Who are the "two witnesses" in Revelation 11:3-6 ?

seventysevens

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2017
3,207
844
USA
✟38,043.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
The bible teaches the resurrection and catching up takes place at the 7th/Last trump. 1 Corinthians 15:52-54

1 Corinthians 15:23-24 teaches when this event takes place " Then Cometh The End"

In perfect agreement with Revelation 11:15-18, the 7th trump, Revelation 10:6-7 voice of the 7th angel, time no lonnger
Do you understand what the rapture 'catching away ' really is ?
Why do think that there is need for a rapture ?

Why do you think that the rapture should be after the Great Tribulation
when Jesus has come ?

The question is not about when , the questions is about why there
needs to a rapture , I am asking You what is your understanding of a rapture and why a rapture is needed ?
 
Upvote 0

Truth7t7

Newbie
Dec 20, 2012
5,032
1,290
✟81,242.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Do you understand what the rapture 'catching away ' really is ?
Why do think that there is need for a rapture ?

Why do you think that the rapture should be after the Great Tribulation
when Jesus has come ?

The question is not about when , the questions is about why there
needs to a rapture , I am asking You what is your understanding of a rapture and why a rapture is needed ?
present your case and scripture to support.
 
Upvote 0

seventysevens

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2017
3,207
844
USA
✟38,043.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
present your case and scripture to support.

Do you understand what the rapture 'catching away ' really is ?
Why do think that there is need for a rapture ?

Why do you think that the rapture should be after the Great Tribulation
when Jesus has come ?

The question is not about when , the questions is about why there
needs to a rapture , I am asking You what is your understanding of a rapture and why a rapture is needed ?

so obviously you have no idea whatsoever on how to answer such easy questions
but yet you are so adamant about things being wrong that you obviously don't even understand why or how it is to be
you constantly say there is no rapture but you have no understanding of the topic at all
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Do you understand what the rapture 'catching away ' really is ?
Why do think that there is need for a rapture ?

Why do you think that the rapture should be after the Great Tribulation
when Jesus has come ?

The question is not about when , the questions is about why there
needs to a rapture , I am asking You what is your understanding of a rapture and why a rapture is needed ?

so obviously you have no idea whatsoever on how to answer such easy questions
but yet you are so adamant about things being wrong that you obviously don't even understand why or how it is to be
you constantly say there is no rapture but you have no understanding of the topic at all


Some do not like the word "rapture", because it is only in the Latin.

It is the gathering of the Church at the Second Coming of Christ.

A description of the event is found at the end of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 and the timing of the event is found at the beginning of chapter 5, on the "day of the Lord", when Christ comes "as a thief".
The same language is found in 2 Peter 3:10, and Revelation 16:15-16, which proves it is a Second Coming event.
Christ descends in the passage.
There is nothing about a trip back to heaven in the passage.

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.

.
 
Upvote 0

seventysevens

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2017
3,207
844
USA
✟38,043.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Some do not like the word "rapture", because it is only in the Latin.

.
Rapture is an English word established by the earliest Protestant church derived from the latin word , which was translated from the original Greek word
But yet did you understand the questions ?, it being focused on the understanding of why there is to be a rapture at all in the first place , it is much much more than a gathering.
The Greek word Harpazo literally means to be snatched away with violent force suddenly without warning
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Greek word Harpazo literally means to be snatched away with violent force suddenly without warning

It will not be quiet, that is for sure...

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

.
 
Upvote 0

David Kent

Continuing Historicist
Aug 24, 2017
2,173
663
86
Ashford Kent
✟116,777.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Conservative
Yes I believe that, Jesus taught that he would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days. Matthew 26:61

Jesus destroyed the Temple, demolished it in his death, burial, resurrection, tearing the veil to the holy of holies. Matthew 27:51

You believe a literal destruction, Jesus taught of the symbolic destruction.

Matthew 24:29-31 demolishes your teaching of 70AD fulfillment of the "Great Tribulation"

Verse 29 "immediately after the tribulation of those days"

Verse 30 "they shall see the Son Of Man coming"
Hmm! Yes Jesus said in John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. He said they would destroy the temple, his body, and he would raise it up in three days. The false witnesses misquoted him.
John 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
In the Olivet prophecy, they were discussing the temple and commenting on the actual stones, not one stone would be left standing.
Was it destroyed in AD 70?
Is it standing now?
Did the Christians flee the city when they saw the Abomination of Desolation, that is the Roman armies surrounding Rome? I will answer that for you. Yes they did.
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Matthew 24:29-31 demolishes your teaching of 70AD fulfillment of the "Great Tribulation"

These brethren didn't think so.

