Who are the "two witnesses" in Revelation 11:3-6 ?

seventysevens

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Rapture Wimpism

Any student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.

In the NT, we see in the book of Acts a complete account of how the disciples and Christ's followers were hated and persecuted as Jesus had predicted (Matthew 24:9). In Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). In Acts 5, they were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41). In Acts 7, Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). In Acts 8:1 "There was a great persecution against the church." In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into prison. In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, and brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Paul confessed that prior to his conversion, he had "imprisoned and beaten in every synagogue" those who believed in Christ.

There was no lack of tribulation for the NT Church.

But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture wimps.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.

The following partial enumeration of NT tribulation references...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

...makes it clear that there is no room for “rapture wimps” in the Christian Church. In solidarity with other believers in parts of the world who suffer tribulation even as we read this, we must be prepared to, as did and do these, “fight to win the prize and sail through bloody seas”, as we see the hymnwriter further pen.


God has promised...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.


But the promise is only for those who resolve not to be “rapture wimps.”

[Staff edit].

In no way shape or form did I say that people would not go through tribulation , you simply misinterpreted what you read! Mankind has been going through tribulation since the day Adam disobeyed God and was removed from the Garden. You need to learn the distinct and Major difference between common ongoing tribulation that all people will endure and the One Time event called the Great Tribulation , just because you see the word tribulation does not mean it has to refer to the rapture or Great Trib , if it does not contain the word Great in reference to tribulation as Jesus spoke of the do not consider any tribulation in reference to the rapture , as it shows lack of understanding of the topic , Any student with only a cursory knowledge of the rapture that see the phrase "we shall not all sleep......" should instantly know what exactly what scripture is referenced, For those who missed the point completely here is the exact words used by Paul in which I refereed to.
1 Corinthians15:51-52King James Version (KJV)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The word moment in the Greek is 'atomos' which means 'one atom of time' "that cannot be cut in two, or divided, it is indivisible."
 
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Quasar92

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Try to ignore the words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10, if you can...



.


The following is posted from 1 Thess.5, in which I have inserted parenthetics to provide a lesson for you on the proper literal interpretation of the passage.

The Day of the Lord



1Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we [BELIEVERS] do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people [NON-BELIEVERS] are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers and sisters, [BELIEVERS] are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You [BELIEVERS] are all children of the light and children of the day. We [BELIEVERS] do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep [NON-BELIEVERS], but let us be awake and sober.7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night [NON-BELIEVERS]. 8But since we [BELIEVERS] belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us [BELIEVERS] to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

Which is in complete harmony with 1 Thess.4.


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BABerean2

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The following is posted from 1 Thess.5, in which I have inserted parenthetics to provide a lesson for you on the proper literal interpretation of the passage.

The Day of the Lord



1Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we [BELIEVERS] do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people [NON-BELIEVERS] are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers and sisters, [BELIEVERS] are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You [BELIEVERS] are all children of the light and children of the day. We [BELIEVERS] do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep [NON-BELIEVERS], but let us be awake and sober.7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night [NON-BELIEVERS]. 8But since we [BELIEVERS] belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us [BELIEVERS] to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

Which is in complete harmony with 1 Thess.4.


Quasar92

You are correct.

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that chapter 5 is in harmony with chapter 4.
As a matter of fact they are connected.
The timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is found at the beginning of chapter 5, on the Day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief.
Based on 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, it is clearly a Second Coming event.


This is confirmed by the word "But" which connects the two chapters.

The pre-trib doctrine only works by trying to disconnect the two chapters and insert a non-existent trip back to heaven in the passage.

Based on thousands of pages of commentary and sermons, no American pastor taught a pre-trib removal of the Church at the time of the Revolutionary War.


.
 
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seventysevens

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[Staff edit].

While there are symbols and imagery most of it is well defined to what it means in a literal sense so it is not hard to understand , but it does take some time studying to see what it really says , like basic math compared to algebra and more advanced math , some people will not venture past the basic arithmetic , others go on to algebra and quantum physics , anyone can learn algebra and quantum physics but it requires more time and study to learn it , the same for Revelation and other prophecy , though there are people who misapply the intended meaning . Sad thing on you tube sometimes people start out on the right track then go way off track which results in people who would of tried to learn it , not even try
 
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seventysevens

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It only takes a few verses of scripture to show the pretrib viewpoint to be in error.

Revelation 12:11, kills the pretrib doctrine all by itself.

.
Revelation 12:11 is not about the rapture , simply overcoming evil through the blood of Jesus.

[Staff edit].

 
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Quasar92

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You are correct.

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that chapter 5 is in harmony with chapter 4.
As a matter of fact they are connected.
The timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is found at the beginning of chapter 5, on the Day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief.
Based on 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, it is clearly a Second Coming event.


