Who believes Jesus is God??

[Paul1771]

Most christians today, well I wouldn't say most I would say 95% of all think and say Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit hence why it's called the trinity. Why ppl believe like that? If the scripture is very clear, Christians just give a bad interpretation to the bible.

 

[JLB777]

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

JLB

 

[jehoiakim]

I am not sure I understand your point, are you trying to attack the theological concept of the trinity? Are you saying that the scripture does not allow for us to believe that God is multifaceted? If you are I think you are oversimplifying the matter and what trinitarians believe. I think you need to be more specific in what your concerns are and I also think you need to look at the historical alternatives to trinitarianism and why they were considered Heresy. While I would say I was never 100% comfortable with orthodox christian teaching in the trinity it is fare less heretical and biblicaly consistent then some of the other theories out there.

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

Most christians today, well I wouldn't say most I would say 95% of all think and say Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit hence why it's called the trinity. Why ppl believe like that? If the scripture is very clear, Christians just give a bad interpretation to the bible.

Because the Bible in numerous places (including Jesus himself) , declared that Jesus is the God of Creation...the great 'I AM' . In addition to the Holy Spirit being God as well , per The Bible.

Where you aware that the Bible clearly teaches that , or not ?

 

[BFine]

What is your explanation for these verses:

John 6:27
“Do not work for food that perishes, but for food that endures for the eternal life that The Son of Man will give you, for This One has The Father sealed as God with his seal of approval.”

Romans 9:5
And the Patriarchs; and from them The Messiah appeared in the flesh, who is The God Who is over all, to Whom are praises and blessings to the eternity of eternities, amen.

2 Corinthians 6:16
What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols?
For we are the temple of the living God.
As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.

1 John 5:20
And we know that The Son of God has come and he has given us a mind to know The True One and to be in The True One- in his Son, Yeshua The Messiah. This One is The True God and The Life Eternal.

John 8:58
Yeshua said to them: “Timeless truth I speak to you: Before Abraham would exist, I AM THE LIVING GOD.

 

[Angeldove97]

Thread has been moved from the Formal Debate forum to Unorthodox Theology forum. The thread was moved because the opening post is discussing if the interpretation of the Trinity is a good interpretation.

CF's Statement of Faith supports the belief in the Trinity- Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

 

[RadicalDissenter]

Most christians today, well I wouldn't say most I would say 95% of all think and say Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit hence why it's called the trinity. Why ppl believe like that? If the scripture is very clear, Christians just give a bad interpretation to the bible.

They believe this because of a very long Catholic (and "Orthodox") theological tradition. A tradition that was uncritically received in mainstream Protestantism too (unlike some other and less important doctrines to which the Reformers disagreed).

This tradition is promoted not only by preaching, but also by intentional mistranslations of many Biblical verses. When they read a distorted version of the Bible and rely on what they have been taught in their churches, this belief is inevitable, unless someone feels in his heart that something is wrong and decides to consider other possibilities with an open mind.

The history of Christianity is also presented through a Trinitarian prism.

The doctrine of Trinity is also kept because of fear: the fear that you may somehow sin against the most holy of all elements of the official and accepted Christianity.

It is also kept by attacking those who dare to believe otherwise. If you dare to confess that Jesus is not God, many zealous "orthodox" believers may call you by the names of other "heretics", ancient and modern, like Arian or JW, though neither Arius nor the JWs are unique in their belief that the Son is not God.

 

[Soulgazer]

I believe that Jesus was a man, and Christ part of the Godhead.

 

[RadicalDissenter]

I believe that Jesus was a man, and Christ part of the Godhead.

Actually, this is essentially the same as the "orthodox" belief. They will not put it the way you did, but when you ask Trinitarians about their concepts, it becomes clear that they see a difference between the man and the God in Jesus Christ (corresponding to your distinction between Jesus and Christ), a difference they express by talking about human and divine nature in him. Although nominally believed to be one and the same person, his divinity is perceived as not affected by human experiences like fatigue, need, suffering and death. But there can be no actual being who is simultaneously mortal and immortal, finite and infinite, all-knowing and with limited knowledge. So this dichotomy between the fully divine and the fully human, that makes him two distinct persons, is inevitable for all sorts of belief in a Christ who is God Himself. It is a dichotomy that virtually makes all the deeds and words of Christ told in the Gospels meaningless. It's no wonder that the most notable precursor of the trinitarian theology declared the absurdity of his religion to be the very reason to believe it.

