While We're on the Subject of Total Depravity...

[Godzchild]

Please understand that I'm extremely torn here. I know what my heart says and I know what you're trying to say an it doesn't compute - if you know what I mean. Try not to patronise me - try and understand

Good Day, Godzchild

No scripture... wonder why

Yet an other assertion "bolded". Please provide a source from a believer in the doctrines of Grace.

It is believed by the Calvinists the regeneration happens before belief is what I mean. I don't believe this to be true. You want a scripture - here it is...Acts 2 v 38 The one that says Repent FIRST, believe SECOND, be baptised THIRD and THEN they shall receive the gift of the Holy spirit. Note the order in which this is to take place.

Not surpizing that some here would use "zap" to undermine to work of the creator, as he brings us to belief.

It's the only way that I can explain it - I'm sorry

Joh 6:29

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Note the verse before that one. v 28 Then said they unto him, What shall WE DO that WE MIGHT work the WORKS OF GOD?

Godzchild you can not beleive "this" that does not surprize me.... sort of a stumbling block for you?

No rather I don't understand it the same way that you do. That's ok isn't it?

1Co 1:23

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

You are not alone.

Please show me a scripture that says that ONLY THE ELECT are called.

 

[reformedfan]

Only the elect are effectually called:matt 20:16

repentance comes as a gift from God: Romans2:4

that conversion takes place after the work of the Holy Spirit: Ezek 37:1-14, Acts 16:14

 

[Godzchild]

Only the elect are effectually called:matt 20:16

Doesnt' say that only the elect are called.

repentance comes as a gift from God: Romans2:4

Could this have been via the 'law' ?

that conversion takes place after the work of the Holy Spirit: Ezek 37:1-14, Acts 16:14

[/quote]

It doesn't say they receive the Holy Spirit. could it be the word that opened her heart?

 

[reformedfan]

Doesnt' say that only the elect are called.

you are right, it says "MANY are called." How many are many? Is many all? The call of the Gospel should go out to all, however, only the elect are called effectually- that is, in such a way that they are enabled to heed the call.

Could this have been via the 'law' ??

Huh? Is that what that verse says? No, it says the goodness of God leads you to repentance, putting repentance up there in the same category with other gifts from God like election, which is also based on God's goodness.

It doesn't say they receive the Holy Spirit. could it be the word that opened her heart?

No, the Ezek sez dry bones are made alive by the Holy Spirit, causing an obvious paralell between the dead in their sins & the work of the Spirit in their life, and Lydia had to have God open her heart in order to heed the things spoken by Paul.

 

[Godzchild]

you are right, it says "MANY are called." How many are many? Is many all? The call of the Gospel should go out to all, however, only the elect are called effectually- that is, in such a way that they are enabled to heed the call.

I believe that only few will be chosen because they heed the call.

Huh? Is that what that verse says? No, it says the goodness of God leads you to repentance, putting repentance up there in the same category with other gifts from God like election, which is also based on God's goodness.

I understand that it's God's goodness but God, through his goodness sent the law to convict men of sin and sent Jesus as well. Paul did say that he would not know sin if not for the law. So I ask again could this 'goodness of God' be the law that leads people to repentence?

No, the Ezek sez dry bones are made alive by the Holy Spirit, causing an obvious paralell between the dead in their sins & the work of the Spirit in their life, and Lydia had to have God open her heart in order to heed the things spoken by Paul.

I understand that we are quickened by the Holy Spirit, I'm not refuting that, I've believed it all my life. I'm just questioning the order of which this happens. I'm trying not to put the cart before the horse here. I know what Acts 2 v 28 says that's all.

 

[reformedfan]

I believe that only few will be chosen because they heed the call.

Few heed the call because few are chosen, not the other way around. John 6:44

I understand that it's God's goodness but God, through his goodness sent the law to convict men of sin and sent Jesus as well. Paul did say that he would not know sin if not for the law. So I ask again could this 'goodness of God' be the law that leads people to repentence?.

or, it could just be the goodness of God leading people to repent, through the work of the Spirit in their life.

I understand that we are quickened by the Holy Spirit, I'm not refuting that, I've believed it all my life. I'm just questioning the order of which this happens. I'm trying not to put the cart before the horse here. I know what Acts 2 v 28 says that's all.

