Who are the "two witnesses" in Revelation 11:3-6 ?

[yeshuasavedme]

I missed that in scripture, as you claim Moses is alive in his flesh today?

Deuteronomy 34:7-8 states he's died in his body of flesh?

So? Lazarus did too, and was buried four days. Jesus raised him, and so has He raised countless in their own bodies unregenerated, to die again.
As to Moses, Satan could not have his body for destruction, because God used his death as an oracle, and those who take heed will never strike the Rock/Christ, twice.

-And there Moses stood, in his flesh, with Elijah, speaking with Jesus about His upcoming death in Jerusalem.

 

[Truth7t7]

So? Lazarus did too, and was buried four days. Jesus raised him, and so has He raised countless in their own bodies unregenerated, to die again.
As to Moses, Satan could not have his body for destruction, because God used his death as an oracle, and those who take heed will never strike the Rock/Christ, twice.

-And there Moses stood, in his flesh, with Elijah, speaking with Jesus about His upcoming death in Jerusalem.

Please quote your scriptue reference showing Moses has a body of flesh?

In Deuteronomy 34:7-8 Moses physically died, no the resurrection hasn't taken place.

 

[David Kent]

Moses died and the LORD buried him.

• Deut 34:1-6 And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto the mountain of Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, that is over against Jericho. And the LORD shewed him all the land of Gilead, unto Dan,
• 2And all Naphtali, and the land of Ephraim, and Manasseh, and all the land of Judah, unto the utmost sea,
• 3And the south, and the plain of the valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, unto Zoar.
• 4And the LORD said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither.
• 5So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
• 6And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

 

[Waterwerx]

In #2 above you state Jesus will return to set up a kingdom on this earth?

Matthew 25:31-46 clearly teaches Jesus Christ will return to "Final Judgment" as seen in verse 46, the wicked "Eternal Punishment" the righteous "Eternal Life"

The Kingdom presented in verse 34 is the "Eternal Life Kingdom"

Based on what? Where do you get the words "final judgment" from in those verses? A simple exercise in critical reading and the comparing and contrasting of those verses with Revelation 20:15 should show you your ideas are incorrect.

Time: Judgment of the nations happens when Christ returns to the earth to set up His kingdom vs. the Great White Throne judgment which occurs after Christ's 1,000 year reign on earth.

Who: Living people comprising nations when Christ returns vs. "everyone" from all times that are unsaved.

What: Determination of who is allowed to enter His millennial kingdom vs. the final sentencing of their punishment AFTER the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

The last judgment has absolutely NOTHING to do with nations and deals with the individual. In a sense, it is the final sentencing of the unsaved. Being that they had no part in the first resurrection, they are unsaved and their works(good and bad) are weighed and used to determine the severity of their final punishment in the lake of fire.

Sure, the individuals comprising the goat nations are going to inherit their reward, the lake of fire, at the end of the millennium. Given the timing, those involved, and the fact that only the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire at this point, its just silly to equate the entirety of Matthew 25:31-46 to the final judgment based off of the single phrase "eternal punishment".

 

[David Kent]

Based on what? Where do you get the words "final judgment" from in those verses? A simple exercise in critical reading and the comparing and contrasting of those verses with Revelation 20:15 should show you your ideas are incorrect.

Time: Judgment of the nations happens when Christ returns to the earth to set up His kingdom vs. the Great White Throne judgment which occurs after Christ's 1,000 year reign on earth.

Who: Living people comprising nations when Christ returns vs. "everyone" from all times that are unsaved.

What: Determination of who is allowed to enter His millennial kingdom vs. the final sentencing of their punishment AFTER the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

The last judgment has absolutely NOTHING to do with nations and deals with the individual. In a sense, it is the final sentencing of the unsaved. Being that they had no part in the first resurrection, they are unsaved and their works(good and bad) are weighed and used to determine the severity of their final punishment in the lake of fire.

Sure, the individuals comprising the goat nations are going to inherit their reward, the lake of fire, at the end of the millennium. Given the timing, those involved, and the fact that only the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire at this point, its just silly to equate the entirety of Matthew 25:31-46 to the final judgment based off of the single phrase "eternal punishment".

