Who believes Jesus is God??

[Phantasman]

John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. NIV

That's a pretty direct communication.

Nor was His faith mere mental assent as yours ends up being. His last cry expressed a terrible reality. Jesus as Son of Man was engulfed by evil as He took upon Himself the sins of the world.

Your views cannot be consist with the Trinity either. You can't divide up the Godhead as you are suggesting.

John
NZ

The Bible says that Jesus could not yet give the Holy Spirit because he was not yet glorified. That happened after his death. Thus he had his restrictions. His unwavering faith got him through, and what he taught us to do as well. He said many times, O you of little faith. He also said that we could do as he does with enough faith.



I stand by my premise.

 

[shturt678]

Jude 5 is translated as LORD יהוה צבאות Yehovah and not as Jesus. Nunbers 26:65 shows God יהוה צבאות Yehovah pronounced death upon those in the wilderness and not Jesus. Jesus is the Son of God and is not God.

2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

πομνησαι δε ϋμας βουλομαι ειδοτας ϋμας παντα οτι κς απαξ λαον εκ γης αιγυπτου σωσας το δευτερον τους μη πιστευσαντας απωλεσε
Codex Sinaiticus

5 But I wish to put you in remembrance, though you already know all things, that the Lord, after having saved the people from the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those that believed not:

Num 26:65 For Jehovah had said of them, They shall surely die in the wilderness. And there was not left a man of them, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.

H3068 YHWH יהוה
yehôvâh yeh-ho-vaw' From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God

Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Agreeing to disagree regarding: I adamantly believe that Jesus = God; however agreeing to agree the "Lord" is the rendering at Jude 5, contextually comports. Have to print this out as probably won't agree to agree with you again for quite awhile. No sarcasm intended.

 

[he-man]

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. mighty God...pretty conclusive unless we believe in several gods...

Is 9:6 Because to us a child is born, to us a son is given to become and the rule shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Protagonist of the Highest, and because of this work of God, The minister of Peace.

The Septuagint has μεγαλης βουλης Αγγελος, “the Messenger of the Great Counsel.” [CLARKE]

Isa 40:10 Behold, Jehovah GOD will come with strength and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

18 To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

 

[Imagican]

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

mighty God...pretty conclusive unless we believe in several gods...

So Peebly,

What you have quoted, according to YOU, states that Jesus will be CALLED: EVERLASTING FATHER. Where in the entirety of scripture, other than in this ONE instance, have YOU found Christ being referred to as "Everlasting Father"?

"Trinity" doesn't even teach that Jesus is 'the FATHER'.

So how do you quote this as some sort of PROOF that Jesus is God, when Christ has NEVER been referred to as 'Everlasting Father'?

Isn't it OBVIOUS that you have a very limited understanding of this very scripture? For if what YOU say it means truly exists, then Christ is to be referred to as EVERLASTING FATHER as well.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[2ducklow]

There's an elephant in this room that everyone is pretending like it doesn't exist. That elephant is that you're all teaching that 3 individuals are one individual or 2 individuals are one individual. Thus you are all dead wrong. And God doesn't like it when someone turns the word of God into a book of nonsense. Don't believe anyone who tells you that you have to belive that 3 individuals are one individual or 2 individuals are one individual or you are not a christian. Don't believe them, God never said it, they say it, and cover their tracks by saying it's a mystery that no one can understand. They made it up, God never said it. You don't have to believe 3 is one to be saved. god never utters such nonsense as 3 is one. god always makes sense in his word. the word of God makes sense not nonsense.

KJV) Nehemiah 8:8 8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

We are to give the sense , not nonsense, of scripture. people understand the sense of sccripture, no one understands the nonsense (3 is one) of scripture.

neh 8.8 doesn't say 'and they gave the nonsense of scripture and no one understood it because it was a mystery.." That is a teaching that is totally opposed to the word of God.

