While We're on the Subject of Total Depravity...

[akolouthein]

Now wait a minute!!! What I believe does not in anyway threaten God's sovereignty. The problem I'm having is understanding how the calvinist God can be just. When because of Adam ALL MEN were put under sin, but, according to Calvin's interpretation...ONLY THE ELECT are under Christ. That...to me...makes the Calvin God to be someone who's not true to his Word - and I'm afraid that's not my Father!

No one can threaten God's sovereignty but you are questioning it. It is natural, I think, to fear these doctrines when they are presented because it goes against our "fluffy clouds , dancing through the fields barefoot, singing" ideal of God only. Most people with this image only, seem to detest how God punishes people in the Old Testament. How are we any different than those people in God's eyes? Just remember what you think is "just" may very well not line up with the what God sees as "just". People can't keep from wrapping words around what they think it means. That is the full sovereignty of God. To not question what a word means to us but what does it mean to God?

 

[Godzchild]

No one can threaten God's sovereignty but you are questioning it.

God's sovereignty is not in question for me. Calvinist's interpretation of that sovereignty is.

It is natural, I think, to fear these doctrines when they are presented because it goes against our "fluffy clouds , dancing through the fields barefoot, singing" ideal of God only.

There is not fear, only bewilderment that God can be brought down to our level and painted into an unjust monster by Calvinists.

Most people with this image only, seem to detest how God punishes people in the Old Testament.

I couldn't care any less how he punishes people. My point is that God gives all a chance of salvation because he is just. Calvinists don't believe this.

How are we any different than those people in God's eyes? Just remember what you think is "just" may very well not line up with the what God sees as "just".

God is true to his word. He doesn't say by one man all were under sin and by one man all have the opportunity for salvation - just for fun!

People can't keep from wrapping words around what they think it means. That is the full sovereignty of God. To not question what a word means to us but what does it mean to God?

Is that it? So you question my motives towards God instead of defending your beliefs? Why? Can you not defend them? Can you not answer my questions? Probably not...which is why you're resorting to questioning my motives re:God's sovreignty. I notice Calvinists do that a lot when they're stuck for an answer.

 

[akolouthein]

God's sovereignty is not in question for me. Calvinist's interpretation of that sovereignty is.



There is not fear, only bewilderment that God can be brought down to our level and painted into an unjust monster by Calvinists.



I couldn't care any less how he punishes people. My point is that God gives all a chance of salvation because he is just. Calvinists don't believe this.



God is true to his word. He doesn't say by one man all were under sin and by one man all have the opportunity for salvation - just for fun!



Is that it? So you question my motives towards God instead of defending your beliefs? Why? Can you not defend them? Can you not answer my questions? Probably not...which is why you're resorting to questioning my motives re:God's sovreignty. I notice Calvinists do that a lot when they're stuck for an answer.

For clarification state the exact question you are asking and I will do my best to find an answer for you.

I have to ask you a question. Do you think people who have the view that God can create someone to be destroyed, gets some kind of sick pleasure from it? Abslolutely not. I grew up Arminian so accepting these doctrines were very hard for me then I started asking myself "According to these doctrines, am I seeking what I think is just or what God says is just? Have I REALLY put God's sovereignty above all my earthly ideals of fairness and equality?" I had to answer no to those questions. There is just too much scripture to support the fact that God creates, He destroys, and God's will is not our own. We are God's creation. Interpret Romans 9 however you want but the truth is there. God can choose to do with his creation how He chooses and who are we to question the maker on why he chooses to destroy some and not others?

 

[Godzchild]

Question one: How can a dead man be crucified with Christ if they're already dead?

Question two: Romans 5 v 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life. How does the calvinist view of 'only the elect are called' reconcile with the fact that God clearly states that all were offered the free gift of salvation?

 

[Received]

Do you have biblical truths that state God is for our questioning His motives?

Why would I want to? I approve of them -- that is, how I interpret God, with specific reference to Romans 9, how my exegesis goes, makes me hold respect and awe for the way He handles things. I'm sure you mean -- do you have biblical truths that state God is for our questioning the motives of those who interpret Him differently? Why, I'll leave that one up to you.

Try to understand Romans 9 how you want but I realized what it said before I even started beliving Calvinistic doctrines.

I surely can understand why; I too was in the same situation. Then I realized that being qualified to write by God's spirit does not automatically make one's thoughts less than obscure. And even more importantly -- learning this point from life --, I realize that the external is not the internal: the way things appear by no means is necessarily the way things are. That's how I arrived at completely different conclusions regarding this specific passage than you did.

Take it easy,

John

 

[akolouthein]

Question one: How can a dead man be crucified with Christ if they're already dead?

Question two: Romans 5 v 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life. How does the calvinist view of 'only the elect are called' reconcile with the fact that God clearly states that all were offered the free gift of salvation?

