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While We're on the Subject of Total Depravity...

BBAS 64

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SoaringEagle said:
I also can’t help but wonder about the validity of calvies belief that unregenerate man will always use his freedom to resist God. Imagine a man who is an adulterer. His God-given conscience condemns him continually (see Rom. 2:15), but he continues in his adulterous relationship. Thus he is using his freedom to resist God, which calvies say is all he can or will ever do since he is totally depraved. But imagine that he finally breaks off his adulterous relationship due to guilt. Now can it still be said that he has only used his freedom to resist God? No, it cannot. He used his freedom to repent of adultery, and yielded to his God-given conscience. If he can use his freedom to do that, why can’t he, with the help of the Holy Spirit, repent of a lifestyle of rebellion and humble himself before God?

How could someone who has the free choice to remain unrepentant possibly not have the freedom to choose to repent? How could a person have the capacity to choose to become more evil but not have the capacity to choose to become less evil? Merely by choosing to not become more evil is by default, a choice for good. If we can use our freedom to resist God but can’t use it to yield to God, we really have no freedom at all. We’re robots, programmed to do evil, having no freedom. It is utterly impossible to have freedom to resist God if one doesn’t have freedom to yield to God. Calvin himself certainly admitted this fact, writing in his Institutes,


“Nothing is more absurd than to think anything at all is done but by the ordination of God….Every action and motion of every creature is so governed by the hidden counsel of God, that nothing can come to pass, but what was ordained by Him….The wills of men are so governed by the will of God, that they are carried on straight to the mark which He has fore-ordained” (Cal. Inst., book 1, chapter 16, sect. 3).​
At least Calvin was consistent in this respect. He admitted (unlike some modern Calvinists) that there really was no room for free will in this theology. If depraved man can do nothing other than sin, then he has as much free will as a bullet shot from a gun.


Calvinists clearly add to what Scripture states regarding humanity’s depravity and God’s grace. Although unregenerate people are indeed, “dead in [their] trespasses and sins,” hundreds (if not thousands) of scriptures clearly state or imply that spiritually dead people can choose to humble themselves and repent, especially while they are under the influence of the gracious drawing of God’s Spirit. God’s drawing, however, never forces anyone to repent, nor does it change anyone’s will apart from the consent of his heart.

Although Scripture repeatedly decries the sinful state of humanity, at the same time it calls on all people to repent; thus it is obvious that all spiritually dead people still have the capacity to repent. For example, Paul publicly proclaimed, “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent” (Acts 17:30, emphasis added). If Paul believed that people were so depraved that they had no capacity to repent, he would not have said that God was calling all people everywhere to repent, unless he was a deceiver. Moreover, if it were impossible for spiritually dead people to repent, God would be unrighteous to expect all of them to do what they are incapable of doing and then hold them guilty for not doing it.

Like Paul, John the Baptist, Jesus, and all the other apostles preached the gospel, calling on all people to repent (see Matt.3:2; 4:17; 11:20; Mark 6:12; Luke 5:32; 13:3, 5; 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 11:18; 20:21; 26:20; Rom. 2:4: 2 Pet. 3:9). Several times in the book of Revelation, John is amazed that unregenerate people don’t repent while suffering God’s judgments (see Rev. 9:20-21; 16:9, 11). Jesus pronounced woe upon all the people of Chorazin and Bethsaida because they didn’t repent, obviously indicating He believed they had the capacity to repent (see Matt. 11:21). He also declared that the wicked people of Tyre and Sidon, who didn’t repent, would have repented if they had seen miracles like the people of Chorazin and Bethsaida had seen! In both cases, Jesus believed that those who didn’t repent had the capacity to repent and should have repented, in contrast to Calvinists, who believe unregenerate people have no capacity to repent outside of God changing their wills and forcing them to repent (which He only does for some). Thus, Calvinism portrays Jesus as a liar and a deceiver, because Jesus gave all indication that people could do what He knew full well they couldn’t do. This also makes God the Father a liar, as Jesus only spoke His words (see John 12:49).

