Who believes Jesus is God??

[peebly63]

Isaiah 9 vs 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

doesn't this say Jesus is God in every way...

 

[samcarternx]

When God said. "Let there be light." He had already decided what He wanted to make. His will initiated this process with these words. They were the beginning of creation, and in them everything God wanted was waiting to unfold. Like dominoes falling into place, those words began the creation that we know today. The whole physical universe is heading for completion conforming to this will. This will produced a body for Himself so even though the physical universe was corrupted by human rebellion, His work would finish even better than when it started. And not for the humans is this going to happen either, but so no one could say He started something He could not finish.

 

[Jack Terrence]

So Peebly,

What you have quoted, according to YOU, states that Jesus will be CALLED: EVERLASTING FATHER. Where in the entirety of scripture, other than in this ONE instance, have YOU found Christ being referred to as "Everlasting Father"?

Young's Literal Translation:

For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

Orthodox Jewish Bible:

For unto us a yeled is born, unto us ben is given; and the misrah (dominion) shall be upon his shoulder; and Shmo shall be called Peleh (Wonderful), Yoetz (Counsellor), El Gibbor (Mighty G-d), Avi Ad (Possessor of Eternity), Sar Shalom (Prince of Peace).


Barnes' Notes:

The everlasting Father - The Chaldee renders this expression, 'The man abiding forever.' The Vulgate, 'The Father of the future age.' Lowth, 'The Father of the everlasting age.'

Literally, it is the Father of eternity, עד אבי 'ĕby ‛ad. The word rendered "everlasting," עד ‛ad, properly denotes "eternity," and is used to express "forever;" see Psalm 9:6, Psalm 9:19; Psalm 19:10. It is often used in connection with עולם ‛ôlâm, thus, עולם ועד vā‛ed ‛ôlâm, "forever and ever;" Psalm 10:16; Psalm 21:5; Psalm 45:7. The Hebrews used the term father in a great variety of senses - as a literal father, a grandfather, an ancestor, a ruler, an instructor. The phrase may either mean the same as the Eternal Father, and the sense will be, that the Messiah will not, as must be the case with an earthly king, however excellent, leave his people destitute after a short reign, but will rule over them and bless them forever (Hengstenberg); or it may be used in accordance with a custom usual in Hebrew and in Arabic, where he who possesses a thing is called the father of it. Thus, the father of strength means strong; the father of knowledge, intelligent; the father of glory, glorious; the father of goodness, good; the father of peace, peaceful. According to this, the meaning of the phrase, the Father of eternity, is properly eternal. The application of the word here is derived from this usage. The term Father is not applied to the Messiah here with any reference to the distinction in the divine nature, for that word is uniformly, in the Scriptures, applied to the first, not to the second person of the Trinity. But it is used in reference to durations, as a Hebraism involving high poetic beauty. lie is not merely represented as everlasting, but he is introduced, by a strong figure, as even the Father of eternity. as if even everlasting duration owed itself to his paternity. There could not be a more emphatic declaration of strict and proper eternity. It may be added, that this attribute is often applied to the Messiah in the New Testament; John 8:58; Colossians 1:17; Revelation 1:11, Revelation 1:17-18; Hebrews 1:10-11; John 1:1-2.

Isaiah 9 Barnes' Notes on the Bible

 

[he-man]

Rev.3:14, "...declares the Amen, the Witness, the Faithful and Genuine One, the Beginning of the Creation of God." my rendition of course. Let's do a paradigm shift, to it's all Koine to me, from that, forward to the English. My word of encouragement to you, others, of the former, also make a paradigm shift from the incunabula, chiliasm, to my and other's view of a-chiliasm then we both can see and realize He is the uncreated Son.