 

[samcarternx]

There's an elephant in this room that everyone is pretending like it doesn't exist. That elephant is that you're all teaching that 3 individuals are one individual or 2 individuals are one individual. So you are all wrong and in denial.
Trinity is 3 individuals that are one individual. anyone who claims Jesus is god is teaching that 2 individuals are one individual. So you are all wrong and making it difficult for nonbelievers to become crhistians. Why? Because non christians don't want to go around saying nonsensical things like 3 individuals are one individual, and all nonchristians know that is what trinity is. Sure in the dark ages nonchristians loved to say nonsensical things like that, but not today. Today nonchristians are logical not illogical. Nonchristians have come out of dark ages thinking and mindset. They don't buy neoplatonic thought, it's nonsense to them. They want to say things tha make sense and are logical. They don't want to say a bunch of nonsensical things and defend it by saying it's a mystery that no one can understand. That is something totally alien to nonchristian thinking.

funny how I could wipe my finger in soot and pick up a diamond with it and say "look at the carbon" and nobody would have any problem understanding that I could be referring to either one or both.

 

[JLB777]

Is man:

1. A body
2. A soul
3. A spirit
4. All of the above

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23


Man functions as one, yet is spirit, soul and body.


Man is created in the image and likeness of God.


Let Us make man in Our image.


As Jesus said - The scripture can not be broken.



JLB

 

[Imagican]

funny how I could wipe my finger in soot and pick up a diamond with it and say "look at the carbon" and nobody would have any problem understanding that I could be referring to either one or both.

untrue. I believe that if this scenario were to take place, I would CLEARLY believe that you were referring to the SOOT. For I DO NOT call diamonds 'carbon'. While diamond is a FORM of carbon, there is a REASON that it is NOT called 'carbon' or SOOT. It is called diamond because it's properties are DIFFERENT than OTHER forms of 'carbon'.

And that is why I do NOT call Jesus God. He is the only begotten of God. He is the SON of God. So why would I even DREAM of calling Him God? He didn't reveal Himself AS God. He revealed Himself AS The Son of God. And that is exactly how I have come to accept Him: Jesus Christ, The Son of God.

I don't NEED to have any deeper understanding of the relationship between God and His Son than that revealed. I ESPECIALLY do not NEED to follow a MAN MADE 'mystery' that STILL remains a mystery no matter how deeply men have tried to explain it.

I ask YOU, what does BEGOTTEN mean? in reference to Christ BEING the 'only begotten', what is the MEANING of the word 'begotten'?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[JLB777]

untrue. I believe that if this scenario were to take place, I would CLEARLY believe that you were referring to the SOOT. For I DO NOT call diamonds 'carbon'. While diamond is a FORM of carbon, there is a REASON that it is NOT called 'carbon' or SOOT. It is called diamond because it's properties are DIFFERENT than OTHER forms of 'carbon'.

And that is why I do NOT call Jesus God. He is the only begotten of God. He is the SON of God. So why would I even DREAM of calling Him God? He didn't reveal Himself AS God. He revealed Himself AS The Son of God. And that is exactly how I have come to accept Him: Jesus Christ, The Son of God.

I don't NEED to have any deeper understanding of the relationship between God and His Son than that revealed. I ESPECIALLY do not NEED to follow a MAN MADE 'mystery' that STILL remains a mystery no matter how deeply men have tried to explain it.

I ask YOU, what does BEGOTTEN mean? in reference to Christ BEING the 'only begotten', what is the MEANING of the word 'begotten'?

Blessings,

MEC

Ok, what is Jesus then.

If He is the only begotten of God.

What is He?

God can only reproduce God.

Man can only reproduce man.

Because He is the Only begotten of God He always existed within God and was always "with" God and therefore is fully God because God is Holy.

Holy means pure.

Holy means only of one property, PURE.

Holy means not mixed together with something else.

Jesus is God, was always God and will always be God.

God the Son, the only begotten of the Father.

The firstborn over all of creation.

Pure God, Holy God.

JLB

 

[Imagican]

Ok, what is Jesus then.

If He is the only begotten of God.

What is He?

God can only reproduce God.

Once again, UNTRUE. God can DO as God deems FIT. God MADE man. So God can MAKE whatever He chooses to MAKE. Whether it be MAN or a SON.

