Whither TAW?

[Lukaris]

Ищите "мытарства".

Translation please?

 

[jckstraw72]

he told him to look for мытарства, which is the Slavonic term for the toll houses

 

[Lukaris]

he told him to look for мытарства, which is the Slavonic term for the toll houses

OK , thank you.

 

[Trying_to_be_Orthodox]

@Lukaris

"Toll houses". I couldnt translate it through translator, therefore asked Rus to help. It exists.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I'm sorry, I haven't read all the posts here.

TAW (and the EO posters) seems just slightly different than when I first came, but I have to say, I hope that you all won't leave, or change, or stop posting. I miss ones that don't post much anymore the past several months.

I'm new in the Orthodox Church, and I need something outside of Church. It's almost an hour's drive away for me, the people are nice, but they don't live near here, and I'm seeing that since Pascha there is a lighter and lighter calendar, especially for summer we mostly have just the Divine Liturgy on Sunday. No classes, nothing else.

I need more.

And TAW is MUCH kinder, much safer, and much more reliably Orthodox than the other places online I frequent. I have to watch them, as they don't separate out Orthodox, and there are more voices agreeing with those in the wrong than there are giving corrections to wrong statements. They are not good places for newbies.

I need y'all. I really do.

As far as toll houses - since I'm not sure if that's not the current conversation? Our priest explained the idea during class. He said he wanted us to understand it, but that it wasn't dogma by any means, and a lot of people did not believe it, and it was viewed with a lot of suspicion by some. I've actually found more support in hymnography and writings than I expected, and further back. I guess it's one of those things that is allowed, but not necessarily encouraged to believe or disbelieve? I simply accepted it as a possible understanding.

I am more interested in the Ladder of Divine Ascent, but Fr. M. happened to mention in class the day after I started reading it that he didn't really recommend it to laity, so I put off reading it for now. It's not like I don't have tons of stuff to read anyway. I'll talk more with him later about why not, and I would imagine with the caveat of understanding his reservations - assuming I don't have any inclinations that make it particularly problematic for me - he would probably give me his blessing to read it. I just haven't gotten back to that yet, and figured I'd let him know me better first. He gives me very good advice on other things, so I am confident in his suggestions.

But really - y'all please don't leave. None of you. I hope.

 

[xenia]

My thoughts about Tollhouses are that before Christ "trampled down death by death" and defeated Satan, when people died the demons taunted them and sneered at them and said "you are a sinner and you will go to hell." Now, when a Christian dies and a demon tries this the believer (or even the angel who is with him) can say that Christ has forgiven him and can pass on through.

 

[jckstraw72]

My thoughts about Tollhouses are that before Christ "trampled down death by death" and defeated Satan, when people died the demons taunted them and sneered at them and said "you are a sinner and you will go to hell." Now, when a Christian dies and a demon tries this the believer (or even the angel who is with him) can say that Christ has forgiven him and can pass on through.

exactly -- Christ is the answer. if we repent and receive His forgiveness then we have nothing to fear.

 

[Anhelyna]

Kylissa - I was always told that the Ladder was for reading during the Great Fast.

I always start it - but so far I've never managed to finish it

 

[~Anastasia~]

Kylissa - I was always told that the Ladder was for reading during the Great Fast.

I always start it - but so far I've never managed to finish it

Thank you. That sounds like a good thing.

I will plan to discuss it with Fr. M. next January or so, and maybe I will get through at least part of it.

Thanks for the suggestion. I really want to read more of it, lol.

Although it looks like - I'm guessing the problem might be that some of it is not exactly applicable to "real life" - is that it? It looks like a book with valuable principles, but perhaps not possible to apply exactly?

But I read little of it. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Dorothea]

I'm sorry, I haven't read all the posts here.

TAW (and the EO posters) seems just slightly different than when I first came, but I have to say, I hope that you all won't leave, or change, or stop posting. I miss ones that don't post much anymore the past several months.

I'm new in the Orthodox Church, and I need something outside of Church. It's almost an hour's drive away for me, the people are nice, but they don't live near here, and I'm seeing that since Pascha there is a lighter and lighter calendar, especially for summer we mostly have just the Divine Liturgy on Sunday. No classes, nothing else.

I need more.

And TAW is MUCH kinder, much safer, and much more reliably Orthodox than the other places online I frequent. I have to watch them, as they don't separate out Orthodox, and there are more voices agreeing with those in the wrong than there are giving corrections to wrong statements. They are not good places for newbies.

I need y'all. I really do.