LOL Rev 3:14 και τω αγγελω της εν λαοδικια εκκλησιας γραψο ταδε λεγει ο αμη και ο μαρτυς ο πιστος και ο αληθινος και η αρχη της εκκλησιας του θυ [Codex Sinaiticus]

Rev 3:14 "To the messenger of the congregation in Laodicea, write: 'Such things says the amen, the true witness who is faithful, and the beginning of the congregation of God's creation:

 

[Jack Terrence]

Re 3:14 And to announce to the congregation of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the *Incunabula creation of God;

“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. NIV

14 `And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness -- the faithful and true -- the chief of the creation of God; Young's Literal Translation

 

[Jack Terrence]

Jude 5 is translated as LORD יהוה צבאות Yehovah and not as Jesus. Nunbers 26:65 shows God יהוה צבאות Yehovah pronounced death upon those in the wilderness and not Jesus. Jesus is the Son of God and is not God.

The early Greek manuscripts say "Jesus" in verse 5. The "Lord" reading came later. Please pay attention. The earlier the manuscript is the closer it is to the original. Therefore, The "Jesus" reading is closest to the original.

But it makes no difference for there is only one Lord in the text and He is CLEARLY identified as Jesus Christ in verse 4. Therefore, the "Lord" of verse 5 is Jesus Christ.

4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

There are not two Lords in the text. The Lord of verse 5 who saved them out of Egypt is identified as Jesus Christ in verse 4.

You need to learn to pay attention!

 

[Evergreen48]

The early Greek manuscripts say "Jesus" in verse 5. The "Lord" reading came later. Please pay attention. The earlier the manuscript is the closer it is to the original. Therefore, The "Jesus" reading is closest to the original.

You have been deceived. Greisbach used the oldest MSS. available in his translation (B.,Cod. Vaticanus No. 1209, A., of the fourth century, Cod. Alexdranrinus , of the fifth century , and C., Cod. Ephrem of about the fifth century. These were the best out of some 600 MSS. that have been discovered since the Textus Receptus was written.) . His reading of Jude 5 is:

To remind but you I wish knowing you once this because the LORD people out of land of Egypt having saved the second time those not having believed he destroyed

("But I wish to remind you, though you once knew this, that the LORD, having saved the people out of the land of Eghpt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe;")

 

[he-man]

The early Greek manuscripts say "Jesus" in verse 5. The "Lord" reading came later. Please pay attention. The earlier the manuscript is the closer it is to the original. Therefore, The "Jesus" reading is closest to the original.

Jude 5 is translated as LORD יהוה צבאות Yehovah and not as Jesus.

Nunbers 26:65 shows God יהוה צבאות Yehovah pronounced death upon those in the wilderness and not Jesus. Jesus is the Son of God and is not a god.

2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

πομνησαι δε ϋμας βουλομαι ειδοτας ϋμας παντα οτι κς απαξ λαον εκ γης αιγυπτου σωσας το δευτερον τους μη πιστευσαντας απωλεσε
Codex Sinaiticus; Codex Beza; Codex Alexandrous; Codex Vaticanus; Manuscript numbers: P72; 436; 945;1067; 1175; 1292
Source: The Greek New Testament 4th Edition, 2007

5 But I wish to put you in remembrance, though you already know all things, that the Lord, after having saved the people from the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those that believed not:

Num 26:65 For Jehovah had said of them, They shall surely die in the wilderness. And there was not left a man of them, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. H3068 YHWH יהוה
Jewish national name of God

 

[mathetes123]

Jude 5 is translated as LORD יהוה צבאות Yehovah and not as Jesus.

Nunbers 26:65 shows God יהוה צבאות Yehovah pronounced death upon those in the wilderness and not Jesus. Jesus is the Son of God and is not a god.

2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

πομνησαι δε ϋμας βουλομαι ειδοτας ϋμας παντα οτι κς απαξ λαον εκ γης αιγυπτου σωσας το δευτερον τους μη πιστευσαντας απωλεσε
Codex Sinaiticus; Codex Beza; Codex Alexandrous; Codex Vaticanus; Manuscript numbers: P72; 436; 945;1067; 1175; 1292
Source: The Greek New Testament 4th Edition, 2007

5 But I wish to put you in remembrance, though you already know all things, that the Lord, after having saved the people from the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those that believed not:

Num 26:65 For Jehovah had said of them, They shall surely die in the wilderness. And there was not left a man of them, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. H3068 YHWH יהוה
Jewish national name of God

Who do you believe Jesus is if you do not believe He is God? Are you suggesting He is a man or an angel or other created being?