Jesus expected everyone of His generation to repent, because He stated that the men of Nineveh, who repented at Jonah’s preaching, would rightfully condemn His generation for not repenting. Again, if they had no capacity to repent, He would not have condemned them, as that would make God unrighteous. Moreover, what right would the repentant people of Nineveh have to condemn Jesus’ unrepentant generation? The people of Jesus’ generation could rightly say, “How can you, who by God’s sovereign decree could do nothing other than repent, condemn us, who by God’s sovereign decree could do nothing other than remain unrepentant?”

Thus, the Calvinist, who believes God condemns people for not doing what they are incapable of doing, makes God grossly unjust. God is thus somewhat equivalent to the parent who spanks his baby for not walking, but He is a million times worse. Why? Because to the Calvinist, God tortures people eternally in hell for not doing what they were absolutely incapable of doing.

The Calvinist also makes God ultimately responsible for all the evil in the world. Why? Because God could put an end to all evil by influencing everyone with His irresistible grace, but He sovereignly chooses not to, thus evil remains only because of God’s sovereign choice. Depraved man can supposedly do nothing but sin unless God keeps him from it by choosing to show him His irresistible grace, so the ultimate reason for evil is because God doesn’t keep evil people from sinning.

Calvinists often decry the position of non-Calvinists, accusing them of making man responsible for his own salvation (which is a false accusation). Yet Calvinists make God responsible for the damnation of billions! Clearly, the God of Calvinism hates people even before they are born, when He determines that their eternal fate will be incarceration and agony in hell. If God is solely responsible for the salvation of certain people, He is also solely responsible for the damnation of everyone else, because only He could have rescued them from their fate, but He decided not to do so. And that decision was not predicated on God’s inability to stop sin, but His unwillingness to stop it. Thus God wills sin in select people’s lives. To the Calvinist, man doesn’t stop sinning because he has no choice, but because God, who can stop sin, chooses not to! God is thus even more “totally depraved” than we are!

Calvinists should not object to this point, because Calvin himself believed that Adam fell, not because Adam chose by his own free will to sin, but because God ordained his fall:


God not only foresaw that Adam would fall, but also ordained that he should….I confess it is a horrible decree; yet no one can deny but God foreknew Adam’s fall, and therefore foreknew it, because he had ordained it so by his own decree (Cal. Inst., b. 3, c. 23, sec. 7).​
The Calvinist also portrays God as a very confused God who is actually working against Himself, hating sin and evil, yet promoting the very thing He hates by creating people who have no capacity but to do evil and who are predestined to never change. Moreover, the Calvinist’s God is a hypocrite, as He practices sins that He condemns in others, such as deception and showing partiality.


In summary, the Calvinist makes God a lying, deceiving, bigoted, malicious, unjust, confused hypocrite who is responsible for the world’s evil and who creates people for the expressed purpose of torturing them forever. If any man did the things Calvinists say God does, every person on the earth would rightly consider that man worthy of immediate execution, and certainly not worthy to be worshiped. Who is really robbing God of glory? Is it the non-Calvinist who says that man must yield to God’s Spirit using his God-given free will in order to be saved, or is it the Calvinist, who turns God into a monster?

Unlike the Calvinist who (whether he admits it or not) places the responsibility on God for people’s lack of repentance, Jesus placed the blame on the unrepentant people themselves. He said as He wept over Jerusalem,


O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling (Matt. 23:37, emphasis added).
Notice that Jesus loved them all and wanted them all to repent, but they refused to yield to His love. The Calvinist, however, makes Jesus say, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her, proving that you are totally depraved. I never wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, thus I chose not to grant you My irresistible grace, and I predestined you to eternal damnation. I’m weeping now, not for you, because I’ve hated you from the beginning. Rather, I’m weeping for no good reason. Perhaps I’m weeping for Myself, an unrighteous hypocrite, because I expect people to do what they can’t do and I command people to do what I don’t practice Myself.” The Calvinist, who claims he is zealous for God’s glory, makes God into an immoral, repugnant monster.


Jesus also rebuked the religious Jews, saying, “You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life” (John 5:39-40, emphasis added). Clearly, Jesus believed that people had the capacity to choose to repent or not. This cannot be denied by any honest reader of Scripture.

Have fun with this one. SoaringEagle

Good Day, Soaring eagle

Have fun while you mangle Scripture hardly....