This is confirmed by the word "But" which connects the two chapters.

The pre-trib doctrine only works by trying to disconnect the two chapters and insert a non-existent trip back to heaven in the passage.

Based on thousands of pages of commentary and sermons, no American pastor taught a pre-trib removal of the Church at the time of the Revolutionary War.


.


1 Thess.5:9 is an amplification of 1 Thess.1:10 in which reference is to Jesus taking the Church off the earth to our Father in heaven, as recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. BEFORE the Day of the Lord/Jacob's trouble in Jer.30:7/the 70th Week of Dan.9:27.

Which is what Paul meant by the Lord Jesus coming, The church is ready and waiting for His coming for us. The non-believer is impervious to it and will be asleep when He comes as a thief in the night. Not that it matters for them, because they are going to be left behind anyway.

The second coming of the Lord, is at the end of the Day of the Lord, in Rev.10:11-21, when Jesus returns WITH HIS CHURCH from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7-8, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, in verse 14. Jesus ends the tribulation at that point

Those are the Scriptural end time events, yet to take place.


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David Kent

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1 Thess.5:9 is an amplification of 1 Thess.1:10 in which reference is to Jesus taking the Church off the earth to our Father in heaven, as recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. BEFORE the Day of the Lord/Jacob's trouble in Jer.30:7/the 70th Week of Dan.9:27.

Which is what Paul meant by the Lord Jesus coming, The church is ready and waiting for His coming for us. The non-believer is impervious to it and will be asleep when He comes as a thief in the night. Not that it matters for them, because they are going to be left behind anyway.

The second coming of the Lord, is at the end of the Day of the Lord, in Rev.10:11-21, when Jesus returns WITH HIS CHURCH from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7-8, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, in verse 14. Jesus ends the tribulation at that point

Those are the Scriptural end time events, yet to take place.


Quasar92
  • 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Just the opposite to what you teach.

1.Falling away, apostasy.
While there are symbols and imagery most of it is well defined to what it means in a literal sense so it is not hard to understand , but it does take some time studying to see what it really says , like basic math compared to algebra and more advanced math , some people will not venture past the basic arithmetic , others go on to algebra and quantum physics , anyone can learn algebra and quantum physics but it requires more time and study to learn it , the same for Revelation and other prophecy , though there are people who misapply the intended meaning . Sad thing on you tube sometimes people start out on the right track then go way off track which results in people who would of tried to learn it , not even try

That began in the early church and gathered pace rapidly after Constantine.
2.The man of sin revealed,
3. Our gathering together unto Him.
 
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Quasar92

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  • 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Just the opposite to what you teach.

1.Falling away, apostasy.


That began in the early church and gathered pace rapidly after Constantine.
2.The man of sin revealed,
3. Our gathering together unto Him.


1 Thess.2:3 is not about a falling away or an apostasy, for the context it is in, but rather, a DEPARTURE of the Church. Reinforced in verse 7, where the Church is TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. Review the following translation history of it:

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign here on earth].

The above explains the present day mistranslation of bibles using the terms: apostasy; falling away and rebellion, instead of the original term, departure, in 2 Thess.2:3. Restated in verse 7 by Paul, with the restrainer being taken out of the way. Meaning, the agent for the Holy Spirit here on earth, the Church, identified as the restrainer. The passage refers to the rapture of the Church, NOT a falling away.


Quasar92
 
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jgr

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1 Thess.2:3 is not about a falling away or an apostasy, for the context it is in, but rather, a DEPARTURE of the Church. Reinforced in verse 7, where the Church is TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. Review the following translation history of it:

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign here on earth].

The above explains the present day mistranslation of bibles using the terms: apostasy; falling away and rebellion, instead of the original term, departure, in 2 Thess.2:3. Restated in verse 7 by Paul, with the restrainer being taken out of the way. Meaning, the agent for the Holy Spirit here on earth, the Church, identified as the restrainer. The passage refers to the rapture of the Church, NOT a falling away.


Quasar92
The original manuscript containing 2 Thess. 2:3 was written in Greek.

Greeks understand Greek.

Some of the links below are no longer active.

From Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3:

How do Greek Christians interpret 2 Thess 2:3?

I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy". The post-trib Greeks use it to support their case that Yeshua won't return until Armageddon and there is no pre-trib rapture. I have yet to see a pre-trib Greek quote it; they have stayed away from this passage so far.

But here is one web site, originally written in Greek, analyzing this text...