Question One: (just to clarify) are you speaking of the death that is caused by sin?

Question Two: I encourage you to read the verses previous and prior to verse 18. The use of the word all , according to the orignial greek, can be translated as All types of men. It stresses that not just the Jews are elected unto salvation. In verse 19 we see this:

19For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

Notice that it clarifies here that the many will be made righteous, not all men.

 

[akolouthein]

Why would I want to? I approve of them -- that is, how I interpret God, with specific reference to Romans 9, how my exegesis goes, makes me hold respect and awe for the way He handles things. I'm sure you mean -- do you have biblical truths that state God is for our questioning the motives of those who interpret Him differently? Why, I'll leave that one up to you.



I surely can understand why; I too was in the same situation. Then I realized that being qualified to write by God's spirit does not automatically make one's thoughts less than obscure. And even more importantly -- learning this point from life --, I realize that the external is not the internal: the way things appear by no means is necessarily the way things are. That's how I arrived at completely different conclusions regarding this specific passage than you did.

Take it easy,

John

No I meant what I asked since you stated that you believed God is for our questioning His motives.

Do you believe the Bible is the written Word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit and without error in the orignial manuscripts? Do you believe the Bible is the infallible and divine authority in all matters of faith and life? If you do not then this answers why you will cannot see the truths in the Calvinistic doctrines

 

[Received]

Well, it speaks of the many as the sinners, and reflexively speaks of the many as those who will be made righteous. The many predicates the "sinners" in the same way that it predicates the ones made righteous. Thus, because the "sinners" is considered to be all men (unless you can admit that some men were not affected by Adam's sin), the many that refers to the ones who will be made righteous also refers to all men.

 

[Received]

Do you believe the Bible is the written Word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit and without error in the orignial manuscripts? Do you believe the Bible is the infallible and divine authority in all matters of faith and life? If you do not then this answers why you will cannot see the truths in the Calvinistic doctrines

But this presumes that the Calvinists are the only ones considering the entirety of scripture in fair light; as insinuated previously, non-Calvinists do the exact same thing. Cf. Geisler's Chosen But Free, Walls' Why I am Not a Calvinist. Yes, one does not have to be a Calvinist in order to condlude differently the theological concepts of the massiveness of scripture. Note that this massiveness has a lot to do with the disagreement.

 

[Godzchild]

Question One: (just to clarify) are you speaking of the death that is caused by sin?

Don't you know? Calvinists are the ones who insist that man is spiritually dead. That would mean then that their spirit man is dead (because of sin - yes) and that this 'dead man' is crucified with Christ. So my question is...how can a dead man be crucified?

Question Two: I encourage you to read the verses previous and prior to verse 18. The use of the word all , according to the orignial greek, can be translated as All types of men. It stresses that not just the Jews are elected unto salvation. In verse 19 we see this:

19For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

Notice that it clarifies here that the many will be made righteous, not all men.

Ok so that means then that not all of man kind were made sinners either then? So there are some men who do not fall under Adam's curse?

You can't have it both ways. You can say "Well the scripture says 'many' are made righteous" without saying "Many were made sinners". Which is it? Is all mankind under Adam's curse or not?

 

[akolouthein]

Well, it speaks of the many as the sinners, and reflexively speaks of the many as those who will be made righteous. The many predicates the "sinners" in the same way that it predicates the ones made righteous. Thus, because the "sinners" is considered to be all men (unless you can admit that some men were not affected by Adam's sin), the many that refers to the ones who will be made righteous also refers to all men.

Paul is speaking to the church in these passages so Paul is addressing a room of believers. He is clarifying for the church that God's free gift came apon all (believers/elect) unto justification of life. Paul is not standing in the middle of a brothel here proclaiming salvation for all men. If I am standing in a church and say "will all men please come up front?" am I asking every man in every corner of the earth to come up front?

 

[akolouthein]

Don't you know? Calvinists are the ones who insist that man is spiritually dead. That would mean then that their spirit man is dead (because of sin - yes) and that this 'dead man' is crucified with Christ. So my question is...how can a dead man be crucified?



Ok so that means then that not all of man kind were made sinners either then? So there are some men who do not fall under Adam's curse?

You can't have it both ways. You can say "Well the scripture says 'many' are made righteous" without saying "Many were made sinners". Which is it? Is all mankind under Adam's curse or not?

I aplogize for my lack of proper study of the full context of this scripture before responding to it. Allow me to show you something I've found taken from http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/9170/MANN1.HTM.