The part I "bolded" that is the second time you have misused that passage at least you quoted it correctly this time. What source have you used to get a Calvinist prespective on this passage, Source PLEASE!

Who or what is Jerusalem?

Who or what are her children?

Again the verb gather is in respect to "her Children" let us stick to the text.

Peace to u,

Bill
 
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frumanchu

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SoaringEagle said:
I can’t help but wonder how God takes pleasure in people who are, against their wills, supposedly regenerated by God’s irresistible grace. They are really nothing more than robots. If they love Him, it is only because they had no choice but to love Him, because they would have preferred to continue hating Him.According to calvinists, that is. This means, of course, that they really don’t love Him, because love is predicated upon choice. Their warm feelings toward Him are pre-programmed; thus true love is impossible.

Do you believe the Father can choose not to love the Son?

If so, then you are arguing that God can choose not to be God.

If not, then according to you the love between the members of the Trinity isn't real love.

Here is the funny part, the joke. I encourage everyone to take a puppet made from a sock, put it on your hand, have it turn and look at him, and then have it say, “I love you!” Does that give you the same feeling as when his spouse or child or loved one says those words? And why not? Because free will has been eliminated. The puppet is only saying what you are making him say.

Here's the punchline: your illustration falls woefully and tragically short of even coming close to being comparable to the issue at hand.
 
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frumanchu

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SoaringEagle said:
That's just my thoughts, I hope it's ok to speak whats on my heart.

and then

SoaringEagle said:
the Calvinist makes God a lying, deceiving, bigoted, malicious, unjust, confused hypocrite who is responsible for the world’s evil and who creates people for the expressed purpose of torturing them forever.

If that's what's on your heart, friend, I think a great deal of prayer is in order.
 
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist

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Godzchild said:
He didn't dumb down parables - the parables are the dumbing down. They can hear - they have ears. The parables are put in ways they understand using analogies in physical life (not spiritual).

All have "ears", but not have "ears to hear".

Jesus said, "he who has ears to hear, let him hear".

As has been pointed out, not all have those ears to hear. Some have ears like the stone idols the phrase was first applied to.
 
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rnmomof7

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SoaringEagle said:
I can’t help but wonder how God takes pleasure in people who are, against their wills, supposedly regenerated by God’s irresistible grace. They are really nothing more than robots. If they love Him, it is only because they had no choice but to love Him, because they would have preferred to continue hating Him.According to calvinists, that is. This means, of course, that they really don’t love Him, because love is predicated upon choice. Their warm feelings toward Him are pre-programmed; thus true love is impossible.



Here is the funny part, the joke. I encourage everyone to take a puppet made from a sock, put it on your hand, have it turn and look at him, and then have it say, “I love you!”

Does that give you the same feeling as when his spouse or child or loved one says those words? And why not? Because free will has been eliminated. The puppet is only saying what you are making him say.

God is not laughing at your joke.

You will excuse me if I say that I think that observation is disrespectful of God as God ?

Was Noah a puppet of God? Abraham? Isaac? Jacob? Moses? The Pharaoh? Joshua? David.? Solomon ? Or were they a part of Gods foreordained plan of Salvation?

Was John the Baptist a puppet? Mary? the apostles? Judas ? Jesus?

Gods sovereignty over people, nations and events is found throughout the Bible . (Pro 21:1** The king's heart [is] in the hand of the LORD, [as] the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will. )
He raised up Nations and He tore them down. He set up leaders and caused wars. Prophecy come true because God has ordained the events prophesied. Rom 13:1 — Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Jhn 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
.

The term KING of Kings is not subject to human permission .

We need to understand how the will of man works.
A man will always will to chose what he prefers.If you hate spinach you will never order it.
Our preferences are placed in us by the creator. He know exactly how we will act in any given circumstance. We do as we will, we make free choices guided by the preferences that we are created with.
Every man chooses exactly what He chooses to do . Every man is fully responsible for those choices.But not one of our choices are a surprise to God..He does not consider the works of men a mystery novel . He wrote it and know how it ends..not by dumb luck ..but by his direct interventions in the affairs of men .