Matthew 24 historicists

160AD Clement of Alexandria (On Matthew 24:15, The Abomination of Desolation) "We have still to add to our chronology the following, -- I mean the days which Daniel indicates from the desolation of Jerusalem, the seven years and seven months of the reign of Vespasian. For the two years are added to the seventeen months and eighteen days of Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius; and the result is three years and six months, which is "the half of the week," as Daniel the prophet said. For he said that there were two thousand three hundred days from the time that the abomination of Nero stood in the holy city, till its destruction. For thus the declaration, which is subjoined, shows: "How long shall be the vision, the sacrifice taken away, the abomination of desolation, which is given, and the power and the holy place shall be trodden under foot? And he said to him, Till the evening and morning, two thousand three hundred days, and the holy place shall be taken away."


325AD Eusebius Pamphilius, Ecclesiastical History: (On Matthew 24:15) "--all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive. sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire,-- all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus." (Book III, Ch. 5)


375AD 'John' Chrysostom, Homily St. Matthew: (On Matthew 24:15) "And see how He relates the war, by the things that seem to be small setting forth how intolerable it was to be. For, "Then,"saith He, "let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains." Then, When? When these things should be, "when the abomination of desolation should stand in the holy place." Whence He seems to me to be speaking of the armies." (Homily 76, Number 1)


John Calvin

Matthew 24:15

When you shall see the abomination of desolation. Because the destruction of the temple and city of Jerusalem, together with the overthrow of the whole Jewish government, was (as we have already said) a thing incredible, and because it might be thought strange, that the disciples could not be saved without being torn from that nation, to which had been committed the adoption and the covenant(Romans 9:4) of eternal salvation, Christ confirms both by the testimony of Daniel As if he had said, That you may not be too strongly attached to the temple and to the ceremonies of the Law, God has limited them to a fixed time, 136 and has long ago declared, that when the Redeemer should come, sacrifices would cease; and that it may not give you uneasiness to be cut off from your own nation, God has also forewarned his people, that in due time it would be rejected.


Adam Clarke

Matthew 24:15

The abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel - This abomination of desolation, St. Luke, (Luk 21:20, Luk 21:21), refers to the Roman army; and this abomination standing in the holy place is the Roman army besieging Jerusalem; this, our Lord says, is what was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, in the ninth and eleventh chapters of his prophecy; and so let every one who reads these prophecies understand them; and in reference to this very event they are understood by the rabbins. The Roman army is called an abomination, for its ensigns and images, which were so to the Jews. Josephus says, (War, b. vi. chap. 6), the Romans brought their ensigns into the temple, and placed them over against the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there. The Roman army is therefore fitly called the abomination, and the abomination which maketh desolate, as it was to desolate and lay waste Jerusalem; and this army besieging Jerusalem is called by St. Mark, Mar 13:14, standing where it ought not, that is, as in the text here, the holy place; as not only the city, but a considerable compass of ground about it, was deemed holy, and consequently no profane persons should stand on it.

Matthew 24:16

Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains - This counsel was remembered and wisely followed by the Christians afterwards. Eusebius and Epiphanius say, that at this juncture, after Cestius Gallus had raised the siege, and Vespasian was approaching with his army, all who believed in Christ left Jerusalem and fled to Pella, and other places beyond the river Jordan; and so they all marvellously escaped the general shipwreck of their country: not one of them perished. See on Mat 24:13 (note).