John 6:29, John is a pretty clear book on the Calvinist position, (The whole Bible is, but this one book is screamingly so.)

 

[Godzchild]

ok - this is hard

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Godzchild,


In His exchange with Nicodemus, Jesus used the analogy of "new birth" in communicating the doctrine of regeneration in salvation.

Jesus said,
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."(John 3:6)

Did you have anything to do with your causing your physical birth?

Jesus also said that a man cannot see(comprehend) the kingdom of God unless he have first been "born again of the Spirit".

How can one who is dead, and what Paul calls in Romans 8, "of the flesh", "see" the Kingdom of God, when Jesus has already said that flesh begets flesh and Spirit begets spirit?

 

[Godzchild]

I agree with you, I'm not questioning that part but I don't think it's required for them to discern spiritual things to recognise that they need saving. They have the knowledge of good and evil so they know good when they see it and bad when they see it and cry out or help - it is then that the Holy Spirit steps in, I believe.

Also I don't believe that they are spiritually dead - just blinded.

 

[reformedfan]

I don't think it's required for them to discern spiritual things to recognise that they need saving.

if a person doesn't see their sin & their need to turn away from it to Christ in faith &repentance, they won't. A person won't saee their sin unless first the Holy Spirit makes them alive from their dead in their sins state: Col 2:13

They have the knowledge of good and evil so they know good when they see it and bad when they see it and cry out or help - it is then that the Holy Spirit steps in, I believe.

they know good & evil, and have no desire to do good: Romans 3

Also I don't believe that they are spiritually dead - just blinded.

nah, the Bible calls it being dead in your sins, not sick or blind.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Also I don't believe that they are spiritually dead - just blinded.

If they are not spiritually dead, then why would Jesus say they have to be "born again of the Spirit"?

Nicodemus at first asked how one could be born a second time, that they couldn't go back into their mother's womb to be born again.

But Jesus was not talking of physical birth, was He?

No, He was talking about the spiritual birth.

What does "birth" denote? Life!

Jesus says He came to give His sheep, "life".

If one is not alive, then he is....what?

In limbo?

Dead. Not alive.

The Spirit begets spirit, and unless one has the Spirit as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2, he cannot understand the things of the Spirit, and indeed thinks them foolishness.

 

[Godzchild]

If they are not spiritually dead, then why would Jesus say they have to be "born again of the Spirit"?

Nicodemus at first asked how one could be born a second time, that they couldn't go back into their mother's womb to be born again.

But Jesus was not talking of physical birth, was He?

No, He was talking about the spiritual birth.

What does "birth" denote? Life!

Jesus says He came to give His sheep, "life".

If one is not alive, then he is....what?

In limbo?

Dead. Not alive.

The Spirit begets spirit, and unless one has the Spirit as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2, he cannot understand the things of the Spirit, and indeed thinks them foolishness.

Because our old man will be crucified with Jesus. How can a dead man be crucified? Can you crucify dead people?

Romans 6 v 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism INTO DEATH: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk IN NEWNESS OF LIFE. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrectioin: 6 Knowing this, that OUR OLD MAN IS CRUCIFIED with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

 

[Godzchild]

if a person doesn't see their sin & their need to turn away from it to Christ in faith &repentance, they won't. A person won't saee their sin unless first the Holy Spirit makes them alive from their dead in their sins state: Col 2:13

Yes they can see their sin. They have the knowledge of good and evil. They know good when they see it and evil when they see it. When they are confronted with the gospel the goodness of that gospel will show up the evil in them.

they know good & evil, and have no desire to do good: Romans 3

They can desire to not be evil anymore and want to be saved.

nah, the Bible calls it being dead in your sins, not sick or blind.

Can you crucify dead people? We are on DEATH ROW yes I agree...walking the green mile...but when our old man is crucified with Christ in baptism then raised again in newness of life - the old man has to be alive to do this. You cannot crucify dead people.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Kenith

 

[SoaringEagle]

I apologize for the way I used my words. It was wrong, I a was wrong as well. I ask that all of my calvinist brothers to forgive me.