As far as toll houses - since I'm not sure if that's not the current conversation? Our priest explained the idea during class. He said he wanted us to understand it, but that it wasn't dogma by any means, and a lot of people did not believe it, and it was viewed with a lot of suspicion by some. I've actually found more support in hymnography and writings than I expected, and further back. I guess it's one of those things that is allowed, but not necessarily encouraged to believe or disbelieve? I simply accepted it as a possible understanding.

I am more interested in the Ladder of Divine Ascent, but Fr. M. happened to mention in class the day after I started reading it that he didn't really recommend it to laity, so I put off reading it for now. It's not like I don't have tons of stuff to read anyway. I'll talk more with him later about why not, and I would imagine with the caveat of understanding his reservations - assuming I don't have any inclinations that make it particularly problematic for me - he would probably give me his blessing to read it. I just haven't gotten back to that yet, and figured I'd let him know me better first. He gives me very good advice on other things, so I am confident in his suggestions.

But really - y'all please don't leave. None of you. I hope.

Thanks! Well, I wasn't planning to leave, which may be unfortunate for some. I've been an internet chatter for far too many years to cut the apron strings.

We're here for you, Kylissa! I agree with your view on toll houses, and that's usually the standard answer from GO priests. As far as reading the Ladder of Divine Ascent...yeah, that's not usually recommended for lay people, especially those not yet Orthodox and/or new converts. It's usually read by those who have been in the faith for many years, and only through the blessing of their SF's. There is a layman's version of the book, however, that I believe is fine for us lay folk to read. I haven't read it, though.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thanks! Well, I wasn't planning to leave, which may be unfortunate for some. I've been an internet chatter for far too many years to cut the apron strings.

We're here for you, Kylissa! I agree with your view on toll houses, and that's usually the standard answer from GO priests. As far as reading the Ladder of Divine Ascent...yeah, that's not usually recommended for lay people, especially those not yet Orthodox and/or new converts. It's usually read by those who have been in the faith for many, many years, and only through the blessing of their SF's. There is a layman's version of the book, however, that I believe is fine for us lay folk to read. I haven't read it, though.

I keep hearing the advertisement for the layman's version, when I listen to podcasts.

I already have the pdf of the real one though.

And I don't know, perhaps Fr. M. will find it too soon next year for me to read then. As I said, I have plenty to read.

I have a streak back there that always seemed to want to do whatever I was told not to do, but maybe I've outgrown that. Or maybe not entirely. I didn't like the advice he gave me a few times, but I followed it anyway, figuring that was my responsibility if I'm going to come to classes and check out the church. And I've found in each case that he was right, and I quickly saw the benefit of what he advised. I guess he's been doing this longer than I have. I thought at first he didn't know me well enough, and maybe he still doesn't. But he still gives good advice. So I'm fairly comfortable following it. And thankful for his guidance.

 

[Dorothea]

I keep hearing the advertisement for the layman's version, when I listen to podcasts.

I already have the pdf of the real one though.

And I don't know, perhaps Fr. M. will find it too soon next year for me to read then. As I said, I have plenty to read.

I have a streak back there that always seemed to want to do whatever I was told not to do, but maybe I've outgrown that. Or maybe not entirely. I didn't like the advice he gave me a few times, but I followed it anyway, figuring that was my responsibility if I'm going to come to classes and check out the church. And I've found in each case that he was right, and I quickly saw the benefit of what he advised. I guess he's been doing this longer than I have. I thought at first he didn't know me well enough, and maybe he still doesn't. But he still gives good advice. So I'm fairly comfortable following it. And thankful for his guidance.

That's probably the American rugged individualism in us that has a hard time with obedience. Did you say when you were going to be received into the Church, or did you not say?

 

[~Anastasia~]

That's probably the American rugged individualism in us that has a hard time with obedience. Did you say when you were going to be received into the Church, or did you not say?

I haven't even publicly declared my catechumenate, I don't think. But I might as well. I think it's becoming rather obvious.

Fr. M. is satisfied, I think. He says we can discuss it when classes resume and he returns from vacation - which will be in about two weeks.

Of course, the Dormition starts then. And I have some larger concerns to make sure I am addressing properly, but they relate more to politics than doctrine.

I had considered waiting, but I find there are many challenges associated with the growth Orthodoxy has helped me with, and dealing with them without the Sacraments is ... harder than it is meant to be, I think.

So I suspect soon.

 

[Dorothea]

I haven't even publicly declared my catechumenate, I don't think. But I might as well. I think it's becoming rather obvious.

Fr. M. is satisfied, I think. He says we can discuss it when classes resume and he returns from vacation - which will be in about two weeks.

Of course, the Dormition starts then. And I have some larger concerns to make sure I am addressing properly, but they relate more to politics than doctrine.