Think about how ridiculous you statement truly is. For you SAY that you believe that God is 'all powerful', 'our Creator', and then say that God CAN ONLY................................ Do you not recognize the futility of such a belief? That such a belief is in a 'god' that is of YOUR OWN DESIGN? For the God that I love and trust is an ALL powerful God. The ONLY things that He CANNOT DO are things that are against His very nature. As in, He cannot lie. He cannot NOT be God. He cannot DIE, (cease to exist), etc............

But so far as MAKING, (begetting a son), how could one believing Him ALL powerful SAY or BELIEVE that God CANNOT 'make' whatsoever He chooses so long is it is NOT opposed to BEING God.

Man can only reproduce man.

Because He is the Only begotten of God He always existed within God and was always "with" God and therefore is fully God because God is Holy.

Now, you SAY this, but do you even understand what you are trying to say? In the FIRST half of your sentence you STATE that Christ was 'begotten of God', and then in the next half you try to state that 'begotten' means something DIFFERENT than what 'begotten' TRULY means. You indicate that YOU believe that 'begotten' MEANS: 'always with'. Yet there is NO dictionary on the planet that will give you such a definition for 'begotten'.

Now, I CHALLENGE you to go to a Catholic source of information concerning THEIR 'definition' of 'begotten', (which IS 'made up' for NO OTHER source of information regarding definitions of words ON THIS PLANET offers a definition as that of the Catholic Church concerning the word 'begotten'.

Yet HERE is what 'begotten' MEANS:

be·got·ten

[bih-got-n]
verb a past participle of beget.

Related forms self-be·got·ten, adjective
well-be·got·ten, adjective

Dictionary.com Unabridged
be·get

[bih-get] Show IPA
verb (used with object), be·got or ( Archaic ) be·gat; be·got·ten or be·got; be·get·ting. 1. (especially of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).

2. to cause; produce as an effect: a belief that power begets power.

Origin:
before 1000; Middle English begeten (see be-, get); replacing Middle English biyeten, Old English begetan; cognate with Gothic bigitan, Old High German bigezzan

Related forms be·get·ter, noun

Synonyms
1. spawn, sire, breed, father. 2. occasion, engender, effect, generate.

Holy means pure.

Holy means only of one property, PURE.

Holy means not mixed together with something else.

And we are told that WE are to BE Holy JUST as our Heavenly Father is Holy. So what's your point?

Jesus is God, was always God and will always be God.

Ok. Now SHOW us that this is according to SCRIPTURE instead of just you stating what you BELIEVE.

God the Son, the only begotten of the Father.

And here you go again, placing your OWN words into a statement as if you are quoting 'scripture'. But in truth, there is NO scripture that offers such words. Not ONCE in the entire Bible is the term: God the Son EVER used. Yet you state it as if it is a 'given'. Like it IS offered in scripture.

The firstborn over all of creation.

NOW yer shakin'. This IS scripture, (sort of). Firstborn of EVERY creature.

Pure God, Holy God.

JLB

Now, since you would like to help us understand Jesus AS God, please answer a couple of questions:

1. What does BEGOTTEN 'truly' mean?

2. What does 'Firstborn of every creature' mean?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[he-man]

So Peebly,

What you have quoted, according to YOU, states that Jesus will be CALLED: EVERLASTING FATHER. Where in the entirety of scripture, other than in this ONE instance, have YOU found Christ being referred to as "Everlasting Father"?

"Trinity" doesn't even teach that Jesus is 'the FATHER'.

So how do you quote this as some sort of PROOF that Jesus is God, when Christ has NEVER been referred to as 'Everlasting Father'?

Isn't it OBVIOUS that you have a very limited understanding of this very scripture? For if what YOU say it means truly exists, then Christ is to be referred to as EVERLASTING FATHER as well.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[JLB777]

Now, since you would like to help us understand Jesus AS God, please answer a couple of questions:

1. What does BEGOTTEN 'truly' mean?

2. What does 'Firstborn of every creature' mean?

Blessings,

MEC

You haven't addressed what I have said at all.

You have only stated that this doesn't mean this or this doesn't mean that.

What did God beget.

What did He reproduce.

