Who are the GREEDY?

[rambot]

Everyone's greedy. The difference is that some people's greed has a FAAAAR smaller impact than another.

 

[StephanieSomer]

Cheap/free healthcare does not mean that doctors aren't paid. Not really sure where you'd get that idea.

Yes, everyone is entitled to healthcare, even though the country I live in doesn't exactly agree (not all of it anyways). Everyone is also entitled to food, water, public transportation, public information, access to education, and shelter.

Just existing means you are entitled to all of these things. All humans are entitled to all of these things and deserve them.

If I walk into a grocery store to get a loaf of bread, I am not entitled to walk out with that loaf unless and until I pay for it. Once I DO pay for it, I AM entitled to walk out with it. In other words, I am entitled only to that which I own. I do not own that loaf of bread until I pay for it. So, in essence, to be entitled to something means that I own it. If I own it, I no longer need pay for it, since I, or somebody else, already have done so. Given all that, how is anyone entitled to food, water, public transportation, public information, access to education, and shelter? If they ARE entitled to those things, it must indicate that either they paid for them, or somebody else did. If they themselves have not paid for them, then logic dictates that somebody else did. Now, if somebody else DID pay for it, but was unwilling to give it away, it was taken from them against their will. How is that anything but larceny?

As a note on this, Jesus Himself said if we have food and clothing, we should be content. Your list goes WAY beyond what Jesus deemed necessary for contentment. In other words, your post essentially says that all humans are entitled to more than Jesus stated as requirements for life. By what principle?

 

[TerranceL]

Hear hear! How dare those filthy hippies refuse to pay for someone else's education? I say we put those lazy diseased cripples out of our misery!

Poor people with cancer are a cancer on our nation, and we will cure our nation by keeping chemotherapy out of their reach.

They aren't paying for someone else's education, they are paying for someones services.

You don't work for free, why should a doctor?

 

[TerranceL]

Cheap/free healthcare does not mean that doctors aren't paid. Not really sure where you'd get that idea.

Yes, everyone is entitled to healthcare, even though the country I live in doesn't exactly agree (not all of it anyways). Everyone is also entitled to food, water, public transportation, public information, access to education, and shelter.

Just existing means you are entitled to all of these things. All humans are entitled to all of these things and deserve them.

No one is entitled to someones labor without compensation.

 

[TerranceL]

No, that's not what slavery is and nobody here is advocating for doctors to not get paid for the work they do.

Just forcing them to take less money for their labor than they believe it's worth.

 

[KitKatMatt]

If I walk into a grocery store to get a loaf of bread, I am not entitled to walk out with that loaf unless and until I pay for it.

No one is entitled to someones labor without compensation.

I kind of thought it was a given that I support the government paying for all of these things by taxation.

 

[StephanieSomer]

Everyone's greedy. The difference is that some people's greed has a FAAAAR smaller impact than another.

When it comes to the minimum wage, most people don't think it through far enough to realize the real consequences of raising it to what most would consider sufficient to live on. For one thing, the minimum wage was never intended to be a living wage. It's only a starting wage. It's absolutely unreasonable to expect it to support anyone. If it were raised to a point of sufficiency for support, what motivation is there to excel? If flipping burgers is enough to give me a car, a house, healthcare, the latest cellphone, cable TV, a yearly vacation, and food for every meal, what reason could I possibly have for learning to do something more challenging? The long-term consequence of turning the minimum wage into a living wage, which it never was, is to eliminate qualified people to do things which require more talent than flipping burgers or asking, "Would you like fries with that?". I think too many people assume that most people would not want to remain a burger flipper. My experience is that most people want to do the least they can to get what they need. In truth, humanity is basically lazy, and will do as little as they can get away with. Want proof? How many people have you ever seen that actually work the entire 8 hour shift that they are paid for? How much of that 8 hours is spent chatting about what they did over the weekend with a co-worker? There's not enough people with a natural drive to excel just for the joy of excelling. The need for money is the number one motivator in any economy. Remove that need by artificially inflating the value of menial work and the economy WILL falter, and likely eventually collapse. Not immediately, but eventually.

 

[Avid]

... They have to go through a period of residency in which they're making $40,000/year for 3-5 years...at which point they're trying to pay off that $180,000 of student loan debt. Even with a good interest rate, they're still trying to pay $1600/month on a $40k salary...not exactly a situation I'd ever want to be in.