(I know, you have some other, "Gnostic", scriptures, so you may have some scriptural reason to believe so. But I know about some "Gnostic" sects that believed that Christ was Michael the Archangel and NOT God and also talked about the "angel of the Holy Spirit" - which means that only the Father is God.)

 

[Enkil]

They believe this because of a very long Catholic (and "Orthodox") theological tradition.

Actually, we learned it from the Bible.

tradition is promoted not only by preaching, but also by intentional mistranslations of many Biblical verses. When they read a distorted version of the Bible and rely on what they have been taught in their churches, this belief is inevitable, unless someone feels in his heart that something is wrong and decides to consider other possibilities with an open mind.

Good luck demonstrating any of that.

 

[Soulgazer]

Actually, this is essentially the same as the "orthodox" belief. They will not put it the way you did, but when you ask Trinitarians about their concepts, it becomes clear that they see a difference between the man and the God in Jesus Christ, a difference they express by talking about human and divine nature in him. Although nominally believed to be one and the same person, his divinity is perceived as not affected by human experiences like fatigue, need, suffering and death. But there can be no actual being who is simultaneously mortal and immortal, finite and infinite, all-knowing and with limited knowledge, so this dichotomy between the fully divine and the fully human is inevitable for all sorts of belief in a Christ who is God Himself. It is a dichotomy that virtually makes all the deeds and words of Christ told in the Gospels meaningless.

(I know, you have some other, "Gnostic", scriptures, so you may have some scriptural reason to believe so. But I know about some "Gnostic" sects that believed that Christ was Michael the Archangel and NOT God and also talked about the "angel of the Holy Spirit" - which means that only the Father is God.)

Yes, there were all kinds of beliefs and opinions, and we haven't really kept still. I think that which differentiates us from the trinitarians is that we don't try to put a limit on the forms or divisions that God may take. We consider Sophia or Wisdom, The Holy Spirit, Zoe or Life, The spirit of Truth, Christ, Father, Mother et al to all be aspects of the Monad or one God. "Angels" are not something that we would necessarily think are a good entity, as we don't consider them particuarily trustworthy or even literal, but a literary sign that the author is writing about a visionary experience.

 

[Defensor Christi]

They believe this because of a very long Catholic (and "Orthodox") theological tradition.

Strangely enough...I agree with this. I also believe Jesus IS God...but, I would add that this belief was "hammered" out and taught, as a result of, Catholic Theology/Ecumenical Councils...coupled and backed by the clear teaching os Holy Scripture.

Imagine that...Scripture AND Tradition working side by side...strange concept for some.

 

[RadicalDissenter]

Strangely enough...I agree with this. I also believe Jesus IS God...but, I would add that this belief was "hammered" out and taught, as a result of, Catholic Theology/Ecumenical Councils...coupled and backed by the clear teaching os Holy Scripture.

Imagine that...Scripture AND Tradition working side by side...strange concept for some.

I don't need to do any effort to imagine that, since I personally experienced it. It works this way: when you read the Bible through the interpretations given by tradition, it seems very natural to believe that God is a Trinity and Christ is God. And this particular belief is accepted because of the authority of tradition not only in your church, but in the Protestant and Eastern Orthodox churches too. For many it is a matter of following authority, but I personally found it to be a matter of choice.

Actually, they don't work side by side, because Scripture and tradition are not in the same category, they are two different kinds of things. Tradition functions as your "eyes" and Scripture is what you look at. I prefer my own (in)sight, the sight that God gives naturally and by grace, and NOT the old and popular artificial vision of human tradition. This is the choice: EITHER what God gives me by grace, without any use of intimidation or propaganda, OR what people try to make me believe, using metaphysical threats, distortions of sense, and references to the authority of church institutions, the majority of Christians, the length of time it has been held "orthodox", the "orthodox" translations, etc. How one views things is crucial, be it the Bible or anything else.

 

[Evergreen48]

Most christians today, well I wouldn't say most I would say 95% of all think and say Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit hence why it's called the trinity. Why ppl believe like that? If the scripture is very clear, Christians just give a bad interpretation to the bible.

The Scriptures teach for sure that Jesus is the Son of God. Dare we go further than that, or should we leave it there? I leave it there. I believe that he is the Son of God, and trust him as my Savior and Redeemer. I believe that it is for his sake, and for his sake only, that God hears my pleas for forgiveness and for cleansing from all unrighteousness.