"The apostacy, a sign of the coming End Times, is mentioned by the Apostle Paul in II Thessalonians. The tribulations will not happen "Unless the Apostacy come first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed"...The apostacy is called a sign of the times...The apostacy will somehow lead to the Antichrist and the Antichrist will be a product of apostacy, or rather the termination thereof....The apostacy will be expressed primarily as a general discount of morals and increase in wickdeness and exploitation....the legalization of abortion, prostitution, adultery, inappropriate contentography, homosexualty, and promoting euthanasia are all examples of this trend."
(English translation of excerpts from Η «αποστασία» ως σημείο των καιρών )

Note that he is open as to how the connection is made; Whether apostacy is the cause, effect, or both. But you can't replace the word "apostacy" here with "rapture" and make any sense of what is being said. If "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 meant rapture and not apostacy, a Greek speaking Christian would not be saying this to other Greek speaking Christians. Yes, it makes sense for a Greek speaking Christian to say this to other Greek speaking Christians if "apostacia" means "apostacy", like nearly every Greek dictionary tells and and like nearly every English translation has translated this.

This is just one of many similar examples. At http://www.gec.gr/beee/Kyrigmata/2007/2007-08-12.htm is a Greek Christians who uses the obvious fact that "apostacia" could NOT mean rapture to argue for the post-trib position by saying,

He Quotes 2 Thess 2 and says, "According to the most widespread version of the doctrine of the secret rapture ... Since the church leaves in the rapture ... you will not see him revealed, because you are already in heaven. And of course, the question arises: What is wrong? The mistake is that the text before us does not support this scenario ... You will see the apostasy, then you will see the man of sin, and then will come the presence of the Lord." (English translation of http://www.gec.gr/beee/Kyrigmata/2007/2007-08-12.htm)

The overall flow of the logic here is that if the rapture is pre-trib, we would expect to see "Rapture" in 2 Thess 2:3 where we see "apostacy", but we don't. If "apostacia" even COULD mean "rapture" in Greek, this argument would not make any sense. It is only because "apostacia" means "apostacy" and CANNOT mean "rapture" to Greek speakers that this person is making this argument.

Here's another example;

  • ""the apostasy will come first, revealing the man of sin, the son of perdition ..." (Ap. Paul Thess. Vv.3) ie. will be preceded by the apostacy of the coming of Antichrist, and indeed this is the main church sign. Already in 2000, the Church faces too many heretical groups apostacizing from it..." (English translation of ΝΕΑ ΤΑΞΗ - ΟΙΚΟΥΜΕΝΙΣΜΟΣ - ΟΡΘΟΔΟΞΙΑ )
I was unable to find a single example of a Greek speaking Christian, writing in Greek, advocating a different interpretation than what these 3 men agree on.
 
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Quasar92

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[Staff edit].

FYI, the verse you quoted, is 2 Thess.2:1, which is the theme for the passage covering verses 1 -8. It is a direct reference to 2 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are left and still alive, will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds of the sky, to meet the Lord in the air." [paraphrased]

The above departure of the church, pre-empts the Day of the Lord, the seven year tribulation recorded in Dan.9:27. Amplified by Jesus in Mt.24:4-31 and in the counterparts of Mk.13; Lk.21 and Rev.6..

[Staff edit].

Quasar92
 
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The original manuscript containing 2 Thess. 2:3 was written in Greek.

Greeks understand Greek.

Some of the links below are no longer active.

From Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3:

How do Greek Christians interpret 2 Thess 2:3?

I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy". The post-trib Greeks use it to support their case that Yeshua won't return until Armageddon and there is no pre-trib rapture. I have yet to see a pre-trib Greek quote it; they have stayed away from this passage so far.

But here is one web site, originally written in Greek, analyzing this text...

"The apostacy, a sign of the coming End Times, is mentioned by the Apostle Paul in II Thessalonians. The tribulations will not happen "Unless the Apostacy come first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed"...The apostacy is called a sign of the times...The apostacy will somehow lead to the Antichrist and the Antichrist will be a product of apostacy, or rather the termination thereof....The apostacy will be expressed primarily as a general discount of morals and increase in wickdeness and exploitation....the legalization of abortion, prostitution, adultery, inappropriate contentography, homosexualty, and promoting euthanasia are all examples of this trend."
(English translation of excerpts from Η «αποστασία» ως σημείο των καιρών )

Note that he is open as to how the connection is made; Whether apostacy is the cause, effect, or both. But you can't replace the word "apostacy" here with "rapture" and make any sense of what is being said. If "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 meant rapture and not apostacy, a Greek speaking Christian would not be saying this to other Greek speaking Christians. Yes, it makes sense for a Greek speaking Christian to say this to other Greek speaking Christians if "apostacia" means "apostacy", like nearly every Greek dictionary tells and and like nearly every English translation has translated this.

