Whither TAW?

[Kristos]

 

[GregConstantine]

"There you go again jumping to conclusions based on your preconceived beliefs of the person. Stop! No where did I write that. I made a joke at gzt's posting of the picture, there is nothing more to my post than that, just a joke about the picture being posted, not agreement nor disagreement with it and no hidden deep meaning to my joke, not even in some invisible font, so quit reading more into it than that. I AM ORTHODOX, IN GOOD STANDING AND I DO SUBMIT TO CHURCH AUTHORITY! *note: in caps in hopes you will actually read what I write for once and nothing more, not cause I'm shouting.*"

I second that! The same assumptions and judgments were made about me as well!

 

[RKO]

It's not my place to comment here, not being EO, but I can't help it. What I see going on is lots of very faithful orthodox people discussing, maybe occasionally even arguing in the spirit of the propagation of the faith.
My experience is that this is the kindest and most civil internet forum I have been part of, and the fact that I am accepted as a friend here is evidence of that.
People have been doing this since penetecost, even before. I don't see that anybody here has ever had a cause to have truly ill will toward anybody else. we are all human beings and I daresay nobody here is as "quirky" as I am.
keep it charitable and be very glad for what you have here. That's my two cents.
And with that, I'll be back here in the shadows, but as much as is possible on an internet forum, I consider every person on this board to be very decent and a "friend."

 

[gzt]

Part of the thing here is that any sort of disagreement has to constantly be couched with "I SUBMIT TO CHURCH AUTHORITY AND AM ORTHODOX IN GOOD STANDING (NO, DO NOT CALL MY BISHOP)." And then: are you sure you're not a secularist? Are you sure you're not an Episcopalian (again: get over it)? Are you sure you're not under the influence of the LGBT Agenda? Are you sure what you used isn't really a codeword for LGBT Episcopalianism? (seriously, again, get over it) There's something that defines what Orthodoxy is, and I'm sure it's not the same as what's going on in the message baord.

 

[rusmeister]

There you go again jumping to conclusions based on your preconceived beliefs of the person. Stop! No where did I write that. I made a joke at gzt's posting of the picture, there is nothing more to my post than that, just a joke about the picture being posted, not agreement nor disagreement with it and no hidden deep meaning to my joke, not even in some invisible font, so quit reading more into it than that. I AM ORTHODOX, IN GOOD STANDING AND I DO SUBMIT TO CHURCH AUTHORITY! *note: in caps in hopes you will actually read what I write for once and nothing more, not cause I'm shouting.*

"There you go again jumping to conclusions based on your preconceived beliefs of the person. Stop! No where did I write that. I made a joke at gzt's posting of the picture, there is nothing more to my post than that, just a joke about the picture being posted, not agreement nor disagreement with it and no hidden deep meaning to my joke, not even in some invisible font, so quit reading more into it than that. I AM ORTHODOX, IN GOOD STANDING AND I DO SUBMIT TO CHURCH AUTHORITY! *note: in caps in hopes you will actually read what I write for once and nothing more, not cause I'm shouting.*"

I second that! The same assumptions and judgments were made about me as well!

Thanks, guys.
I accept that about you. Could you consider the possibility that I feel pretty much the same way?

Part of the thing here is that any sort of disagreement has to constantly be couched with "I SUBMIT TO CHURCH AUTHORITY AND AM ORTHODOX IN GOOD STANDING (NO, DO NOT CALL MY BISHOP)." And then: are you sure you're not a secularist? Are you sure you're not an Episcopalian (again: get over it)? Are you sure you're not under the influence of the LGBT Agenda? Are you sure what you used isn't really a codeword for LGBT Episcopalianism? (seriously, again, get over it) There's something that defines what Orthodoxy is, and I'm sure it's not the same as what's going on in the message baord.

I never suggested calling anyone's bishop, though I can see how you might have read that into my request to confirm canonic membership (something I still think an entirely reasonable request), and this is the general practice, certainly in Russia, if you want to commune and a priest wants to defend the Chalice. I remember that the Russian priest that chrismated me in California (OCA) gave me an official letter affirmng my legitimate Chrismation (his initiative, not mine) to take with me to Russia to present upon request.
I do think it odd if a person conceals his jurisdiction, and suspicious should contention arise, as it has. It doesn't say anything good about the concealer. In the US, jurisdictions are widespread, and saying that you are in the OCA, or Antiochian archdiocese tells nothing about your specific location.