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

JLB

A more likely translation of 1 Tim. 3:16 is as follows:

"A pillar and foundation of the truth, and confessedly great, is the secret of Piety; he who was manifested in flesh, was justified in Spirit, was seen by messengers was proclaimed among nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory." -- (Emphatic Diaglott - Original Greek Text of the New Testament)

Nearly all of the ancient MSS., and all the versions have "He Who" instead of "GOD" in this passage

 

[Enkil]

The Scriptures teach for sure that Jesus is the Son of God. Dare we go further than that, or should we leave it there? I leave it there. I believe that he is the Son of God, and trust him as my Savior and Redeemer. I believe that it is for his sake, and for his sake only, that God hears my pleas for forgiveness and for cleansing from all unrighteousness.



A more likely translation of 1 Tim. 3:16 is as follows:

"A pillar and foundation of the truth, and confessedly great, is the secret of Piety; he who was manifested in flesh, was justified in Spirit, was seen by messengers was proclaimed among nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory." -- (Emphatic Diaglott - Original Greek Text of the New Testament)

Nearly all of the ancient MSS., and all the versions have "He Who" instead of "GOD" in this passage

Here is from Clarke's commentary of the Bible on this subject:

"The insertion of, Θεος for ὁς, or ὁς for Θεος, may be easily accounted for. In ancient times the Greek was all written in capitals, for the common Greek character is comparatively of modern date. In these early times words of frequent recurrence were written contractedly, thus: for πατηρ, πρ; Θεος, θς; Κυριος, κς· Ιησους, ιης, etc. This is very frequent in the oldest MSS., and is continually recurring in the Codex Bexae, and Codex Alexandrinus. If, therefore, the middle stroke of the Θ, in ΘΣ, happened to be faint, or obliterated, and the dash above not very apparent, both of which I have observed in ancient MSS., then ΘΣ, the contraction for Θεος, God, might be mistaken for ΟΣ, which or who; and vice versa. This appears to have been the case in the Codex Alexandrinus, in this passage. To me there is ample reason to believe that the Codex Alexandrinus originally read ΘΣ, God, in this place; but the stroke becoming faint by length of time and injudicious handling, of which the MS. in this place has had a large proportion, some person has supplied the place, most reprehensibly, with a thick black line. This has destroyed the evidence of this MS., as now it can neither be quoted pro or con, though it is very likely that the person who supplied the ink line, did it from a conscientious conviction that ΘΣ was the original reading of this MS. I examined this MS. about thirty years ago, and this was the conviction that rested then on my mind. I have seen the MS. several times since, and have not changed my opinion. The enemies of the Deity of Christ have been at as much pains to destroy the evidence afforded by the common reading in support of this doctrine as if this text were the only one by which it can be supported; they must be aware that Joh_1:1, and Joh_1:14, proclaim the same truth; and that in those verses there is no authority to doubt the genuineness of the reading. We read, therefore, God was manifested in the flesh, and I cannot see what good sense can be taken out of, the Gospel was manifested in the flesh; or, the mystery of godliness was manifested in the flesh. After seriously considering this subject in every point of light, I hold with the reading in the commonly received text."

 

[Phantasman]

Most christians today, well I wouldn't say most I would say 95% of all think and say Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit hence why it's called the trinity. Why ppl believe like that? If the scripture is very clear, Christians just give a bad interpretation to the bible.

God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one as in one mind. I don't believe they are the same being. Jesus said the disciples were one with Jesus and God as well. So he issued the Holy Spirit to them when he visited them after the resurrection.

Jesus said his father was greater than him, which is enough for me to believe they are not the same. At the crucifixion, Jesus asked why he had forsaken him as well, a sign that there were two entities separated for a time. And why would Jesus ask the cup to pass from him, if he had the total control of Gods plan of salvation?

 

[Enkil]

God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one as in one mind.

The scripture teaches that they, in fact, are the same God, the one and only.

Joh 1:1-3;10;14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2) The same was in the beginning with God. (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made... (10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not... (14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Joh 8:56-59 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. (57) Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? (58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (59) Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

The proof is so strong that, even if the enemies of Christ's divinity manage to shed doubt on one or two verses, there are dozens more to use. And the foundation of this doctrine isn't in the New Testament, it goes back to the Old. The force of the Trinity's argument is so irresistible, that the opponents of Christ's divinity must flee from the entirety of the scriptures as much as possible.

Jesus said his father was greater than him, which is enough for me to believe they are not the same. At the crucifixion, Jesus asked why he had forsaken him as well, a sign that there were two entities separated for a time. And why would Jesus ask the cup to pass from him, if he had the total control of Gods plan of salvation?