 

[SoaringEagle]

God Opens Hearts for sure. He grants repentance as well.
Yet rather than allowing scripture to balance scripture, why does it appear that my calvinist brothers consistently focus on scriptures that emphasize God’s part in salvation and consistently ignore those that focus on man’s part. They thus conclude that salvation is all the work of God and that man has no responsibility in the matter. For example, many point to Acts 16:14, where we read about Lydia listening to the preaching of Paul: “And a certain woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.”

“See!” the Calvinist exclaims. “God opened Lydia’s heart! That is just another way of saying that God showed Lydia His irresistible grace!”

Because such an interpretation stands in absolute contradiction to what thousands of scriptures say about God and salvation, the one who wants to harmonize Acts 16:14 with the rest of the Bible comes up with a better interpretation: Luke is simply emphasizing God’s part in salvation. God succeeded in doing to Lydia’s heart what He desires to do in everyone’s heart. The reason He succeeded in Lydia’s heart is because she, unlike some others, first submitted to listen to Paul’s preaching, and then yielded to the Holy Spirit’s conviction and drawing. Lydia (the supposedly totally-depraved “worshiper of God”) believed.

In the very same chapter in Acts, Luke clearly reveals that man has a part to play in his salvation. When the Philippian jailer asked what he must do to be saved (see Acts 16:30), Paul didn’t respond, “You can’t do anything! You may only be saved if it is God’s preordained will, and if it is, He will show you His irresistible grace and you will be regenerated and given faith!” Rather, Paul told the jailer, “Believe [something you must do] in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household” (Acts 16:31).

Paul could make this promise to the jailer and his entire household, because Paul knew that salvation was open to anyone who would believe in the Lord Jesus. Paul then “spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house” (Acts 16:32), because “faith comes by hearing” (Rom 10:17). They all believed, were saved and received baptism.

Here is how a Calvinist must understand the salvation of the Philippian jailer: When the jailer asked what he must do to be saved, he was obviously not yet under the influence of God’s irresistible grace, or else he would already have been regenerate and would have already received the sovereign gifts of faith and repentance. Thus he was still totally depraved, always using his freedom to resist God. (That being so, we must wonder why a totally depraved person is sincerely asking what he must do to be saved. If the Calvinist says it is because this totally depraved person is under conviction from God, it must be that God is bestowing “resistible grace” rather than “irresistible grace.” Yet the totally depraved sinner, according to calvies, will always use his freedom to resist God, so he would never sincerely seek to be saved. This jailer, however, was obviously sincerely seeking.)

When Paul told the jailer to believe in the Lord Jesus and he would be saved along with his household, Paul didn’t know if the jailer was predestined to be saved or not, and so he must have been thinking to himself, “I hope this guy is one of the predestined ones and that God is just about to bestow His irresistible grace upon him, because what I’ve just told him to do is absolutely impossible for him to do. I’ve actually deceived him, giving him a false hope if he’s not predestined to be saved. I also hope that all the members of his household are predestined to be saved and that God is about to bestow His irresistible grace on them as well, otherwise I’ve deceived the jailer about them also. Perhaps I should have just told him the truth about his total depravity and God’s irresistible grace.” How could any consistent and thoughtful Calvinist tell people that they will be saved if they believe in the Lord Jesus without having such thoughts go through his mind?

 

[SoaringEagle]