This is just one of many similar examples. At http://www.gec.gr/beee/Kyrigmata/2007/2007-08-12.htm is a Greek Christians who uses the obvious fact that "apostacia" could NOT mean rapture to argue for the post-trib position by saying,

He Quotes 2 Thess 2 and says, "According to the most widespread version of the doctrine of the secret rapture ... Since the church leaves in the rapture ... you will not see him revealed, because you are already in heaven. And of course, the question arises: What is wrong? The mistake is that the text before us does not support this scenario ... You will see the apostasy, then you will see the man of sin, and then will come the presence of the Lord." (English translation of http://www.gec.gr/beee/Kyrigmata/2007/2007-08-12.htm)

The overall flow of the logic here is that if the rapture is pre-trib, we would expect to see "Rapture" in 2 Thess 2:3 where we see "apostacy", but we don't. If "apostacia" even COULD mean "rapture" in Greek, this argument would not make any sense. It is only because "apostacia" means "apostacy" and CANNOT mean "rapture" to Greek speakers that this person is making this argument.

Here's another example;

  • ""the apostasy will come first, revealing the man of sin, the son of perdition ..." (Ap. Paul Thess. Vv.3) ie. will be preceded by the apostacy of the coming of Antichrist, and indeed this is the main church sign. Already in 2000, the Church faces too many heretical groups apostacizing from it..." (English translation of ΝΕΑ ΤΑΞΗ - ΟΙΚΟΥΜΕΝΙΣΜΟΣ - ΟΡΘΟΔΟΞΙΑ )
I was unable to find a single example of a Greek speaking Christian, writing in Greek, advocating a different interpretation than what these 3 men agree on.


Greek term 'apostasia' in 2 Thes.2:3 means 'departure'

Here Mr. Wuest discusses 2Thes 2:3, specifically the meaning of "apostasia." He asserts that it should be translated as 'departure' with reference to the rapture of the church. I have never come across this in any translation and I wonder if it is a correct exegesis of this verse?

"The words =93a falling away=94 are the Authorized Version rendering of apostasia. The verbal form afistamai from which it comes is present middle of afisthmi, the root verb, which we will study. The simple verb Jisthmi inits intransitive sense means =93 to stand,=94 the prefixed preposition means=93 off, away from,=94 and the compound verb, =93 to stand off from.=94 The=word does not mean =93 to fall.=94 The Greeks had a word for that, piptw. Afisthmi, in=its various uses, is reported by Thayer as follows: =93 to make stand off, cause=to withdraw, to stand off, stand aloof, to desert, to withdraw from one=94; in contexts where a defection from the faith is in view, it means =93to fall away, become faithless.=94 The verb is rendered by the translators of the Authorized Version =93 to depart,=94 in Luke 2:32; Luke 4:13; Luke 13:27;=Acts 12:10; Acts 15:38; Acts 19:9; Acts 22:29; 2 Corinthians 12:8; 1 Timothy 4:1;2 Timothy 2:19; Hebrews 3:12. In Luke 8:13 it is translated =93 fall away,=94 in Acts 5:37, =93 drew away,=94 and in Acts 5:38, =93 refrain.=94 Had they translated the word here instead of interpreting it, they would have rendered it by the word =93 departure =94. The reader will observe that the predominant=translation of the verbal form is =93 to depart,=94 also, that where it is translated =93 fall away,=94 the context adds the idea of =93 falling away =94 to the verb, which =action is still a departure.

E. Schuyler English, to whom this present writer is deeply in debted for calling his attention to the word =93 departure=94 as the correct rendering=ofapostasia in this context, also informs us that the following translators understood the Greek word to mean =93a departure=94 in this context: Tyndale(1534), Coverdale (1535), the Geneva Bible (1537), Cranmer (1539), and Beza(1565), and so used it in their translations. Apostasia is used once more inthe New Testament and is translated =93 to forsake=94 (AV), signifying a departure. The neuter noun apostasion in Matthew 5:31; Matthew 19:7; and Mark 10:4 is rendered by the Authorized Version, =93 divorcement,=94 which=word also signifies a departure, here, from antecedent relations.

The writer is well aware of the fact that apostasia was used at times bothin classical and koine Greek in the sense of a defection, a revolt in a religious sense, a rebellion against God, and of the act of apostasy. Liddell and Scott in their classical lexicon give the above as the first definition of the word. Moulton and Milligan quote a papyrus fragment where the word means =93a rebel.=94. But these are acquired meanings of the word=gotten from the context in which it is used, not the original, basic, literal meaning, and should not be imposed upon the word when the context does not qualify the word by these meanings, as in the case of our Thessalonians passage, where the context in which apostasia is embedded does not refer to a defection from the truth but to the rapture of the church. The fact that our word =93 apostasy=94 means a defection from the truth is entirely beside=the point since we do not interpret Scripture upon the basis of a transliterated word to which a certain meaning has been given, but upon the basis of what the Greek word meant to the first century reader. The fact that Paul in 1Timothy 4:1 uses this verb in the words =93 some shall depart from the faith==94 and finds it necessary to qualify its meaning by the phrase =93 from the faith=94 indicates that the word itself has no such connotation. The translators of the Authorized Version did not translate the word, but offered their interpretation of it. They should have translated it and allowed the student to interpret it in its context.