His speech and suffering on the cross, itself, were predicted in great detail.

Mat 27:43-46 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. (44) The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth. (45) Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. (46) And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Psa 22:1-8 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? (2) O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. (3) But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel. (4) Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them. (5) They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded. (6) But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. (7) All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, (8) He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

Note the bold text. If you read the entire chapter of both, you would see that Psalm 22 tells the story of the crucifixion.

Christ certainly did experience great suffering, rejection and grief in His life. It was predicted that He would do so. But it does not mean that Christ is not, Himself, "the Word made flesh." As the incarnate Son, Christ utterly submitted Himself to the will of the Father. The fact of the matter is, Christ was fully man and fully God. He lived the perfect human life, yes, but He experienced all of our sufferings, all of our griefs, all of our temptations, conquering over them and yet, ultimately, being made a Curse for us on the cross, taking on the full weight of the wrath of God against sin.

 

[Xpistis sopheiaX]

""Angels" are not something that we would necessarily think are a good entity, as we don't consider them particuarily trustworthy"

SG, I've seen you mention this before. I'm pretty curious, what is this based on?

 

[Phantasman]

The scripture teaches that they, in fact, are the same God, the one and only.

Joh 1:1-3;10;14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2) The same was in the beginning with God. (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made... (10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not... (14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Joh 8:56-59 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. (57) Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? (58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (59) Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

The proof is so strong that, even if the enemies of Christ's divinity manage to shed doubt on one or two verses, there are dozens more to use. And the foundation of this doctrine isn't in the New Testament, it goes back to the Old. The force of the Trinity's argument is so irresistible, that the opponents of Christ's divinity must flee from the entirety of the scriptures as much as possible.



His speech and suffering on the cross, itself, were predicted in great detail.

Mat 27:43-46 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. (44) The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth. (45) Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. (46) And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Psa 22:1-8 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? (2) O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. (3) But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel. (4) Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them. (5) They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded. (6) But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. (7) All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, (8) He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

Note the bold text. If you read the entire chapter of both, you would see that Psalm 22 tells the story of the crucifixion.

Christ certainly did experience great suffering, rejection and grief in His life. It was predicted that He would do so. But it does not mean that Christ is not, Himself, "the Word made flesh." As the incarnate Son, Christ utterly submitted Himself to the will of the Father. The fact of the matter is, Christ was fully man and fully God. He lived the perfect human life, yes, but He experienced all of our sufferings, all of our griefs, all of our temptations, conquering over them and yet, ultimately, being made a Curse for us on the cross, taking on the full weight of the wrath of God against sin.

You're always right.

 

[Soulgazer]

""Angels" are not something that we would necessarily think are a good entity, as we don't consider them particuarily trustworthy"

SG, I've seen you mention this before. I'm pretty curious, what is this based on?

They are created beings that come from multiple places, sometimes just from man's imagination.

Now the prime parent Yaldabaoth, since he possessed great authorities, created heavens for each of his offspring through verbal expression - created them beautiful, as dwelling places - and in each heaven he created great glories, seven times excellent. Thrones and mansions and temples, and also chariots and virgin spirits up to an invisible one and their glories, each one has these in his heaven; mighty armies of gods and lords and angels and archangels - countless myriads - so that they might serve. The account of these matters you will find in a precise manner in the first Account of Oraia.

~On the Origin of the World

On account of the reality of the authorities, (inspired) by the spirit of the father of truth, the great apostle - referring to the "authorities of the darkness" - told us that "our contest is not against flesh and blood; rather, the authorities of the universe and the spirits of wickedness." I have sent this (to you) because you inquire about the reality of the authorities. Their chief is blind; because of his power and his ignorance and his arrogance he said, with his power, "It is I who am God; there is none apart from me." When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And this speech got up to incorruptibility; then there was a voice that came forth from incorruptibility, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" - which is, "god of the blind."
His thoughts became blind. And, having expelled his power - that is, the blasphemy he had spoken - he pursued it down to chaos and the abyss, his mother, at the instigation of Pistis Sophia. And she established each of his offspring in conformity with its power - after the pattern of the realms that are above, for by starting from the invisible world the visible world was invented.~Hypostasis of the Archons

"And the arrogant one took a power from his mother. For he was ignorant, thinking that there existed no other except his mother alone. And when he saw the multitude of the angels which he had created, then he exalted himself above them.~Secret John