It was shown that these doctors may get grants, and, you know, they may get scholarships. That may reduce the cost to the student, but that does not change the overall cost of the education. If we look at what it costs to run a doctor through Internship & Residency, we see it is more than just the amount of money he cannot make yet. There are doctors in teaching capacity who may make more money if they were not required to teach these people. I know it is how we prepare new doctors, but it is a cost that should be considered. We are getting closer to my Million Dollar Guesstimate as we consider all these things.

Consider, in addition, that the doctor's education did not start at Post-Grad levels. It did not even start at the College entry level. We may speculate that the doctor's formal education started at the Kindergarten level, and included things that other students may not have gone through. Regardless of how it gets paid, someone paid dearly and the student bore a great deal of that cost.

 

[StephanieSomer]

I kind of thought it was a given that I support the government paying for all of these things by taxation.

Who is the government? Do you think they simply create money out of thin air to support people's lifestyles? The government is you. It's me. It's your next door neighbor. THOSE are the ones paying for it. There is no magical fairy princess with a wand named "the government" that can simply wish things into existence. Those things are paid for by people, not an imaginary government.

 

[KitKatMatt]

Who is the government? Do you think they simply create money out of thin air to support people's lifestyles? The government is you. It's me. It's your next door neighbor. THOSE are the ones paying for it. There is no magical fairy princess with a wand named "the government" that can simply wish things into existence. Those things are paid for by people, not an imaginary government.

I literally said "by taxation" in the text you quoted me. The government is the central organization that manages what to do with the money collected by taxes, which is why I said "the government".

I work. I pay taxes. I will willingly pay more taxes to make sure everyone has all of those things I listed in the other posts.

 

[rambot]

When it comes to the minimum wage, most people don't think it through far enough to realize the real consequences of raising it to what most would consider sufficient to live on. For one thing, the minimum wage was never intended to be a living wage. It's only a starting wage. It's absolutely unreasonable to expect it to support anyone.

In case you haven't noticed, more than a few of the jobs that used to support middle income families are getting shipped off to places where labour is FAR less cheap. I'm sure minimum wage was never intended to be a living wage. And I'm sure that, once upon a time, politicians said that free trade would NOT threaten jobs in our prospective countries.

If it were raised to a point of sufficiency for support, what motivation is there to excel? If flipping burgers is enough to give me a car, a house, healthcare, the latest cellphone, cable TV, a yearly vacation, and food for every meal, what reason could I possibly have for learning to do something more challenging?

You think 15$/hr will do that? [snicker!]. Also, there ARE people who are not built or capable of doing something more challenging. Are the less abled not worthy of a living wage?

My experience is that most people want to do the least they can to get what they need. In truth, humanity is basically lazy, and will do as little as they can get away with. Want proof? How many people have you ever seen that actually work the entire 8 hour shift that they are paid for? How much of that 8 hours is spent chatting about what they did over the weekend with a co-worker?

Well, it sounds as if you are arguing over the VERY things that have been shown to improve worker output. I also see those nogood cheaters taking COFFEE and LUNCH BREAKS. Pffft.... count on those lazy socialists.....

There's not enough people with a natural drive to excel just for the joy of excelling. The need for money is the number one motivator in any economy. Remove that need by artificially inflating the value of menial work and the economy WILL falter, and likely eventually collapse. Not immediately, but eventually.

Since anything AND everything will eventually falter and collapse, why not at least allow people the dignity to not have to rely on social programs and the government when they DO have the drive to work but not the skills (or life situation) to "excel"

 

[KitKatMatt]

If it were raised to a point of sufficiency for support, what motivation is there to excel? If flipping burgers is enough to give me a car, a house, healthcare, the latest cellphone, cable TV, a yearly vacation, and food for every meal, what reason could I possibly have for learning to do something more challenging?

I am a college graduate in a relevant field for my location that is booming.

There's a problem, though. They all want five year's experience, no less. No entry level positions whatsoever.

I've been working for minimum wage for years now after graduating. I'm about to start college again to go for ANOTHER degree that MIGHT (read: might, not WILL, but might) give me the opportunity to get a job that isn't minimum wage.

I know people who have two and three degrees who are still working for minimum wage because there are no entry level openings, and they can't afford to move half way across the country to find an entry level job (I am not capable of living on my own so I can't do this either).

I had motivation to "excel". I wanted to do something more challenging. But it's not available at the moment, so do I deserve to not have access to any of those things?