I had considered waiting, but I find there are many challenges associated with the growth Orthodoxy has helped me with, and dealing with them without the Sacraments is ... harder than it is meant to be, I think.

So I suspect soon.

I'm keeping you and your family in my prayers!

 

[gzt]

I'm fairly agnostic about the tollhouses, but I was rather skeptical based on the reports I had heard, but when I read St Theodora's vision, the main source of the imagery, my opinion definitely became more neutral than antagonistic, because one of the impressions was that former sins would haunt you etc, but they explicitly mentioned that confession completely wipes the books clean. Well, that definitely removes one of my objections to the impression I had gotten.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I'm keeping you and your family in my prayers!

Oh, thanks much for the prayers!

My husband and I have been having very good conversations. Tonight he said something about Greg Laurie having taught about the miracle of Jesus veiling His glory the whole time He was on earth (the veil lifted briefly for the Transfiguration). I'm not sure what Laurie was teaching, but put all together it seemed to deny the human flesh and nature of Christ. So I disagreed, and explained why - that Christ was really born of the Virgin Mary, with human flesh and a human body - though He was of course God incarnate, His body was like ours, and not until after His resurrection did he pass through closed doors and such.

Anyway, we had a good talk about the nature of God, and he agreed with "my view" ... I told him it's not my view, but the Church's. As good as he is at getting the Truth from Scripture, he can still be swayed I guess by a teaching that sounds good. We talked about early heresies - Gnosticism (I am starting to think there are LOTS of Christian gnostics!) and how the Church responded, and I think he appreciated that.

Long story short, (uh-oh, too late! sorry!) I think he appreciated discussing some foundational truth, and I appreciated having it firmly in hand to offer rather than trying to reason my way through it and going down a few blind alleys in the process, which was always what I had to resort to before. Maybe or maybe not ending up at the right conclusion.

So it was a good day. Thank God.

And thanks again for your prayers.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I'm fairly agnostic about the tollhouses, but I was rather skeptical based on the reports I had heard, but when I read St Theodora's vision, the main source of the imagery, my opinion definitely became more neutral than antagonistic, because one of the impressions was that former sins would haunt you etc, but they explicitly mentioned that confession completely wipes the books clean. Well, that definitely removes one of my objections to the impression I had gotten.

That sounds interesting? Thanks for mentioning.

I'm going to read - I hope this is a good source?

St. Theodora's Journey Through the Aerial Toll-Houses

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You can also tell your husband that, thanks to the Orthodox Church we have Trinitarian doctrine, a canon of Scripture, no Arianism or Nestorianism, etc.!

Sounds like you're really getting somewhere with him! Throw some Father Hopko his way! Maybe you could leave Bishop Kallistos's "the Orthodox Church" on his side of the bed 'accidentally!'

Oh, thanks much for the prayers!

My husband and I have been having very good conversations. Tonight he said something about Greg Laurie having taught about the miracle of Jesus veiling His glory the whole time He was on earth (the veil lifted briefly for the Transfiguration). I'm not sure what Laurie was teaching, but put all together it seemed to deny the human flesh and nature of Christ. So I disagreed, and explained why - that Christ was really born of the Virgin Mary, with human flesh and a human body - though He was of course God incarnate, His body was like ours, and not until after His resurrection did he pass through closed doors and such.

Anyway, we had a good talk about the nature of God, and he agreed with "my view" ... I told him it's not my view, but the Church's. As good as he is at getting the Truth from Scripture, he can still be swayed I guess by a teaching that sounds good. We talked about early heresies - Gnosticism (I am starting to think there are LOTS of Christian gnostics!) and how the Church responded, and I think he appreciated that.

Long story short, (uh-oh, too late! sorry!) I think he appreciated discussing some foundational truth, and I appreciated having it firmly in hand to offer rather than trying to reason my way through it and going down a few blind alleys in the process, which was always what I had to resort to before. Maybe or maybe not ending up at the right conclusion.

So it was a good day. Thank God.

And thanks again for your prayers.

 

[gzt]

That's it, but I don't really recommend reading it, as there are far more important issues to think about, like how exactly it works that the world is 4.5 billion years old and life is several hundred million years old.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

gzt,

Are you purposely trying to provoke or just trying to get us to leave TAW with this dating the Earth precisely down to the virtual minutes and seconds, with theories rather than concrete facts? Do you get a chuckle from it or are you really trying to cause strife? Is it a virtue in our Orthodox faith to be divisive? You seem to be going out of your way to stick a fork in our ribs, even putting it under your name? Are you ok?

That's it, but I don't really recommend reading it, as there are far more important issues to think about, like how exactly it works that the world is 4.5 billion years old and life is several hundred million years old.