates to God. I believe, since all of the Scriptures deal with God's working with mankind, that in God's eyes, the earth is the center of the universe. However, that all of the hundreds, maybe thousands of solar systems and their respective physical planets and bodies that make up their whole, rotate around the earth, I haven't found any proof of that or any necessity for it to be true. Although, there is neither any proof that the entire universe doesn't have the earth as it's center.

The universe was made to work, period. Whatever is the best design for the millions of heavenly bodies that God created when He spoke the heavens into existence, is how God designed it. If you really want to blow your mind, ask yourself and study why the universe is so big. When you begin to wrap your head around that, you really begin to understand the awesome knowledge and wisdom and power and majesty of God.

Millions upon millions of stars, planets and all the other 'stuff' of the universe moves and every single piece spins and rotates through space. Even the sun, we often think of as existing in a stationary point because most of our elementary education regarding space deals mostly with our solar system and we have the big yellow sun with all the other planets on metal rods orbiting around it, but even the sun has an orbit. Consider that the Milky Way, our galaxy, has an orbit. It's such a marvelous wonderful concert of form and movement that everything is spinning, orbiting and moving about the vast expanse of black, inky space.

When I really get my head around all of the beauty and perfection created by such great wisdom and knowledge as to make all that work, brother, simple earthly miracles are relatively a piece of cake! That the God who created all of that could impregnate a young Jewish girl to bring about the birth of His Son, seems like child's play. Don't misunderstand me, it's still an awesome miracle and it is the most wonderful example of the depth of God's love for us, even beyond the creation of our home here, but when the miracle of the vastness and complexity of all of the universe is laid beside the virgin birth, something just pales in that comparison. Then when we are able to wrap our head around the 'fact' that God did all of that, from one end of the universe to another in just a matter of moments. WOW!!!!! The awesome wonder of who God really is begins to sink in and one can't help but fall on their knees with hands reaching towards the heavens and declare, "Thank you mighty God that you love me. Thank you for such great wisdom, provision and love that I can hardly even consider its depth."

I believe that this what the Scriptures teach that God wants from us. Pure and total worship and adoration for who He is and what He has done that we may have life.

God bless you my friend.
In Christ, Ted.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Hi Chris,

Only as it relates to God. I believe, since all of the Scriptures deal with God's working with mankind, that in God's eyes, the earth is the center of the universe.

God bless you my friend.
In Christ, Ted.

Agreed!

Earth may physically orbit in a NON-DRUNKEN path, as a CALM roe, but it is still the 'center' of God's magnificent universe!

 

[solarwave]

Hi solarwave,
Good to hear from you. You wrote:

miamited: Saying that God made the universe of many millions of years doesn't mean we are saying that God couldn't have made it like said in Genesis.

I'm sorry, but it does. You see, I've been where you are. I used to believe as you believe. I used to think that it made no difference. I was only born again 14 years ago or so and I'm 55 years old. Your statement, just as when I made the same such statements years ago, shows a faulty logic, if we believe God's word is the truth.

The sentance of mine you quoted is not saying that I am an Old Earth Creationist or that the sequence of events is the same for Genesis and the Big Bang and evolution. It might be able to be made to look the same, but I think that is too much like trying to stick two things together that arn't ment to go together.

What the above is saying is that I believe God could have made the universe in 6 days, He has the power, I don't deny that, but God chose to make it in a more creative and awe inspiring way.

So I'll say now that I am a theistic evolutionist and that at the moment I take the framework theory of Genesis to be convincing and that I think that the Creation story/s are metaphors and so convey deeper meaning than what is see in a literal interpretation.

This means that much of what you say below doesn't apply to me because I don't think that the Genesis 1 days were 24 hours or eons, but that they never happened but expresses a spiritual reality which would be hard to express in normal words.

At this time I'll make another point; Assume for a second that the Big Bang and Evolution were real, would God have made Genesis the story of the Big Bang, etc? I think not because the point of the Bible is not to give exact historical information (thought it may do this) but is to tell us of our relationship with God, fully made known through Jesus Christ.

Do you believe this?

The above is referring to Adam.

Adam could have been a real person, but if you want to know what I really think then I think that all of creation, including Adam and Eve, are a metaphor, but a spiritual one.

One reason I could say this is because the formate of the writting of Genesis 1 and 2 are different. Genesis 1 is much more poem like, with its repeating patterns and numbers, but Genesis 2 sounds more like a myth (sorry for the use of that word, but I do mean a spiritual myth).

Add to think (and other things) the evidence from science about the age of the universe I think it is quite fair to think the Creation story is non-literal and the universe is about 13.7 billion years old.

And it has been said that the eon 'theory' doesn't rob God of any of His glory, but yes it does.

I would say at the least God creating by science is more impressive than instant creation. I say that because it takes less creativity and intelligence to create like Genesis says. There is no power difference in the two ways of created since God doesn't even use power in the way we think of power. He thinks and it happens and this can be done in both cases. But then if we think in terms of complexity then creation by the Big Bang is more complex since in the one instant of massive power (more power than in the step by step creation of Genesis) God not only creates the matter and energy required for the universe but also sets up the laws of the universe at that time too, laws so amazing in their design that they can take a 'ball' of energy and turn it into everything we see now. Now that is intelligent design.