 

[TheGirlOnFire]

I literally said "by taxation" in the text you quoted me. The government is the central organization that manages what to do with the money collected by taxes, which is why I said "the government".

I work. I pay taxes. I will willingly pay more taxes to make sure everyone has all of those things I listed in the other posts.

You're a good egg....


I was brought up to help those who can't....I would gladly pay extra taxes if it means giving someone a break... or better opportunity in life..

Am so glad in Scotland we have free medical care, free education etc

 

[morningstar2651]

Just forcing them to take less money for their labor than they believe it's worth.

That's what insurance companies would prefer. That's not what I'm arguing for.

The high cost of medical insurance in this country is in large part due to the high cost of malpractice insurance - it's the insurance companies that are causing the problem.

 

[morningstar2651]

Am so glad in Scotland we have free medical care, free education etc

That's what Bernie is campaigning for here in the states.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

I literally said "by taxation" in the text you quoted me. The government is the central organization that manages what to do with the money collected by taxes, which is why I said "the government".

I work. I pay taxes. I will willingly pay more taxes to make sure everyone has all of those things I listed in the other posts.

I really don't get why this is so hard for some to understand.

 

[Avid]

... I work. I pay taxes. I will willingly pay more taxes to make sure everyone has all of those things I listed in the other posts.

Would you be willing, instead to give to a charity that did the same thing? That is how it should be! Those with the desire to help actually help. The idea of government charity is unconstitutional. I know people have misused one word in there to allow themselves this indulgence, and then use it to exploit the power that is associated with it, but "promote the general welfare" is NOT the same as "provide what anyone wants, and give it the nickname, welfare."

The basis for this is outside the law of the land which is the US Constitution.

You likely have heard of Davy Crockett the frontiersman, but may not be so familiar with Rep. David Crockett, the US Congressman (who died defending the Alamo.) Read the article about how he discovered a deeper understanding of what I tell you.

It's Not Yours to Give!
A Story of Rep. David Crockett of Tennessee​

http://avidinvestments.com/Crockett.html

I do like having this discussion with you. Please stick with it.

 

[KitKatMatt]

Individual charities are not big enough to help everyone. This is why we have the government. A government should provide to its citizens with their own systems.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

Who is greedy? Is it the doctor who asks $200/hour for his consultation, or the patient who expects the result of that person's million-dollar education (including years in internship, residency, etc.) to be available to him for little or nothing???

The greedy are those who want what others have, but are not willing to pay the cost of obtaining that from the other person!!!

Greed is the art of not having enough nor appreciating what you have. It has nothing to do with wealth or wealth distribution. This politicized idea that wealth, greed or hording has to do with money is shallow partisan crap. The only reason that the politicians equate anything with money is because they can control money and by doing so control the people.

We need to get off the materialism and get back to where value is about the persons around you and not what they drive. What is a driving force in this issue is property and it's the political parties who are pushing this Capitalism/Socialism thing. They point at what someone else possesses and tell you that you deserve that item as if that item will bring you anything other than the idea that you have something in your possession that you now, have to protect and defend.

I just wonder how many shiny new items that are advertized as an essential that a young person would, without any regret throw away to gain a truly giving and forgiving friend. My guess is not as many as there were only a few years ago.

Wealth is happiness. Wealth is healthiness. Wealth is having the unconditional love of someone who would give up all the world claims as wealth to please you and you would reciprocate. That's the one thing in the world that's free and a pleasure to give to those who appreciate you.

 

[Avid]

Individual charities are not big enough to help everyone. This is why we have the government. A government should provide to its citizens with their own systems.

I have regularly asked for a basis for this belief of what a government should provide. I have given examples of what I mean, and provided such backing for my opinions. Can you show where this originates, that people have a right to these things, and the government is required to provide these things?

BTW, and while we are at it, these charities should be all that is necessary, but government has fouled-up the system so much that there are people dependent that should not be dependent on getting something from them. There are important things associated with getting a job that pays enough, but too many are not interested in doing enough to overcome obstacles! It can be done. There are people presently working, all the high-paying hours than they need, and make more a year than they ever did before getting laid-off from their job. I am trying to widen the scope of ideas here, and show how this narrowing of the typical person's ideas can be overcome. If you are truly interested in reversing this situation, send a PM. I'll let you know. It has nothing to do with me, but I can point you in the right direction for finding a higher paying job.