FWIW, gz, I don't doubt ANYONE's sincerity. I believe and accept that everyone writing here is face-value in terms of intentions. All want to be in communion with the Church. One thing that I think possible, though, and would warn against, if any would hear the warning, is that it IS possible to believe things, or come to believe things, that could in effect break communion, whether we realize it or not. Leo Tolstoy came to very sincerely believe in his Gospel of non-resistance, to the point where he denied that Jesus was the divine Son of God, and as he was a public figure publishing his own gospel, the Russian Church had to eventually publicly state that he was no longer in communion, that he was excommunicant.
That ought to stand as a warning to us. And I think it not impossible in our time. I sure don't want to go there.

 

[Dorothea]

*peeking in* Maybe folks are just taking things too seriously and just need to relax and think of this place as a place to discuss our thoughts and feelings on whatever issues knowing it's just us laypeople venting, sharing, relating, and not anything more than that?

 

[Macarius]

Rus: I owe you an apology for the tone and content of my prior post. There are some things in there that I think do need to be said, and at the moment I'm running out on an errand with my family, but I'll come back and thoroughly edit my prior post. I totally get not having time to reply at the moment, and apologize for my passion.

Please forgive me, a sinner.

 

[gzt]

*peeking in* Maybe folks are just taking things too seriously and just need to relax and think of this place as a place to discuss our thoughts and feelings on whatever issues knowing it's just us laypeople venting, sharing, relating, and not anything more than that?

I agree - things were more relaxed at times in the past. Especially as people generally didn't represent their opinions as The Orthodox Opinion.

rus: Nobody is approaching the chalice on the message board itself, after all. It's quite appropriate for a priest, where somebody is approaching the chalice, to get some kind of confirmation of one's Orthodoxy, but it's a bit much to ask of people here during disagreements.

 

[gracefullamb]

Thanks, guys.
I accept that about you. Could you consider the possibility that I feel pretty much the same way?



I never suggested calling anyone's bishop, though I can see how you might have read that into my request to confirm canonic membership (something I still think an entirely reasonable request), and this is the general practice, certainly in Russia, if you want to commune and a priest wants to defend the Chalice. I remember that the Russian priest that chrismated me in California (OCA) gave me an official letter affirmng my legitimate Chrismation (his initiative, not mine) to take with me to Russia to present upon request.
I do think it odd if a person conceals his jurisdiction, and suspicious should contention arise, as it has. It doesn't say anything good about the concealer. In the US, jurisdictions are widespread, and saying that you are in the OCA, or Antiochian archdiocese tells nothing about your specific location.

1. Absolutely I can accept that you feel the same way I do. I think, and I told you this in PM concerning past discussions and stated as much on the evolution thread, I think there is a lot of talking past each other going on. A lot of each side thinking the other is really stating ABC when in reality they are stating 123. That leads to assumptions about the other side, leaping from statement to a conclusion with little clarification being asked for on what the other side really means by their words. It also leads to the two sides, based on their assumptions, talking about entirely different matters. I hate to use it as an example since this thread wasn't started because of it, though some still refuse to believe it, but the evolution thread is a good example, one side was discussing the the theology the other side the science and you all just went around in circles talking past each other and making assumptions about what the other side believes, while never getting anywhere past frustrated and hurt feelings. That was both sides of that argument doing it not just one side and strangely it was both sides that felt they made their point perfectly and the other side was making assumptions, not making their case, and being rude. Please no one try yet again to convince me this isn't true you'll just be talking to yourself or your own side of that discussion for high fives, I already read that thread with an unbiased eye.

2. I honestly never thought you were asking for anyone to name their bishop for purpose of calling the bishop, but I also understand in this day and age of why people wish to guard their privacy so closely so they don't want even the jurisdiction out their for public consumption. I don't particularly like a lot of information about me in the public eye myself and that was way before the NSA reports and recent reports of several women being harassed and threatened in real life for their opinions and statements online. So I really get why others might be weary of sharing even that little information online.

3. Lastly I ask your's and everyone else's forgiveness for any offense or scandal these interactions have caused. Though I do think you need to consider asking for clarification and tone down the Anathema shouting, I could have been much more charitable in stating so.

Please forgive me a sinner.

 

[rusmeister]

Rus: I owe you an apology for the tone and content of my prior post. There are some things in there that I think do need to be said, and at the moment I'm running out on an errand with my family, but I'll come back and thoroughly edit my prior post. I totally get not having time to reply at the moment, and apologize for my passion.

Please forgive me, a sinner.

No problem, or offense taken. For me, at any rate, a huge gap exists beyween any person and their ideas, and I clearly see how some of my loved ones see some of mine to be kooky, to put it mildly.

I've got my own personal issues running, and am in need of forgiveness myself for so much. I covet your forgiveness as much as anyone's.

I still think the ideas are important, though...