They tend to grab on to a small piece of a theory and accept it and teach it and believe it without sitting down and taking the time, through careful and diligent prayer and study of God's word, to follow what ever theory it is to the beginning.

Well I have thought about it and read about it and will continue to study better the theory of the Big Bang and Evolution. I don't know everything about it, but I would like to think I know more than the average person on this subject.

If the sole purpose of this entire realm of God's creating was to provide a place for man to live and that man is only 6,000 years old, of course you have to believe that part of the creation account, why would He spend millions and billions of years with a lifeless universe?

That is the case now, but who knows how long the human race will survive, and so make it worth it?

Even then I don't think that the whole universe is only for us. In a way that is arrogant.... what are we but dust and will return to dust, our hope is in Christ not our own nature.

What is there are aliens? Are they not also creations of God and so the universe is for their sake also. As well as that the size and age of the universe displays the glory of God. Time makes no difference to God and so why does it matter if there were billions years before our existance, Im sure God still enjoyed it.

 

[miamited]

Hello Yeshuasavedme,

Greetings, and me also. You might find your point better made with a newer translation:

Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,

You are absolutely correct that we have been warned to watch out and guard ourselves against such wise knowledge and wisdom that leads men away from God. Sadly, even Paul understood that 2,000 years ago and today it is even more prevelant.

God bless you, brother.
In Christ, Ted.

 

[solarwave]

Science doesn't lead ment away from God, bad theology and philosophy do.

 

[miamited]

Hi Solarwave,

Science doesn't lead men away from God, bad theology and philosophy do.

That's a great sounding platitude, but is it true? What if God did create the realm of our physical universe in six days about 6,000 years ago just as the words and the timeline of the generations would suggest? Is science then leading men toward or away from God? You see, friend, it's all in what you believe to be the truth of God.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted.

 

[miamited]

Hi solarwave,

yea, I used to think a lot of that same way, too. Then I was born again. It all changed fairly rapidly for me from that point.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted.

 

[solarwave]

"Science doesn't lead men away from God, bad theology and philosophy do."

That's a great sounding platitude, but is it true? What if God did create the realm of our physical universe in six days about 6,000 years ago just as the words and the timeline of the generations would suggest? Is science then leading men toward or away from God? You see, friend, it's all in what you believe to be the truth of God.

I would say that if the earth is 6000 years old then God has done a good job at hiding it. Don't different accounts of the generations contradict each other?

Considering that one is saved reguardless of what one believes about creation and it isn't fair to say all young earth creationist are closer to God than all theistic evolutionists.

When I said the above quote I ment that science cause people to lose their faith, bad theology and philosophy do. If someone learns something about science or history and they lose faith it is probably because they were taught a too confined view of Christianity which means their belief in God is tied up in less important doctrines (eg: creation or even the infallibility of the Bible).

yea, I used to think a lot of that same way, too. Then I was born again. It all changed fairly rapidly for me from that point.

It sounds like you are saying that I am not born again.... but I'll assume that isn't what you ment. I do believe in being born again and in the gifts of the Spirit, such as tongues, prophecy and healing.

I can say that I used believe closer to what you believe, but then I realised that I believed both science and religion were good was to truth, physical and spiritual truth, and that there is more to Christiainity than doctrines of belief.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I would say that if the earth is 6000 years old then God has done a good job at hiding it. Don't different accounts of the generations contradict each other?

How has God hidden the age of the earth?
He quite plainly, and in many different accouts, has told us the age of the earth.
The chronological record is given in the real book of Jasher -http://www.speakingbible.com/jasher/B01C046.htm.
Enoch reveals the timeline of this present creation as seven thousand years, in several ways, and the Oracles and the prophets corroborate it.

The Millennial reign is the Sabbath Millennium for this earth, as is recorded, beginning in Enoch, of the one week of thousand year days allotted to this present creation.

 

[solarwave]

How has God hidden the age of the earth?
He quite plainly, and in many different accouts, has told us the age of the earth.
The chronological record is given in the real book of Jasher -http://www.speakingbible.com/jasher/B01C046.htm.
Enoch reveals the timeline of this present creation as seven thousand years, in several ways, and the Oracles and the prophets corroborate it.

The Millennial reign is the Sabbath Millennium for this earth, as is recorded, beginning in Enoch, of the one week of thousand year days allotted to this present creation.

Because the world appears to be billions not thousands of eyars old and books inspired by God are not clear at all.

So you believe there are many creations?

 

[jonathan180iq]

I think 178 posts over 18 pages is probably enough time for us to have clearly stated our positions....

So this is my last one:
It's easy to explain the process of building a one-room apartment. Constructing an entire city, with sidewalks, and roads, and interstates, and by-passes, and subways, and suburbs, is a little more complex.