Matthew Henry

Matthew 24:15

Here he comes more closely to answer their questions concerning the desolation of the temple; and what he said here, would be of use to his disciples, both for their conduct and for their comfort, in reference to that great event; he describes the several steps of that calamity, such as are usual in war.1. The Romans setting up the abomination of desolation in the holy place, v. 15. Now, (1.) Some understand by this an image, or statue, set up in the temple by some of the Roman governors, which was very offensive to the Jews, provoked them to rebel, and so brought the desolation upon them. The image of Jupiter Olympius, which Antiochus caused to be set upon the altar of God, is called Bdelygma eremoseos —The abomination of desolation, the very word here used by the historian, 1 Mac. 1:54 . Since the captivity in Babylon, nothing was, nor could be, more distasteful to the Jews than an image in the holy place, as appeared by the mighty opposition they made when Caligula offered to set up his statue there, which had been of fatal consequence, if it had not been prevented, and the matter accommodated, by the conduct of Petronius; but Herod did set up an eagle over the temple-gate; and, some say, the statue of Titus was set up in the temple. (2.) Others choose to expound it by the parallel place (Lu. 21:20 ),when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies. Jerusalem was the holy city, Canaan the holy land, the Mount Moriah, which lay about Jerusalem, for its nearness to the temple was, they thought in a particular manner holy ground; on the country lying round about Jerusalem the Roman army was encamped, that was the abomination that made desolate. The land of an enemy is said to be the land which thou abhorrest (Isa. 7:16 ); so an enemy’s army to a weak but wilful people may well be called the abomination.Now this is said to be spoken of by Daniel, the prophet, who spoke more plainly of the Messiah and his kingdom than any of the Old-Testament prophets did. He speaks of an abomination making desolate, which should be set up by Antiochus (Dan. 11:31Dan. 12:11 ); but this that our Saviour refers to, we have in the message that the angel brought him (Dan. 9:27 ), of what should come at the end of seventy weeks, long after the former; for the overspreading of abominations, or, as the margin reads it, with the abominable armies (which comes home to the prophecy here), he shall make it desolate.


John Wesley

Matthew 24:15-16
24:15
When ye see the abomination of desolation - Daniel's term is, The abomination that maketh desolate, Daniel 11:31 ; that is, the standards of the desolating legions, onwhich they bear the abominable images of their idols: Standing in the holy place - Not only the temple and the mountain on which it stood, but the whole city of Jerusalem, and several furlongs of land round about it, were accounted holy; particularly the mount on which our Lord now sat, and on which the Romans afterward planted their ensigns. He that readeth let him understand - Whoever reads that prophecy of Daniel, let him deeply consider it. 13:14 ; Luke 21:20; Dan 9:27.

24:16
Then let them who are in Judea flee to the mountains - So the Christians did, and were preserved. It is remarkable that after the Romans under Cestus Gallus made their first advances toward Jerusalem, they suddenly withdrew again, in a most unexpected and indeed impolitic manner. This the Christians took as a signal to retire, which they did, some to Pella, and others to Mount Libanus.


Charles Spurgeon

Matthew 24:15-18

This portion of our Savior’s words appears to relate solely to the destruction of Jerusalem. As soon as Christ’s disciples saw “the abomination of desolation,” that is, the Roman ensigns with their idolatrous emblems, “stand in the holy place,” they knew that the time for them to escape had arrived—and they did “flee into the mountains.” The Christians in Jerusalem and the surrounding towns and villages “in Judaea,” availed themselves of the first opportunity for eluding the Roman armies, and fled to the mountain city of Pella, in Perea, where they were preserved from the general destruction which overthrew the Jews. There was no time to spare before the final investment of the guilty city. The man “on the housetop” could “not come down to take anything out of his house,” and the man “in the field” could not “return back to take his clothes.” They must flee to the mountains in the greatest haste, the moment that they saw “Jerusalem compassed with armies” (Luke 21:20).
 
Upvote 0

Truth7t7

Newbie
Dec 20, 2012
5,032
1,290
✟81,242.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hmm! Yes Jesus said in John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. He said they would destroy the temple, his body, and he would raise it up in three days. The false witnesses misquoted him.
John 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
In the Olivet prophecy, they were discussing the temple and commenting on the actual stones, not one stone would be left standing.
Was it destroyed in AD 70?
Is it standing now?
Did the Christians flee the city when they saw the Abomination of Desolation, that is the Roman armies surrounding Rome? I will answer that for you. Yes they did.
Jesus taught he would destroy the temple symbolically and he did in his death, burial, resurrection. Matthew 26:61

You believe literal 70AD Roman Destruction.

I believe symbolic as Jesus taught in Matthew 26:61

We will disagree.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0