Romans 11:1 "I ask, then, has God rejected his people? Certainly not! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
2God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew....
What then? Israel did not obtain what it sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, Do you not know what the scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? ?
3'Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.'
4 'I have reserved for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.'
5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
6 And if it is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? Israel did not obtain what it sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
8 as it is written: 'God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, down to this very day
8 as it is written: 'God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, down to this very day.'


Gods sovereignty in the affair of nations and people..

The creation of God are not "puppets

A. Humans are self-aware, puppets are not.
B. Humans make choices, puppets do not.
C. Humans use logic, puppets do not.
D. Humans have emotions, puppets do not.
E. Humans have preferences, puppets do not.
F. Humans act in accordance with their preferences, puppets do not.
G. Humans consciously do what is determined for them, puppets unconsciously do what is determined for them.
H. Humans understand why they are doing what they are--they act for a reason; puppets do not.
I. Puppets are determined by physical necessity, humans by moral necessity.


Since the fall men have sought the same thin Eve did .."ye shall be gods" . Men do choose , and men are fully responsible for the choices..and yet every choice is within the will and plan of God and will be used to accomplish His purposes.

Let me ask you something. Is there something the matter with the creator having sovereignty over His creation? Can you grant God the same free will you want for yourself?

Can God choose a man? Or is man sovereign over God?

The problem is that men think God owes them a shot at salvation..when in reality what God owes each of us is hell. He owes us nothing. The only one concerned with "fairness" is Satan . Mercy is not getting what you deserve. If you do anything to earn it it is no longer Mercy

* Rom 9:19** Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? **

* Rom 9:20** Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? ** *

Rom 9:21** Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?


No, God is not amused by your words.
 
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rnmomof7

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Mot hat on

mandrake.gif

This is a reminder that the denominational forums are not debate areas

I will allow civil discussion but not name calling or other violations of rule 1

Thanks



Mot hat off
 
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Godzchild

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Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
All have "ears", but not have "ears to hear".

Jesus said, "he who has ears to hear, let him hear".

As has been pointed out, not all have those ears to hear. Some have ears like the stone idols the phrase was first applied to.

But that's why Jesus spoke in parables and used physical analogies so they could understand.
 
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BBAS 64

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Godzchild said:
But that's why Jesus spoke in parables and used physical analogies so they could understand.

Good Day, Godzchild

I have already posted from Matt 13, as Jesus explained why he used parables. His explaination is in direct conflict to your assertion, why should we disreguard what Jesus said?

Peace to u,

Bill
 
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Godzchild

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BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Godzchild

I have already posted from Matt 13, as Jesus explained why he used parables. His explaination is in direct conflict to your assertion, why should we disreguard what Jesus said?

Peace to u,

Bill

actually it's not. If you read, the desciples asked Jesus why he was speaking in parables and he explained that it was because they couldn't see or hear any other way.
 
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BBAS 64

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Godzchild said:
actually it's not. If you read, the desciples asked Jesus why he was speaking in parables and he explained that it was because they couldn't see or hear any other way.

Good Day, Godzchild


Where do you get "he explained that it was because they couldn't see or hear any other way"

Mat 13:11 And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

Mat 13:12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

Mat 13:13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Mat 13:14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: "'You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.'

Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.

Verse please? Who are the ones that fulfilled Isaiah?

Would you explain this whole passage. I will start to exergete the passage as well.

Peace to u,

Bill
 
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BBAS 64

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Good Day, Godzchild
Parables why?




Mat 13:11 And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.





The knowledge secrets of the kingdom were given to whom, the apostles. Who gave them the knowledge? God the Father gave them the knowledge.



Flesh and blood has not reveled this but the Father which is in heaven.



Mat 13:12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.



The one who has “what” will more be given to the measure of abundance?



The one who has knowledge, more will be given as they are taught of God and God is a great teacher.



The one who has not knowledge, what knowledge he has will be taken away. How will it be taken away?





Mat 13:13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.



Jesus uses the parables “this= verse 12, taking away” to take away knowledge. Why does he do it this way, because they do not see, nor hear, nor understand.



Mat 13:14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: "'You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.



In their case “who’s case”? The ones who do not see, hear or understand. They will NEVER understand, nor perceive.



