While We're on the Subject of Total Depravity...

[Rolf Ernst]

I ask this:

How can man, who is born without faith and incapable of initiating faith on his own, be demanded by God, who is the only one capable of granting faith, to do something he cannot do?

Is it not like -- asking a man without legs to dance?

"You -- dance!"
"But, I can't; I need some help; help me and I can dance."
"No -- you dance, or you will be punished!"
"For not doing what I cannot do?"
"No -- for disobeying me."
"Square circles, anyone?"

Can you blame a bullet for not going different than the path it was predestined to by virtue of laws of physics?

Of course, you may say that not all are commanded to repent -- only the elect. But, still, the failure to follow a command is what brings about punishment -- and the punishment of God is Hell-fire; so, because the non-elect is not commanded, he therefore gets off without punishment, and -- what? This also makes the implication of Jesus that not all will be saved rather strange: repent or be punished! -- but I just say punished for the heck of it, because nobody really is going to get punished, after all.

Please, try and keep the responses as air-tight and short as possible; this just helps keep things from getting out of control, chasing rabbits, etc.

Cheers,

John

John, do you really believe that because of the inability that came upon man after the fall God must adjust His standards to accomodate those who were now "by nature children of wrath"? Remember that due to the fall, you cannot say that fallen creatures are as God made them. They are as they have become because of sin, and rather than God being under an obligation to pamper them, they are still under obligation to serve Him as before, and He has the right to execute judgment upon them for all their failures to do so. Did you ever complain to your teacher, "Aw, teacher yew
cain't ask me that question I don't knew the answer. You gotta scale it down specially fer me!

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

that anyone is able to obey the Gospel & believe is a testimony of the work of the Spirit in regeneration & God 's grace in election.

What is so amazing, isn't that God saves some, but that God saves any at all.

Those whom God saves, He saves on account of His Son and out of Love for the Son.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I guess Jesus wasn't being fair when He healed some and not others, eh?

 

[reformedfan]

any other view is transparently man- centric hence inherently flawed. (apealing though, that it is)

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Exactly, any other kind of salvation is anthropocentric.

Thanks be to God that He did not leave salvation in the hands of fallen men.

 

[cygnusx1]

Exactly, any other kind of salvation is anthropocentric.

Thanks be to God that He did not leave salvation in the hands of fallen men.

if He did only the strong would survive ......... instead of the weak

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Wasn't that a Jerry Butler song in the late 60's?

"Only the Strong Survive"

 

[reformedfan]

whee! justification thru steroids!!

 

[Received]

Remember that due to the fall, you cannot say that fallen creatures are as God made them.

Actually, I believe I can. God forced them into existence with the knowledge of them being under the curse of Adam's transgression.

And still, we have the command to repent: which is universal according to the Calvinists who have responded to this aspect of the question; how can God make an impossible command? That is, how can God command man, who is born out of faith and incapable of initiating faith on his own, to do something he cannot do? This has nothing to do with the lowering of a standard, but with the law of non-contradiction.

And if the command to repent was directed only towards the elect, why the implication that there will be some lost? Presumably if repentance was directed towards the elect, the elect would fulfill this command. Unless God likes to make empty or deceiving claims.

To me, the knot comes tight when I try to pull it loose.

 

[Godzchild]

Well see now that's why I believe that he enables everyone to believe - that way, when they reject him, they can be held accountable.

 

[BBAS 64]

Well see now that's why I believe that he enables everyone to believe - that way, when they reject him, they can be held accountable.

Good Day, Godzchild

Again what you belive is not the issue, why you belive such things are.

Passage that says:I believe that he enables everyone to believe

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.


No man can ... a univerisal negitive explict inabilty.


Peace to u,

Bill

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

And still, we have the command to repent: which is universal according to the Calvinists who have responded to this aspect of the question; how can God make an impossible command? That is, how can God command man, who is born out of faith and incapable of initiating faith on his own, to do something he cannot do? This has nothing to do with the lowering of a standard, but with the law of non-contradiction.

It's not a contradiction at all. God demands that we do all things to His glory. For it to be to His glory, it must be by His enabling. This does not lessen the requirement that all men trust in Christ, but heightens the fact that many have tried to make their own way but only those who have done it God's way have succeeded. We rely on the power of God, not the power of Man.

 

[Godzchild]

Good Day, Godzchild

Again what you belive is not the issue, why you belive such things are.

Passage that says:I believe that he enables everyone to believe

Joh 6:44No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.


No man can ... a univerisal negitive explict inabilty.


Peace to u,

Bill

I believe that the Father draws them all and enables them all. But not all will accept!

 

[edie19]

What is so amazing, isn't that God saves some, but that God saves any at all.

Those whom God saves, He saves on account of His Son and out of Love for the Son.

Amen to that. I know for a fact that I did nothing to earn salvation and everything to deserve wrath. Yet, God, in His mercy and grace, saved me. I'll never be able to thank Him enough, I'll never understand 'why me.' I can be thankful, but even then must be careful not to assume it was because of something I did - in my gratefulness I must retain humility. As a believer, saved by grace, I can only follow His commands and praise His Holy Name.

 

[Godzchild]

Doesn't anyone think it strange that because of Adam, ALL were made sinners but under CHRIST only the elect are made righteous?

You don't think it's a bit unfair that all are punished for Adam's sin but not all have the opportunity to be redeemed of that punishment?

 

[edie19]

Doesn't anyone think it strange that because of Adam, ALL were made sinners but under CHRIST only the elect are made righteous?

You don't think it's a bit unfair that all are punished for Adam's sin but not all have the opportunity to be redeemed of that punishment?

Like my mom always told me - life isn't fair.

So, no - I don't think it's strange or unfair. God doesn't need to redeem any of us, why should we question that He chooses to redeem some and not others. We're not Him, we can't begin to grasp His perfect plans.

 

[Godzchild]

Because deep inside a mother is the heart of God. And a mother cannot pick and choose which child whe wants over another of her children. Deep in my heart I cannot fathom why God would be any different. He is the perfect parent after all.

You say that life isn't fair...well I believe that God is just and fair! To punish all man kind for one man's sin but then not give EVERYBODY the opportunity for redemption through one man's obedience is not the Father I know!

 

[reformedfan]

Let's say these nice parents had 3 kids & all of the kids SUCKED!! They were murderin', rapin', car stealing', meth makin', dealin' to pregnant women low lifes that spit on their parents whenever they walked into the vicinity & even worse, they all used the family car as a toilet & dad's fave tie as toilet paper.

Would you be surprised if those parents kicked their scummy creepy kids out of the house? Would you expect those parents to jump in there & take the kids death penalty their murderin' rapin' ways earned them?

Wow, we are worse to God, yet Christ took hell for His elect!!

But that example sux, cuz we are not walking around sick in our sins, we're dead in our sins, i can never think of good examples, sorry, just pretend that's theologically correct .

 

[Godzchild]

How about this...those same parents with said crumby kids - has a magic wand to give them a chance to not be crumby anymore but only zapped some of their children and not the others because they felt like it.

Or....

How about they zap ALL THEIR CHILDREN and give them ALL equal chance and left it up to the children to decide.

 

[reformedfan]

zap them into not being sinners? nah, adam ruined that for us all, we all are murderers, etc. in God's sight, we all deserve hell, God chose to save some- not ones that sucked less, whatever ones He picked based on the pleasure of His good will- those He forgave cuzza Christ's atoning death-even though they sucked.