With the translation of the word before us, the next step is to ascertain from the context that to which this departure refers. We note the presence of the Greek definite article before apostasia, of which the translation takes no notice. A Greek word is definite in itself, and when the article is used the exegete must pay particular attention to it. =93. The basal function=of the article is to point out individual identity. It does more than mark =91 the object as definitely conceived,=92 for a substantive in Greek is definite without the article.=94. This departure, whatever it is, is a particular one,one differentiated from all others. Another function of the article is =93 todenote previous reference.=94. Here the article points out an object the identity of which is defined by some previous reference made to it in the context.=94 Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 has just spoken of the coming of the Lord. This coming is defined by the words =93 our gathering together unto=him,=94 not as the second advent, but as the rapture. The Greek word rendered =93 and=94 can also be translated =93 even,=94 and the translation reads, =93 the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, even our gathering together unto him.=94.

The article before apostasia defines that word by pointing to =93 the gathering together unto him =94 as that departure. This article determines the context which defines apostasia. The translators took the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 as deciding the significance of the word, but they went too far afield, not grasping the function of the definite article preceding apostasia which points back to the rapture of 2 Thessalonians 2:2, not ahead to the refusal to believe the truth of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. The article is all-important here, as in many instances of its use in the Greek New Testament. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul had given these saints teaching on the rapture, and the Greek article here points to that which was well known to both the reader and the writer, which is another use of the Greek definite article. Thus, the departure of the church from earth to heaven must precede the great tribulation period. And we have answered our questions again. It might be added that the reason why Paul merely speaks of a pre-tribulation rapture rather than a pre-seventieth week rapture is that he is addressing himself to the needs of the Thessalonian saints and is not explaining the particular place of the rapture in the prophetic program of God."

By Kenneth S. Wuest

Source: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/96-12/0863.html

Wgen Jerome translated 2 Thess.2:3 from the Greek Septuagint, to the Latin Vulgate, he translated the Greek word APOSTASIA to the Latin word, DISCESSIO, both of which mean DEPARTURE dor the text it was used in, for a RAPTURE, not a FALLING AWAY.


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Greek term 'apostasia' in 2 Thes.2:3 means 'departure'

Here Mr. Wuest discusses 2Thes 2:3, specifically the meaning of "apostasia." He asserts that it should be translated as 'departure' with reference to the rapture of the church. I have never come across this in any translation and I wonder if it is a correct exegesis of this verse?

"The words =93a falling away=94 are the Authorized Version rendering of apostasia. The verbal form afistamai from which it comes is present middle of afisthmi, the root verb, which we will study. The simple verb Jisthmi inits intransitive sense means =93 to stand,=94 the prefixed preposition means=93 off, away from,=94 and the compound verb, =93 to stand off from.=94 The=word does not mean =93 to fall.=94 The Greeks had a word for that, piptw. Afisthmi, in=its various uses, is reported by Thayer as follows: =93 to make stand off, cause=to withdraw, to stand off, stand aloof, to desert, to withdraw from one=94; in contexts where a defection from the faith is in view, it means =93to fall away, become faithless.=94 The verb is rendered by the translators of the Authorized Version =93 to depart,=94 in Luke 2:32; Luke 4:13; Luke 13:27;=Acts 12:10; Acts 15:38; Acts 19:9; Acts 22:29; 2 Corinthians 12:8; 1 Timothy 4:1;2 Timothy 2:19; Hebrews 3:12. In Luke 8:13 it is translated =93 fall away,=94 in Acts 5:37, =93 drew away,=94 and in Acts 5:38, =93 refrain.=94 Had they translated the word here instead of interpreting it, they would have rendered it by the word =93 departure =94. The reader will observe that the predominant=translation of the verbal form is =93 to depart,=94 also, that where it is translated =93 fall away,=94 the context adds the idea of =93 falling away =94 to the verb, which =action is still a departure.

E. Schuyler English, to whom this present writer is deeply in debted for calling his attention to the word =93 departure=94 as the correct rendering=ofapostasia in this context, also informs us that the following translators understood the Greek word to mean =93a departure=94 in this context: Tyndale(1534), Coverdale (1535), the Geneva Bible (1537), Cranmer (1539), and Beza(1565), and so used it in their translations. Apostasia is used once more inthe New Testament and is translated =93 to forsake=94 (AV), signifying a departure. The neuter noun apostasion in Matthew 5:31; Matthew 19:7; and Mark 10:4 is rendered by the Authorized Version, =93 divorcement,=94 which=word also signifies a departure, here, from antecedent relations.