Such a mixed up teaching it is hard to make head or tail of it. There is only one judgement day.

 

[Truth7t7]

Based on what? Where do you get the words "final judgment" from in those verses? A simple exercise in critical reading and the comparing and contrasting of those verses with Revelation 20:15 should show you your ideas are incorrect.

Time: Judgment of the nations happens when Christ returns to the earth to set up His kingdom vs. the Great White Throne judgment which occurs after Christ's 1,000 year reign on earth.

Who: Living people comprising nations when Christ returns vs. "everyone" from all times that are unsaved.

What: Determination of who is allowed to enter His millennial kingdom vs. the final sentencing of their punishment AFTER the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

The last judgment has absolutely NOTHING to do with nations and deals with the individual. In a sense, it is the final sentencing of the unsaved. Being that they had no part in the first resurrection, they are unsaved and their works(good and bad) are weighed and used to determine the severity of their final punishment in the lake of fire.

Sure, the individuals comprising the goat nations are going to inherit their reward, the lake of fire, at the end of the millennium. Given the timing, those involved, and the fact that only the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire at this point, its just silly to equate the entirety of Matthew 25:31-46 to the final judgment based off of the single phrase "eternal punishment".

Matthew 25:31-46 is the GWTJ as seen in Revelation 20:11-15 parallel teachings.

In both accounts Jesus is on the throne, the world/nations before this, both end in final eternal judgment.

This final judgment to eternity, only takes place one time, when the book of life is open.

Once again Matthew 25:31-46 & Revelation 20:11-15 "Same Final Judgment Of All"

 

[Waterwerx]

Such a mixed up teaching it is hard to make head or tail of it. There is only one judgement day.

[Staff edit].

What do you find so difficult to understand? Christians are judged based upon their works in order to determine the rewards they receive. Nations existing at the time of Christ's return are judged based upon their treatment of the "brethren"(the Jews) to determine if they are allowed to enter the millennial kingdom. At the end of the millennium, every unsaved individual is judged at the Great White Throne to determine the severity of their eternal punishment.

 

[Waterwerx]

Matthew 25:31-46 is the GWTJ as seen in Revelation 20:11-15 parallel teachings.

both accounts Jesus is on the throne, the world/nations before this, both end in final eternal judgment.

This final judgment to eternity, only takes place one time, when the book of life is open.

Once again Matthew 25:31-46 & Revelation 20:11-15 "Same Final Judgment Of All"

Sure, they're parallel if you ignore the fact that the events are 1,000 years apart and disregard the Trinity since it is God the Father, the 1st Person of the Trinity that is seated on the Great White Throne.
1 Corinthians 15:23-26
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He(Christ) must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire.

Obviously verses 24-26 is referring to after the millennium, since it is only at that point when the final enemy, Death, is destroyed when cast into the lake of fire.

"The temporal phase of the kingdom having thus come to an end, Christ will turn it over to the Father. “And when all things are subjected to Him, then the
Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all” (1 Cor. 15:28)."(1)

(1)Lectures in Systematic Theology, H. C. Thiessen

 

[BABerean2]

Nations existing at the time of Christ's return are judged based upon their treatment of the "brethren"(the Jews) to determine if they are allowed to enter the millennial kingdom.

The Final Judgment (subtitle from eSword)

Mat 25:31　 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:　
Mat 25:32　 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:　
Mat 25:33　 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.　
Mat 25:34　 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:　
Mat 25:35　 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:　
Mat 25:36　 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.　
Mat 25:37　 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?　
Mat 25:38　 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?　
Mat 25:39　 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?　
Mat 25:40　 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.　
Mat 25:41　 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:　
Mat 25:42　 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:　
Mat 25:43　 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.　
Mat 25:44　 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?　
Mat 25:45　 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.　
Mat 25:46　 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


There is nothing in the text above specifically about the Jews.　

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[Waterwerx]

There is nothing in the text above specifically about the Jews.　

Neither is "antichrist" found in Revelation.

 

[David Kent]

Neither is "antichrist" found in Revelation.