God does predestine things. That is clear. But where we disagree is whether or not the eternal destiny of His creation is predestined. I want you to listen to what I'm about to say, if YOU WILL. When a man impregnates a woman, his seed, which is a part of him, is released and enters a womans womb, and evolves after God formed that seed into a baby in the mothers womb, and becomes mans child. Well, in the very same way when God creates a man or woman, he takes that seed and forms it into a person, and breathes life into it and it becomes HIS CREATION. His breath is part of HIM in the same way the seed of man is part of him. So every created being is HIS CREATION. And humans are especially unique in God's eyes because we are out of all his created things the only beings that can relate and have communion with God. We are the only ones that are created in the image and likeness of GOD. So, we are a part of Him. This is why there is a battle going on for every soul. No matter whether one is bill gates, or a homeless guy on the streets. God shows personal favortism to no one. Period. What the enemy what's to do is get part of God (souls) seperated from Him forever. The enemy isn't more powerful than God by no means. It's just that when God intervenes in a lost souls life, that soul has then has the ability to yield to the initiation of God and be empowered to come to repentance and believe the word that was preached, or resist and harden n his own heart. The unbeliever is to co-operate with the Holy Spirit. That's why man is not born again by human will (own ability), the new birth is not of himself (own ability), and doesn't seek God (by His own ability). He can't cook up some faith on His own, but ahh, he can recieve the word of His salvation. In his fallen state, his mind is at enmity with God.
That's why God has provided a way where all can come to repentance. Thats why God is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pet. 3:9
That's why the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. Titus 2:11. Thats why we read in
Ac 14:27 Now when they had come and gathered the church together, they reported all that God had done with them, and that He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles. Yes that's right, the door of faith, has been opened to the Gentiles. All Gentiles, because God commands all men everywhere to repent. Act 17. Then we read in Joh 10:7 - Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. Then we read in Joh 10:9 -
I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. So it's clear that Jesus is the Way to be saved. He is the door, to come out of darkness and into the light. He is the door to be changed from a wolf to a sheep. Speaking of sheep, seal, Scripture says that Jesus leaves the ninety nine for the one lost sheep. Mark 16:15 Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE. Now check out this next verse, for the truth shall triumph over the lies and deception. 16 He who believes... shall be saved. But he who does not believe will be condemned. So tell me seal, does this say God is completely responsible, or does man cooperate with the initiation of the Holy Spirit. Calvinists say that man is made alive then believes. So they are saved before they even hear the gospel right. Yet the bible says clearly that faith comes... by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Lets look at Eph. 1:13. In Him you also trusted, AFTER YOU HEARD the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also HAVING BELIEVED, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.
So it's clear the gospel comes first. Jesus said In John 6 My words are spirit, and they are life. The apostle Paul said in 1 Thess. 1:5-6 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance... 6 and you became followers of us and the Lord, HAVING RECIEVED THE WORD . So it's clear that the Word comes first. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. The word of God comes in power, and in the Holy Spirit. 2 Thess. 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, that they might be saved. 11 for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be be condemned WHO DID NOT RECIEVE THE TRUTH< but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Can you say they didn't have a choice? those who perish, do so because they did not receive the love of the truth. They didn't recieve the love of Jesus. For if they would have recieved the love of Jesus, they would love Him in return. But they didn't.
2 Pet. 1:22 says Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth THROUGH THE SPIRIT... 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, THROUGH THE WORD OF GOD which lives and abides forever. So though when we were dead in our tresspasses, we are able to able THROUGH THE SPIRIT. Though we were sons of disobedience, Eph. 2:18 For through Him we both have access BY ONE SPIRIT to the Father. Its only by the Spirit that we can recieve the Word of God, and through that we God gives the increase and bamm. You have a miracle called new birth.

So its clear that man plays a part in His salvation. Yet, this His part is just Co-operate. His co-operation is not considered a work. It's not something that's done of his own ability. The word comes first, the Spirit initiates the drawing and makes it possible to repent, believe which is mans part in the co-operation, and man passes from death to life. He walks through the door by the drawing of the Holy Spirit, and comes out of darkness into light and is made a new creation, and then becomes a sheep. Forced love is indeed, rape. For God to command all men every to repent and then not provide the means for which one can do so is unjust. That's like commanding a 3 month old baby to walk, and not supernaturally providing a way where he can and then spanking the baby. God is not so Sovereign that He does something against His nature. There are things God cannot do. Plain and simple. One being, God cannot lie. God can't act any way that's conflicts with His nature. Ps.97:2 Righteousness and Justice are the foundation of His throne. And when the lost stand before Him, He will not judge unrighteously or unjustly. This is why Rev. 20 says that the dead were judged ACCORDING TO THERE WORKS.

 

[reformedfan]

that anyone is able to obey the Gospel & believe is a testimony of the work of the Spirit in regeneration & God 's grace in election.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

The only part man plays in his salvation is.....sinning.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

A man dead in sins and trespasses, totally depraved, born dead and blind, what Paul calls "the natural man", cannot co-operate with what he does not comprehend and finds to be foolishness.

1 Corinthians 2:14;
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.