The writer is well aware of the fact that apostasia was used at times bothin classical and koine Greek in the sense of a defection, a revolt in a religious sense, a rebellion against God, and of the act of apostasy. Liddell and Scott in their classical lexicon give the above as the first definition of the word. Moulton and Milligan quote a papyrus fragment where the word means =93a rebel.=94. But these are acquired meanings of the word=gotten from the context in which it is used, not the original, basic, literal meaning, and should not be imposed upon the word when the context does not qualify the word by these meanings, as in the case of our Thessalonians passage, where the context in which apostasia is embedded does not refer to a defection from the truth but to the rapture of the church. The fact that our word =93 apostasy=94 means a defection from the truth is entirely beside=the point since we do not interpret Scripture upon the basis of a transliterated word to which a certain meaning has been given, but upon the basis of what the Greek word meant to the first century reader. The fact that Paul in 1Timothy 4:1 uses this verb in the words =93 some shall depart from the faith==94 and finds it necessary to qualify its meaning by the phrase =93 from the faith=94 indicates that the word itself has no such connotation. The translators of the Authorized Version did not translate the word, but offered their interpretation of it. They should have translated it and allowed the student to interpret it in its context.

With the translation of the word before us, the next step is to ascertain from the context that to which this departure refers. We note the presence of the Greek definite article before apostasia, of which the translation takes no notice. A Greek word is definite in itself, and when the article is used the exegete must pay particular attention to it. =93. The basal function=of the article is to point out individual identity. It does more than mark =91 the object as definitely conceived,=92 for a substantive in Greek is definite without the article.=94. This departure, whatever it is, is a particular one,one differentiated from all others. Another function of the article is =93 todenote previous reference.=94. Here the article points out an object the identity of which is defined by some previous reference made to it in the context.=94 Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 has just spoken of the coming of the Lord. This coming is defined by the words =93 our gathering together unto=him,=94 not as the second advent, but as the rapture. The Greek word rendered =93 and=94 can also be translated =93 even,=94 and the translation reads, =93 the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, even our gathering together unto him.=94.

The article before apostasia defines that word by pointing to =93 the gathering together unto him =94 as that departure. This article determines the context which defines apostasia. The translators took the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 as deciding the significance of the word, but they went too far afield, not grasping the function of the definite article preceding apostasia which points back to the rapture of 2 Thessalonians 2:2, not ahead to the refusal to believe the truth of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. The article is all-important here, as in many instances of its use in the Greek New Testament. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul had given these saints teaching on the rapture, and the Greek article here points to that which was well known to both the reader and the writer, which is another use of the Greek definite article. Thus, the departure of the church from earth to heaven must precede the great tribulation period. And we have answered our questions again. It might be added that the reason why Paul merely speaks of a pre-tribulation rapture rather than a pre-seventieth week rapture is that he is addressing himself to the needs of the Thessalonian saints and is not explaining the particular place of the rapture in the prophetic program of God."

By Kenneth S. Wuest

Source: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/96-12/0863.html

Take note also, Jerome translated 2 Thess.2:3 from the Greek Septuagint, to the Latin Vulgate, he translated the Greek word APOSTASIA to the Latin word, DISCESSIO, both of which mean DEPARTURE dor the text it was used in, for a RAPTURE, not a FALLING AWAY.



Quasar92




The meaning of the Greek word, apostasia Bt Thomas Ice, PhD

The Greek noun apostasia is only used twice in the New Testament. In addition to 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it occurs in Acts 21:21 where, speaking of Paul, it is said, " that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia)Moses." The word is a Greek compound of apo " from" and istemi " stand." Thus, it has the core meaning of " away from" or " departure." The Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon defines apostasia first as " defection, revolt;" then secondly as " departure, disappearance." [1] Gordon Lewis explains how the verb from which the noun apostasia is derived supports the basic meaning of departure in the following:

The verb may mean to remove spatially. There is little reason then to deny that the noun can mean such a spatial removal or departure. Since the noun is used only one other time in the New Testament of apostasy from Moses (Acts 21:21), we can hardly conclude that its Biblical meaning is necessarily determined. The verb is used fifteen times in the New Testament. Of these fifteen, only three have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8;13; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb 3:12). The word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Tim. 2:19), from ungodly men(1 Tim. 6:5), from the temple (Luke 2:27), from the body (2 Cor. 12:8), and from persons (Acts 12:10; Luke 4:13).[2]

" It is with full assurance of proper exegetical study and with complete confidence in the original languages," concludes Daniel Davey, " that the word meaning of apostasia is defined as departure." [3] Paul Lee Tan adds the following:

What precisely does Paul mean when he says that " the falling away" (2:3) must come before the tribulation? The definite article " the" denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of the Man of Sin. The Greek word for " falling away" , taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection. Neither does the word mean " to fall," as the Greeks have another word for that. [pipto, I fall; TDI] The best translation of the word is " to depart." The apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls " the departure," and which will occur just before the start of the tribulation. This is the rapture of the church.[4]

So the word has the core meaning of departure and it depends upon the context to determine whether it is used to mean physical departure or an abstract departure such as departure from the faith.