 

[Jack Terrence]

Jude 5 is translated as LORD יהוה צבאות Yehovah and not as Jesus.

You're still not paying attention! It is not a matter of translation. It is a matter of which Greek text is inspired. Some Greek texts say "Lord" and some say "Jesus." The EARLY Greek texts say "Jesus."

Again it doesn't matter if it is "Lord" in verse 5 because the "Lord" is Jesus Christ according to verse 4. It is the same Greek word in both verses:

Verse 4: παρεισέδυσαν γάρ τινες ἄνθρωποι, οἱ πάλαι προγεγραμμένοι εἰς τοῦτο τὸ κρίμα, ἀσεβεῖς, τὴν τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν χάριτα μετατιθέντες εἰς ἀσέλγειαν καὶ τὸν μόνον δεσπότην καὶ κύριον [kurios] ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν ἀρνούμενοι.

Verse 5: Ὑπομνῆσαι δὲ ὑμᾶς βούλομαι, εἰδότας ὑμᾶς πάντα, ὅτι ὁ κύριος [kurios]ἅπαξ λαὸν ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου σώσας τὸ δεύτερον τοὺς μὴ πιστεύσαντας ἀπώλεσεν,

If it is Yehovah in verse 5, then it is Yehovah in verse 4 for it is the SAME WORD! You think that you can just wave your magic wand and make them two different words.

 

[he-man]

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? It is not a matter of translation. It is a matter of which Greek text is inspired. Some Greek texts say "Lord" and some say "Jesus." The EARLY Greek texts say "Jesus." Again it doesn't matter if it is "Lord" in verse 5

That is why God says He is not a MAN, nor is He the Son of Man there is no god with me:

Nu 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
16 With him is strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver are his.

The culprit revealed:
De 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

1Sa 2:6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

 

[Jack Terrence]

That is why God says He is not a MAN, nor is He the Son of Man there is no god with me:

Nu 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
16 With him is strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver are his.

The culprit revealed:
De 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

1Sa 2:6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

You are changing the subject! The EARLY Greek texts say "Jesus" in verse 5. The later texts say "Lord" in verse 5. But it doesn't matter because the "Lord" is identified as Jesus Christ in verse 4.

Verse 4: παρεισέδυσαν γάρ τινες ἄνθρωποι, οἱ πάλαι προγεγραμμένοι εἰς τοῦτο τὸ κρίμα, ἀσεβεῖς, τὴν τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν χάριτα μετατιθέντες εἰς ἀσέλγειαν καὶ τὸν μόνον δεσπότην καὶ κύριον [kurios] ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν ἀρνούμενοι.

Verse 5: Ὑπομνῆσαι δὲ ὑμᾶς βούλομαι, εἰδότας ὑμᾶς πάντα, ὅτι ὁ κύριος [kurios] ἅπαξ λαὸν ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου σώσας τὸ δεύτερον τοὺς μὴ πιστεύσαντας ἀπώλεσεν,

If it is Yehovah in verse 5, then it is Yehovah in verse 4 for it is the SAME WORD! You think that you can just wave your magic wand and make them two different words.

Give it up!

 

[he-man]

You are changing the subject!
If it is Yehovah in verse 5, then it is Yehovah in verse 4 for it is the SAME WORD!

Grasping at straws? Greek 101
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God <G2316 &#952;&#949;&#959;&#769;&#962;> into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord <G1203 &#948;&#949;&#963;&#960;&#959;&#769;&#964;&#951;&#962;> God <G2316 &#952;&#949;&#959;&#769;&#962;>, and our Lord <G2962 &#954;&#965;&#769;&#961;&#953;&#959;&#962;> Jesus Christ.

A purposeful use of the words to show you the distinction God <G2316 &#952;&#949;&#959;&#769;&#962;> and Lord <G1203 &#948;&#949;&#963;&#960;&#959;&#769;&#964;&#951;&#962; ([FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]master) God &#952;&#949;&#959;&#769;&#962;[/FONT][/FONT]> and Lord <G2962 &#954;&#965;&#769;&#961;&#953;&#959;&#962;> Jesus Christ

 

[JLB777]

Jesus Christ is in fact LORD!