Neither is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9, the reason being he is not there,

 

[Grandliseur]

Moses, Elijah and Enoch are the most likely candidates for Revelation's two witnesses, with most scholars believing the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah. In Matthew 17, when Jesus took Peter, James, and John to the mount and was transfigured in front of them, Moses and Elijah appeared with Him. Enoch was not there. The transfiguration can be seen as a picture of the coming of the two witnesses--Moses and Elijah.

Malachi 4:5 predicts that Elijah will come as one of the two witnesses: "See I will send you the prophet Elijah before the great and dreadful day of the Lord comes." Elijah was taken up into heaven by a whirlwind and chariot of fire (see 2 Kings 2:9-11); he did not physically die. Likewise, Moses, did not die a normal death. The Bible tells us that God preserved Moses' body (see Deuteronomy 34:5,6; Jude 9). The accounts of their deaths further corroborate the selection of Moses and Elijah as the two witnesses.

The powers given these two witnesses in Revelation 11:3-6, are the very same ones they were each given during their lifetime. The power to shut up the sky so it didn't rain was given to Elijah in 1 Kings 17:1. Moses was given the power to turn water into blood, in Exodus 7:17.
Quasa92r

As in all things Biblical, there is the denominational schisms that prevent all from accepting the same dogma.

In regards to interpretation of Revelation, Daniel and much more, there is one single thing that we might all be able to learn from - namely, that such Biblical things are provided for in the Bible itself. The Bible is inspired by God, and only through its inspired material may we find the keys for interpreting it.

The two witnesses:
Their interpretation is provided in Revelation itself. Just as the beasts' interpretation may be found in Revelation, this is also found.
Let's look at this interpretation:

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And the one hearing, let him say, Come! And the one thirsting, let him come; and the one desiring, let him take of the water of life freely.​

So, who is saying come as a witness? The bride and the spirit. The next question is, who is the bride of Christ?! If you can answer that you have your answer to your question.

Here it is:

Revelation 21:9 And one of the seven angels came to me, he having the seven bowls being filled with the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying, Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb. 10 And he carried me in spirit on to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, holy Jerusalem, coming down out of Heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. And its light was like a very precious stone, as a jasper stone, being clear as crystal,
2 Corinthians 11: 2 For I am jealous over you with a jealousy of God. For I have promised you to one Man, to present you a pure virgin to Christ.​

In this then, it is the saints in Christ that is the bride. If you understand it differently - is up to you.

​

 

[Quasar92]

As in all things Biblical, there is the denominational schisms that prevent all from accepting the same dogma.

In regards to interpretation of Revelation, Daniel and much more, there is one single thing that we might all be able to learn from - namely, that such Biblical things are provided for in the Bible itself. The Bible is inspired by God, and only through its inspired material may we find the keys for interpreting it.

The two witnesses:
Their interpretation is provided in Revelation itself. Just as the beasts' interpretation may be found in Revelation, this is also found.
Let's look at this interpretation:

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And the one hearing, let him say, Come! And the one thirsting, let him come; and the one desiring, let him take of the water of life freely.​

So, who is saying come as a witness? The bride and the spirit. The next question is, who is the bride of Christ?! If you can answer that you have your answer to your question.

Here it is:

Revelation 21:9 And one of the seven angels came to me, he having the seven bowls being filled with the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying, Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb. 10 And he carried me in spirit on to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, holy Jerusalem, coming down out of Heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. And its light was like a very precious stone, as a jasper stone, being clear as crystal,
2 Corinthians 11: 2 For I am jealous over you with a jealousy of God. For I have promised you to one Man, to present you a pure virgin to Christ.​

In this then, it is the saints in Christ that is the bride. If you understand it differently - is up to you.

​

Scriptures reveal the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah

Rev.11:3 "And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”a 5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want."

THE TWO WITNESSES HAVE THE SAME POWERS THEY HAD IN THE OT:

1 Kings 17:1 'Now Elijah the Tishbite, from Tishbea in Gilead, said to Ahab, “As the Lord, the God of Israel, lives, whom I serve, there will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word.”

Ex.7:19"The LORD said to Moses, "Tell Aaron, 'Take your staff and stretch out your hand over the waters of Egypt--over the streams and canals, over the ponds and all the reservoirs--and they will turn to blood.' Blood will be everywhere in Egypt, even in vessels of wood and stone."