Mat 13:15 For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.'



Lest they should see and hear and understand, Jesus would have to heal them in direct conflict with Isaiah, so he used parables so they could not and would not see, hear or understand.



Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.



Blessed are the ones who see, hear and understand, as they are taught of God. The parables are used to impart more knowledge, to the ones knowledge has been given. In comparison to the one’s who have not knowledge and never understand, see, or hear in keeping with the prophecy of Isaiah.

Godzchild, I look forward to your take on this whole passage.

Peace to u,

Bill
 
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RochesterFan

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Godzchild said:
All men have the ability to hear and faith comes by hearing!
If this is true, why did Mark make the following point in Mark 4:33?
With many such parables He was speaking the word to them, so far as they were able to hear it; [NAS95]
And why did the Apostle Paul note the following in 1 Cor 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. [NAS95]
 
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Godzchild

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BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Godzchild
Parables why?




Mat 13:11 And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.


And that's why he needed to speak in parables.



Mat 13:12
For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.



The one who has “what” will more be given to the measure of abundance?


Huh? Aren't we talking about parables?



The one who has knowledge, more will be given as they are taught of God and God is a great teacher.

Yes he is.



The one who has not knowledge, what knowledge he has will be taken away. How will it be taken away?

Don't know - were're talking about parables.





Mat 13:13
This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.



Jesus uses the parables “this= verse 12, taking away” to take away knowledge. Why does he do it this way, because they do not see, nor hear, nor understand.


That's why he uses parables because that's the only thing they can understand.



Mat 13:14
Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: "'You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.



In their case “who’s case”? The ones who do not see, hear or understand. They will NEVER understand, nor perceive.


You're right but that's why he spoke in parables because they do not understand.



Mat 13:15
For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.'



Lest they should see and hear and understand, Jesus would have to heal them in direct conflict with Isaiah, so he used parables so they could not and would not see, hear or understand.


No it's the other way around...he uses parables so that they can see as far as Jesus showed them. Remember the parables were about the kingdom of God that they cannot discern so he uses PHYSICAL analogies - why does he use physical analogies?



Mat 13:16
But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.



Blessed are the ones who see, hear and understand, as they are taught of God. The parables are used to impart more knowledge, to the ones knowledge has been given. In comparison to the one’s who have not knowledge and never understand, see, or hear in keeping with the prophecy of Isaiah.


No the parables are not for those who already see because they can already see the kingdom. The parables are for those who don't see.
 
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Godzchild

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If this is true, why did Mark make the following point in Mark 4:33?

Because the parables were spoken in simple language using physical analogies so that they could understand. They cannot understand spiritual things - so is why Jesus described the spiritual in the natural sense (analogies).

And why did the Apostle Paul note the following in 1 Cor 2:14

Because man doesn't understand spiritual things which is the whole reason why God came to earth as a MAN (not a spirit) and spoke in parables using physical analogies. Man can understand physical things - just not spiritual. Jesus comes down to their level, like we would with our children and speaks to them in simple terms that they can understand.

Once they've understood as far as they can see...then choose to believe..then God imputes them with spiritual knowledge - they graduate from mere parables to spiritual inner enlightenment.l
 
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BBAS 64

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Godzchild said:
[/font]

And that's why he needed to speak in parables.





Huh? Aren't we talking about parables?





Yes he is.





Don't know - were're talking about parables.







That's why he uses parables because that's the only thing they can understand.





You're right but that's why he spoke in parables because they do not understand.





No it's the other way around...he uses parables so that they can see as far as Jesus showed them. Remember the parables were about the kingdom of God that they cannot discern so he uses PHYSICAL analogies - why does he use physical analogies?





No the parables are not for those who already see because they can already see the kingdom. The parables are for those who don't see.


Good Day, Godzchild

Yes, we are talking about parables and Jesus him self answered the question. I am amazed that you do not see that verse 11 and 12 are connected.

You said, "Huh? Aren't we talking about parables?"

Again you assert " he uses parables so that they can see as far as Jesus showed them"
But have not shown any Scripture to back it up.

I have explained the passage in Matt in context and shown the relenship between the verses, I will ask one last time would you do the same with this passage verse by verse.