 

[rusmeister]

FTR, I think only three, max four people at TAW know my real name, and I totally appreciate general privacy concerns. But I'm honest about that, and my jurisdiction is as I stated.
Moscow Patriarchate (in the Moscow region itself) and Metropolitan Juvenal (Yuvenalii) for those who missed it.
My priest and confessor is Fr Vyacheslav Perevezentsev (you should've seen his double-take back in '03 when I told him that I came to live as a permanent parishioner! Un-forgettable!!) We are contemporaries almost to the day. (I'm technically older, as I was born prematurely by a month). The man was a student in the direct sense of Fr Alexandr Men'. If you don't know who Men' was, you are impoverished. I strongly recommend that Orthodox Christians find out who Men' was.

 

[gzt]

I have a great admiration for Fr Alexander Men, you are fortunate to have one of his students as a priest and confessor.

 

[RobNJ]

*peeking in* Maybe folks are just taking things too seriously and just need to relax and think of this place as a place to discuss our thoughts and feelings on whatever issues knowing it's just us laypeople venting, sharing, relating, and not anything more than that?

QFT!!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Like I said not too long ago, there is a couple at my parish who are essentially Protestant-Orthodox. They believe in sola scriptura, sola fide, sold gracia, believe once-saved, always saved, see the atonement through Calvinist terms, won't fast, won't go to confession, etc. They were chrismated. ARE THEY ORTHODOX? Well, I think some of us in here would say that their heretical beliefs have put them spiritually in a dangerous place where they shouldn't partake of the chalice. But imagine if they came into TAW and became regular posters? Would you take advice from them? Would you really want their input when you know that THEY don't really know real Orthodoxy? They give me unsolicited advice every time I see them, and I just brush it off. My priest has warned me to avoid their input at all costs.

Ah, at the risk of not wishing to sound judgmental or critical - I am interested in the ways of handling such things - what does your priest do?

Are they allowed to partake of the Eucharist?

I'm more interested in the principle than in this couple's lives or your priest's actions. It's not my business to get in the middle of it. So maybe a better question is - what are the considerations in a case like this, and what should be done?

 

[Kristos]

I'm an excellent speck spotter.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

He has already spoken to them about Protestant nonsense. He also told me that despite their CLAIMS that they never go to confession and trying to talk me out of it, THEY HAVE been to confession!!! And recently in fact! He said they did! He did say that he's going to have a conversation with one of them about fasting.

I don't really know everything about how Father deals with this stuff, Kylissa, because it's very personal, private, with couples. Father did tell me that they weren't living up to their own Protestant stuff because they did come to confession! LOL

Ah, at the risk of not wishing to sound judgmental or critical - I am interested in the ways of handling such things - what does your priest do?

Are they allowed to partake of the Eucharist?

I'm more interested in the principle than in this couple's lives or your priest's actions. It's not my business to get in the middle of it. So maybe a better question is - what are the considerations in a case like this, and what should be done?

 

[gzt]

I'm not a fan of discussing what other people do, discussing with the priest what they do, discussing what the priest said when you discussed with him, etc. We have enough on our own plates.

 

[gzt]

There are certainly some things we can admonish and reprove. In fact, the Bible gives us guidelines for how to do so, particularly in the case of a local congregation. Beyond that, it's out of your hands. Do you get the point I'm making? "What is that to you?" as somebody once said in some book.

It's also not pleasant to be accused of opening the door to the gay agenda or told that the arguments being made - though I rarely make arguments - are straight up Episcopalianism. Deal directly, we're not here to debate Episcopalianism.

EDIT: or that we would be soft on Arianism. Or heresy in general. Or that our loyalty to the Church is suspect. Or, etc - I don't seeing people told what they believe or would do.

 

[gracefullamb]

He has already spoken to them about Protestant nonsense. He also told me that despite their CLAIMS that they never go to confession and trying to talk me out of it, THEY HAVE been to confession!!! And recently in fact! He said they did! He did say that he's going to have a conversation with one of them about fasting.

I don't really know everything about how Father deals with this stuff, Kylissa, because it's very personal, private, with couples. Father did tell me that they weren't living up to their own Protestant stuff because they did come to confession! LOL

I'm sorry I think perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but your priest is not really discussing with you other members confessions or how often they go to confession is he?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

NO, he's not. I have had to speak with him about this couple actively trying to STOP ME from going to confession. They have preached Protestantism straight up at everyone they come in contact with. Sola scriptura, fide, gracia, once saved always saved, I'm already covered for my sins, past, present, and future, and confession is folly, etc. They have worked on me to stop confessing.

They said they don't go to confession. He merely said, "that's not true. They did come to confession like everyone else in the parish did during Lent." That's not improper.

I'm sorry I think perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but your priest is not really discussing with you other members confessions or how often they go to confession is he?