Why would God reproduce something other that what He is.

God is God and therefore only beget God.

God hates the intermingling and reproducing of mixed species.

See Genesis 6.

Yet you would have us believe that God did not beget God, rather He beget something else.

God created man. He beget God.

God "became" flesh, which indicates He was something else before He "became" flesh.

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

Sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong.


JLB

 

[Phantasman]

You haven't addressed what I have said at all.

You have only stated that this doesn't mean this or this doesn't mean that.

What did God beget.

What did He reproduce.

Why would God reproduce something other that what He is.

God is God and therefore only beget God.

God hates the intermingling and reproducing of mixed species.

See Genesis 6.

Yet you would have us believe that God did not beget God, rather He beget something else.

God created man. He beget God.

God "became" flesh, which indicates He was something else before He "became" flesh.

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

Sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong.


JLB

Yet no man has seen God the Father, nor have the angels. Timothy 3:16 is correct. How can God be seen and not seen if he is the same?

 

[Johnnz]

Yet no man has seen God the Father, nor have the angels. Timothy 3:16 is correct. How can God be seen and not seen if he is the same?

Jesus as Son of God and Son of Man. Also His own words "If you have seen me you have seen the Father".

John
NZ

 

[Phantasman]

Jesus as Son of God and Son of Man/ Also Hi sown words "If you have seen me you have seen the Father".

John
NZ

Correct. The son knows the Father. We cannot comprehend the Father. But we can comprehend his son, who became like us and taught us and died like we are going to die..........physically. He is the Way (to God). He is the truth (given to us by God). He is the life (that we receive from God as he did with his son). But he is not God the Father, only a part of him we can comprehend and understand.

God the Father is much more than we tend to think we "see" him as.

 

[he-man]

Jesus as Son of God and Son of Man/ Also Hi sown words "If you have seen me you have seen the Father".

John
NZ

Re 3:14 And to announce to the congregation of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the *Incunabula creation of God;

 

[Johnnz]

Correct. The son knows the Father. We cannot comprehend the Father. But we can comprehend his son, who became like us and taught us and died like we are going to die..........physically. He is the Way (to God). He is the truth (given to us by God). He is the life (that we receive from God as he did with his son). But he is not God the Father, only a part of him we can comprehend and understand.

God the Father is much more than we tend to think we "see" him as.

Which is the view the early church rejected. They never considered God with two agents acting on His behalf but separate from Him.

John
NZ

 

[he-man]

Which is the view the early church rejected. They never considered God with two agents acting on His behalf but separate from Him.

John
NZ

 

[shturt678]

Re 3:14 And to announce to the congregation of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the *Incunabula creation of God;

Rev.3:14, "...declares the Amen, the Witness, the Faithful and Genuine One, the Beginning of the Creation of God." my rendition of course. Let's do a paradigm shift, to it's all Koine to me, from that, forward to the English.

Rev.3:14, the 3rd apposition follows, "the Beginning of the Creation of God," which recalls Co.1:15-18, especially Arxe, "Beginning," and "First-born of all Creation." This, unfortunately, is not the most explicit reference to the Pre-existence as God that is found in Revelation.

Not only do we need to shift from Latin 101 to Greek 101 to IIPet.1:20, 21, e.g., Rev.1:8 and "the Son of God" in Rev.2:18, to say not more ... thank you for understanding my point he-man, always enjoy working with you. The fact that Christ is the eternal God-man Lord is plain from everything that Revelation reveals. This is really what the incunabula is, i.e., truth of Revelation to you and a lot of other Premills. veiled. This began in the "infancy" of the Gospel and continues till today. My word of encouragement to you, others, of the former, also make a paradigm shift from the incunabula, chiliasm, to my and other's view of a-chiliasm then we both can see and realize He is the uncreated Son of God Who is as eternal as the Father eye-balling Jn.1:3 with you. All creation exists, including my every heartbeat, only with reference to Him otherwise it would not even exist and continue to exist, including me. Always a pleasure working with you ... come on over to our camp of Amillennialist ... move away from Papias.

 

[peebly63]

as Jesus is one in the same it makes no difference...lol