You said: "That's why he uses parables because that's the only thing they can understand"

Jesus said: Mat 13:14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: "'You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.
I am looking forward to your understanding of this whole passage.

Peace to u,

Bill







 
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Godzchild

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Jesus said: Mat 13:14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: "'You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.
I am looking forward to your understanding of this whole passage.


Don't you understand that they do not understand spiritual matters? That's what that scripture was talking about. The desciples asked Jesus why he was talking that way to them and he answered and said that the mysteries of the Kingdom of God was given to them but not to the multitude he was talking to. That's why he was speaking in parables. Why bother? If they weren't going to understand spiritually then why bother? Well maybe, just maybe, they still don't understand spiritually even though Jesus spoke in parables - but maybe Jesus wasnt' trying to make them understand spiritual matters and was only trying to make them understand the physical.

Take a look...there are unenlightened heathens everywhere that understand the concept of a man coming to earth, preaching then dying a terrible death then was risen again. That's the gospel in a nutshell - it's easy to understand in the physical terms. Jesus was a man - he walked the earth and then died. It's really a very simple concept to figure out, even though they don't understand the ins and outs of the spiritual.

Jesus came to earth - not only to die for our sins but to convict the world of sin. He set out commandments and teachings that are tangible for those who are not enlightened yet. If you look at the difference between the writings of the gospels and the writings of the epistals you will see a huge difference. Even though they are all spiritually discerned, the basic concepts of salvation is put in simple terms to convict men of sin. It's enough to show up the evil within them - that's all that is required for them to cry out to be saved (by whom they don't really know...some guy called Jesus...so the bible says). It's at this point that Jesus hears their cries and comes to their aid opens their eyes and says "You want saving...well here I am, can you see me and will you accept my help".
 
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Godzchild

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Look I'm just not seeing what you're seeing. I feel that Jesus spoke in parables for a reason and it wasn't for fun. He could have spoken in more complicated terms but he didn't - there's a reason for it and I believe its so that he can reach the unbelievers who have not been enlightened - I believe this is how they are enlighted through the gospel.
 
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Godzchild said:
Look I'm just not seeing what you're seeing. I feel that Jesus spoke in parables for a reason and it wasn't for fun. He could have spoken in more complicated terms but he didn't - there's a reason for it and I believe its so that he can reach the unbelievers who have not been enlightened - I believe this is how they are enlighted through the gospel.

Good Day, Godzchild

Thanks for the disscussion, I do understand what you believe the issue is why do you belive as you do. Parables were used for a reason that is true Jesus tells us why he used them in Matt 13 a passage you seem unable or unwilling to deal with.

You say "I believe its so that he can reach the unbelievers who have not been enlightened"

There is no scripture that teaches that, with reguards to the parables.

In Him,

Bill
 
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Godzchild

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Yet Calvinists insist that the spirit enlightens people to the gospel before salvation. And I just don't believe this. As far as I can see, it's the gospel that enlightens through the preaching of it. The law and the gospel was given to convict men of sin - The bible doesn't say that the spirit convicts men of sin - but rather it's the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is why we are commissioned to preach it. Now if it was the Holy Spirit going around zapping people then there'd be no need for us to preach the gospel - people would just sit and wait for the Holy Spirit to zap them.
 
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Godzchild said:
Yet Calvinists insist that the spirit enlightens people to the gospel before salvation. And I just don't believe this. As far as I can see, it's the gospel that enlightens through the preaching of it. The law and the gospel was given to convict men of sin - The bible doesn't say that the spirit convicts men of sin - but rather it's the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is why we are commissioned to preach it. Now if it was the Holy Spirit going around zapping people then there'd be no need for us to preach the gospel - people would just sit and wait for the Holy Spirit to zap them.

Good Day, Godzchild

No scripture... wonder why:scratch:

Yet an other assertion "bolded". Please provide a source from a believer in the doctrines of Grace.

Those who are perishing

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


Not surpizing that some here would use "zap" to undermine to work of the creator, as he brings us to belief.:cry:

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


Godzchild you can not beleive "this" that does not surprize me.... sort of a stumbling block for you?

1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

You are not alone.

Peace to u,

Bill
 
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