Jesus transfiguration in coming into His kingdom:

Mt.16:28“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Mt.17:1 "After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus"


Quasar92.

 

[BABerean2]

Scriptures reveal the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah

Rev.11:3 "And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”a 5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want."

Problem #1: Moses died and was buried.

Problem #2: Where in the Bible are either Moses or Elijah described as "olive trees" or "lampstands"?

Problem #3: Since the New Testament is the final revelation from God, it should be used to interpret the Old Testament, instead of vice-versa.
In Revelation 1:20 Jesus said the lampstands are a symbol of the churches.
In Romans 11 Paul used two olive trees as a symbol of the New Covenant Church.

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[Truth7t7]

What do you find so difficult to understand? Christians are judged based upon their works in order to determine the rewards they receive. Nations existing at the time of Christ's return are judged based upon their treatment of the "brethren"(the Jews) to determine if they are allowed to enter the millennial kingdom. At the end of the millennium, every unsaved individual is judged at the Great White Throne to determine the severity of their eternal punishment.

The Nations are judged on how they treated (Jews), then they can enter your proclaimed millennial kingdom?

Are you serious or kidding?

Matthew 25:31-46 clearly shows the final judgment of all.

verses 31-32 Jesus returns with angels, Nations are gathered and separated between righteous ( sheep) and wicked ( goats)

verse 34 shows the eternal kingdom, the righteous enter.

verse 40 shows the lake of fire the wicked are judged to.

verse 46 shows this is the "Eternal Judgment" wicked eternal punishment, righteous "Eternal Life"

 

[Grandliseur]

Scriptures reveal the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah

Rev.11:3 "And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”a 5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want."

THE TWO WITNESSES HAVE THE SAME POWERS THEY HAD IN THE OT:

1 Kings 17:1 'Now Elijah the Tishbite, from Tishbea in Gilead, said to Ahab, “As the Lord, the God of Israel, lives, whom I serve, there will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word.”

Ex.7:19"The LORD said to Moses, "Tell Aaron, 'Take your staff and stretch out your hand over the waters of Egypt--over the streams and canals, over the ponds and all the reservoirs--and they will turn to blood.' Blood will be everywhere in Egypt, even in vessels of wood and stone."

Jesus transfiguration in coming into His kingdom:

Mt.16:28“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Mt.17:1 "After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus"


Quasar92.

Your material is just scriptures, nearly. I still think that the scripture from Revelation I quoted tells us who they are. You didn't mention anything about that.

Of course, you mention of Matt 17:1, tells me you think them to be Moses and Elijah. These are dead now.

 

[David Kent]

The Nations are judged on how they treated (Jews), then they can enter your proclaimed millennial kingdom?

Are you serious or kidding?

Matthew 25:31-46 clearly shows the final judgment of all.

verses 31-32 Jesus returns with angels, Nations are gathered and separated between righteous ( sheep) and wicked ( goats)

verse 34 shows the eternal kingdom, the righteous enter.

verse 40 shows the lake of fire the wicked are judged to.

verse 46 shows this is the "Eternal Judgment" wicked eternal punishment, righteous "Eternal Life"

I think he probably is serious. His teaching is taken straight from the Plymouth Brethren, Nothing like what the church taught before then.

Well probably not directly but via Scofield and the Presbyterians, AOG and various others to the Baptists.

 

[David Kent]

Are you serious or kidding?

Another problem with his teaching is that he believes that the Jews are Jesus' Brethren, whereas Jesus said

• Matthew 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
• Matthew 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
• Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
• Mark 3:33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
• Mark 3:34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
• Luke 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

 

[Truth7t7]

[Staff edit].

Do you believe in a future great tribulation, second advent, and bodily resurrection of the believer?

 

[David Kent]

Do you believe in a future great tribulation, second advent, and bodily resurrection of the believer?

1. No
2. Yes
3. Yes

There was great tribulation on the Jews which began in AD 67 and continues on and off till today. Many millions of Jews have been murdered in that time,

There is great tribulation on Christians which began about the same time and continues still. Many millions of Christians have been murdered in that time.