Translation History The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of a.d. 400 renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' " [6] Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of " departure" ?

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No good reason was ever given.

By Thomas Ice, PhD.

Source: tp://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/ttcol.


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jgr

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Greek term 'apostasia' in 2 Thes.2:3 means 'departure'

Here Mr. Wuest discusses 2Thes 2:3, specifically the meaning of "apostasia." He asserts that it should be translated as 'departure' with reference to the rapture of the church. I have never come across this in any translation and I wonder if it is a correct exegesis of this verse?

"The words =93a falling away=94 are the Authorized Version rendering of apostasia. The verbal form afistamai from which it comes is present middle of afisthmi, the root verb, which we will study. The simple verb Jisthmi inits intransitive sense means =93 to stand,=94 the prefixed preposition means=93 off, away from,=94 and the compound verb, =93 to stand off from.=94 The=word does not mean =93 to fall.=94 The Greeks had a word for that, piptw. Afisthmi, in=its various uses, is reported by Thayer as follows: =93 to make stand off, cause=to withdraw, to stand off, stand aloof, to desert, to withdraw from one=94; in contexts where a defection from the faith is in view, it means =93to fall away, become faithless.=94 The verb is rendered by the translators of the Authorized Version =93 to depart,=94 in Luke 2:32; Luke 4:13; Luke 13:27;=Acts 12:10; Acts 15:38; Acts 19:9; Acts 22:29; 2 Corinthians 12:8; 1 Timothy 4:1;2 Timothy 2:19; Hebrews 3:12. In Luke 8:13 it is translated =93 fall away,=94 in Acts 5:37, =93 drew away,=94 and in Acts 5:38, =93 refrain.=94 Had they translated the word here instead of interpreting it, they would have rendered it by the word =93 departure =94. The reader will observe that the predominant=translation of the verbal form is =93 to depart,=94 also, that where it is translated =93 fall away,=94 the context adds the idea of =93 falling away =94 to the verb, which =action is still a departure.

E. Schuyler English, to whom this present writer is deeply in debted for calling his attention to the word =93 departure=94 as the correct rendering=ofapostasia in this context, also informs us that the following translators understood the Greek word to mean =93a departure=94 in this context: Tyndale(1534), Coverdale (1535), the Geneva Bible (1537), Cranmer (1539), and Beza(1565), and so used it in their translations. Apostasia is used once more inthe New Testament and is translated =93 to forsake=94 (AV), signifying a departure. The neuter noun apostasion in Matthew 5:31; Matthew 19:7; and Mark 10:4 is rendered by the Authorized Version, =93 divorcement,=94 which=word also signifies a departure, here, from antecedent relations.

The writer is well aware of the fact that apostasia was used at times bothin classical and koine Greek in the sense of a defection, a revolt in a religious sense, a rebellion against God, and of the act of apostasy. Liddell and Scott in their classical lexicon give the above as the first definition of the word. Moulton and Milligan quote a papyrus fragment where the word means =93a rebel.=94. But these are acquired meanings of the word=gotten from the context in which it is used, not the original, basic, literal meaning, and should not be imposed upon the word when the context does not qualify the word by these meanings, as in the case of our Thessalonians passage, where the context in which apostasia is embedded does not refer to a defection from the truth but to the rapture of the church. The fact that our word =93 apostasy=94 means a defection from the truth is entirely beside=the point since we do not interpret Scripture upon the basis of a transliterated word to which a certain meaning has been given, but upon the basis of what the Greek word meant to the first century reader. The fact that Paul in 1Timothy 4:1 uses this verb in the words =93 some shall depart from the faith==94 and finds it necessary to qualify its meaning by the phrase =93 from the faith=94 indicates that the word itself has no such connotation. The translators of the Authorized Version did not translate the word, but offered their interpretation of it. They should have translated it and allowed the student to interpret it in its context.

With the translation of the word before us, the next step is to ascertain from the context that to which this departure refers. We note the presence of the Greek definite article before apostasia, of which the translation takes no notice. A Greek word is definite in itself, and when the article is used the exegete must pay particular attention to it. =93. The basal function=of the article is to point out individual identity. It does more than mark =91 the object as definitely conceived,=92 for a substantive in Greek is definite without the article.=94. This departure, whatever it is, is a particular one,one differentiated from all others. Another function of the article is =93 todenote previous reference.=94. Here the article points out an object the identity of which is defined by some previous reference made to it in the context.=94 Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 has just spoken of the coming of the Lord. This coming is defined by the words =93 our gathering together unto=him,=94 not as the second advent, but as the rapture. The Greek word rendered =93 and=94 can also be translated =93 even,=94 and the translation reads, =93 the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, even our gathering together unto him.=94.