Every knee will bow down and worship Him

Every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is YHWH Lord!


JLB

 

[mathetes123]

Who do you believe Jesus is if you do not believe He is God? Are you suggesting He is a man or an angel or other created being?

Still waiting on a response?

 

[Raimi Stranger]

God can only reproduce God.

Man can only reproduce man.

what ????

God doesn't reproduce, God is endlessly the spirit , unchanging ,perfect, ONE [undivided]

God can create man, even create Jesus a body to show us the spirit of one-ness that is Love which is HOW WE KNOW God...

Jesus showed us God by Love, that is all most even can understand , but that is very different from saying God is more than ONE... there is no distinct spirit from God, God says so :-

Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me

so stop pretending Jesus is a god with God, Jesus is God because the spirit of Jesus is God , a man has a spirit which he can accept and so Love or can reject and so sin... but in Jesus and the saints the spirit , God, is not rejected

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1 John 4:16 ... God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

thus the scripture says the saints are gods, begotten sons of God, that is they do not deny the spirit which is God in them which causes them to love, not sin any more...

thus there are MANY persons, sons of God , who are God, images of Jesus son of God NOT THREE

and God is spirit so God's spirit IS God ... there is no separate distinct holy spirit, there is only ONE spirit and it is God, no other...

as at the beginning, Jesus with God is spirit which is God, there are not two Gods and there are not two spirits and Logos is God in the beginning not just with God...

the spirit is NOT a person, not a thing, not an object , it is one endlessness which creates things which thus begin and END... all comes from ONE spirit and when the created ends there is still just one spirit, nothing gained , nothing lost, nothing changed ...

so frankly theology is simply nonsense , one cannot apply experience in words to God who is beyond experience of ALL who do not Love, so beyond almost all men in this world bar a few saints...

 

[yogosans14]

Romans 10:13--Whoever calls upon the name of Jehovah will be saved.

Trinitarians, do you call on the name of Jehovah?

 

[yogosans14]

Jesus Christ is in fact LORD!

Every knee will bow down and worship Him

Every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is YHWH Lord!


JLB

"Lord" is a title, not a name.

 

[Evergreen48]

Who do you believe Jesus is if you do not believe He is God? Are you suggesting He is a man or an angel or other created being?
Still waiting on a response?

Jesus said that he was the Son of God. I will take his word for it. He was a man, and those who saw him had no trouble recognizing him as such.

Was he a created being? I suppose the answer to that question would depend on your definition of 'created'. He was miraculously formed by God via his Spirit, in the womb of his mother, Mary. This 'operation' of God being explained by "let there be" as in Gen. 1:2-3 when it is declared that the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the deep, and God said: "Let there be light and there was light." So too, the Spirit of God moved upon the womb of the woman whom he had chosen, and he said (putting it into our simple language), " Let there be a human embryo, and there was a human embryo, and that embryo grew into the person who was known as Jesus.

He was the "only begotten Son" of God, 'only begotten' meaning nothing more, or less, than he was the only one of his kind. If we have been "born from above (anóthen)", as Jesus says we must be in order to enter into the kingdom of heaven (John 3:3), we have been born of God also, in the same way that Jesus was.

The difference between the rest of the human race and Jesus is that not only was Jesus his Son in that he was born of the Spirit of God, but his flesh and blood body was also his Son because it was in perfect obedience to the Father and never lost that high estate of perfection as all the rest of humanity did. This is what made him truly the Son of God in body as well as Spirit. That is why the voice of God came from heaven on the day of Jesus' baptism saying: "This is my beloved Son IN WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED".

I hope it is okay that I, as a 'non Trinitarian', answered your questions, even though you probably were speaking to some one else?

 

[he-man]

Still waiting on a response?

We are all under the same law of sin and death. Jesus was born under the same law. He was born of woman who was not immortal but who was a sinner, and Jesus was born by a sinful woman therefore he took on the same nature as she had and that all men have. Although he personally who knew no sin; he was of the same nature as his mother Mary had.

Heb 2::14 For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on the seed of Abraham.

Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?