The article before apostasia defines that word by pointing to =93 the gathering together unto him =94 as that departure. This article determines the context which defines apostasia. The translators took the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 as deciding the significance of the word, but they went too far afield, not grasping the function of the definite article preceding apostasia which points back to the rapture of 2 Thessalonians 2:2, not ahead to the refusal to believe the truth of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. The article is all-important here, as in many instances of its use in the Greek New Testament. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul had given these saints teaching on the rapture, and the Greek article here points to that which was well known to both the reader and the writer, which is another use of the Greek definite article. Thus, the departure of the church from earth to heaven must precede the great tribulation period. And we have answered our questions again. It might be added that the reason why Paul merely speaks of a pre-tribulation rapture rather than a pre-seventieth week rapture is that he is addressing himself to the needs of the Thessalonian saints and is not explaining the particular place of the rapture in the prophetic program of God."

By Kenneth S. Wuest

Source: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/96-12/0863.html

Wgen Jerome translated 2 Thess.2:3 from the Greek Septuagint, to the Latin Vulgate, he translated the Greek word APOSTASIA to the Latin word, DISCESSIO, both of which mean DEPARTURE dor the text it was used in, for a RAPTURE, not a FALLING AWAY.


Quasar92
Given the choice between someone whose mother tongue is the language in question, and someone whose mother tongue is not the language in question, I'll opt for the former, every time.

So did the entire Church until 1895.

So do all Bible translators still.
 
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Quasar92

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Given the choice between someone whose mother tongue is the language in question, and someone whose mother tongue is not the language in question, I'll opt for the former, every time.

So did the entire Church until 1895.

So do all Bible translators still.


The Scriptural pssage of 2 Thess.2:1-8 is an amplification of 1 Thess.4:14-17, that is specifically the teaching of Paul, about the pre-trib rapture of the Church. There isn't one single thing in either of those passages that has anything whatever to do with a falling away, in either text. That was caused by an alteration of 2 Thess.2:3, in 1611 A.D. by KJV scribes, to the word, apostasy, others have followed suit with falling away.

[Staff edit].

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BABerean2

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[Staff edit].

1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 




Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 


.
 
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Quasar92

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Given the choice between someone whose mother tongue is the language in question, and someone whose mother tongue is not the language in question, I'll opt for the former, every time.

So did the entire Church until 1895.

So do all Bible translators still.


FYI, Paul not only spoke and wrote the Greek language well, but was mult-tongued in addition, and well versed in the knowledge of selecting the Greek words he used for the text he put them in. Such as the meaning of apostasia, in 2 Thess.2:3, meaning, DEPARTURE as did Jerome, who translated it into the Latin word, DISCESSIO, in the Latin Vulgate, also meaning DEPARTURE.

Your non-Scriptural argument, trying to remake the passages of Scripture that teaches the raprure of the Church, to say the Church is "FALLING AWAY," WILL NOT FLY.


Quasar92
 
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David Kent

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FYI, Paul not only spoke and wrote the Greek language well, but was mult-tongued in addition, and well versed in the knowledge of selecting the Greek words he used for the text he put them in. Such as the meaning of apostasia, in 2 Thess.2:3, meaning, DEPARTURE as did Jerome, who translated it into the Latin word, DISCESSIO, in the Latin Vulgate, also meaning DEPARTURE.

Your non-Scriptural argument, trying to remake the passages of Scripture that teaches the raprure of the Church, to say the Church is "FALLING AWAY," WILL NOT FLY.


Quasar92
I don't see that supports your view in any way. Departure from the faith or falling away from the faith is apostacy.
 
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jgr

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FYI, Paul not only spoke and wrote the Greek language well, but was mult-tongued in addition, and well versed in the knowledge of selecting the Greek words he used for the text he put them in. Such as the meaning of apostasia, in 2 Thess.2:3, meaning, DEPARTURE as did Jerome, who translated it into the Latin word, DISCESSIO, in the Latin Vulgate, also meaning DEPARTURE.

Your non-Scriptural argument, trying to remake the passages of Scripture that teaches the raprure of the Church, to say the Church is "FALLING AWAY," WILL NOT FLY.


Quasar92
Paul did not write 2 Thessalonians 2:3 in Latin. He wrote it in Greek, and selected the Greek word for falling away.

All contemporary Bible translators now use the Greek as their source.

No Bible version now translates the verse to mean anything other than falling away.
 
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What Quasar92 said is literally true , the sad thing is that in more recent generations church leaders fail to provide all meaning of Scripture and often refuse to teach on all scripture as they spend too much time talking about their attempt at getting church goers to give more money.
Here is a way to see how this word apostasia applies
2 Thess.PNG
 
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