The text to focus on would be this:

[size=+0]Primary New Testament Passage[/size]

[size=+0]So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. Rom 5:18-19[/size]​

[size=+2]T[/size][size=+0]hese verses basically show that all men represented by Adam must have imputed to them the consequence of Adam's sin, and likewise all the men represented by Christ must have imputed to them the consequence of His obedience. As "all" represented by Adam are made sinners, so "all" represented by Christ are made righteous. Further, those represented by Christ are designated in this passage by the same two terms in question -- "all" and "many."[/size]


[size=+0]The important detail to note here is this: The "all" or "many" who were represented by Christ in His "one act of righteousness" (which can be none other than His substitutionary death for their sins) are the same group of people who are "made righteous" and receive "justification of life" (i.e., elect believers). In other words, according to this passage, all for whom Christ died shall also be justified. He was "made sin" (i.e., a sacrifice for sin) for those who "become the righteousness of God in Him" (2 Cor 5:21). The two are inseparably linked together; the one inevitably follows the other. As Paul wrote earlier in the same letter, Christ was "delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification" (Rom 4:25). Clearly Christ died for the same group of people who will be justified. Again, that the benefits of the death and resurrection of Christ have an equal extent is evident from Romans 8:32-35 (where they are both put together):[/size]

[size=+0]He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ?[/size]​

[size=+0]According to Scripture, Christ died for us, was raised for us, and intercedes for us ("God's elect" v. 33)! Therefore, it is quite clear that when Paul used the terms "all" and "many" in Romans 5:18-19, he used them to designate a select group of people -- those "chosen" by God for salvation (2 Thes 2:13).[/size]

I dare not respond to your first question without proper research this time. You are totally correct in showing my lack of thought concerning all men being made sinners.

 

[akolouthein]

Don't you know? Calvinists are the ones who insist that man is spiritually dead. That would mean then that their spirit man is dead (because of sin - yes) and that this 'dead man' is crucified with Christ. So my question is...how can a dead man be crucified?

Is this the scrpiture you are referring to Godzchild?

Romans 6:5-11

5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that our old self[a] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For one who has died has been set free[b] from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9We know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Please understand I am new to belief in Calvinistic doctrines and just want anyone who desires to understand them, to know how I was led into them. I am by no means a biblical scholar but I'll sure try to analyze whatever questions you have and explain them to the best of my ability. I find alot of times what we really want to know gets lost in the "debate" issue. I have found solid texts from Calvinistic scholars to help me the most, apart from God's word

 

[Godzchild]

Your other post is too long winded for me. Would you care to break it down for me? Thanks.

No I was referring to Romans 6 v 3 - 7

Note verse 7 also - "Those who are dead are freed from sin". That would mean that all these dead corpses running around are sin free? Nope! Not until they are crucified with Christ they aren't

 

[akolouthein]

Your other post is too long winded for me. Would you care to break it down for me? Thanks.

No I was referring to Romans 6 v 3 - 7

Note verse 7 also - "Those who are dead are freed from sin". That would mean that all these dead corpses running around are sin free? Nope! Not until they are crucified with Christ they aren't

Hmm, well if you are interested in trying to figure it out, the post is very worthwhile to try and read but if you would like a summary he is saying that in that passage the words All and many refer to the elect. He gives a very good description of why.

LOL thats cute talking about the dead running about. I'll sure check on that for ya.

 

[akolouthein]

No I was referring to Romans 6 v 3 - 7

Note verse 7 also - "Those who are dead are freed from sin". That would mean that all these dead corpses running around are sin free? Nope! Not until they are crucified with Christ they aren't

Let me tell you what it seems to mean to me on the surface without studying it deeply. It seems that in this verses it is speaking of our spiritual death in baptism. In the act of baptism our old selves is washed away , so to speak. Your question was how are the dead crucified? I think by crucifixtion Paul may be referring to the death that Christ died , we died with him. The same spiritual death spoken of in Baptism is the same death referred to in the crucifixtion with Christ. He died and when He rose , Christ was no longer in the form of man. Christ risen may appear man but he is not. The Christ on the cross bled and died. The risen Christ was the spiritual manifestation of His trueself. This is really a symbolic death, the death Paul speaks of. He is not referring to a corpse.

 

[tigersnare]

Romans 9:19-24

19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Bottom line is alot of people that have problems with total depravity or any of the points of Calvinism. People have a real problem placing God's sovereignty above all. God tells us that we are His creation, He does with us what He wills. Hard to accept? The truth is hurts. I don't think anyone should look at any scripture without saying to themselves "I am placing God's sovereignty and will first when examining this passage?"

Solid Reply , I love how Paul just pulls the plug on these objections and gets to the real problem. We dont' want to let God be God.

 

[Godzchild]

Let me tell you what it seems to mean to me on the surface without studying it deeply. It seems that in this verses it is speaking of our spiritual death in baptism. In the act of baptism our old selves is washed away , so to speak. Your question was how are the dead crucified? I think by crucifixtion Paul may be referring to the death that Christ died , we died with him. The same spiritual death spoken of in Baptism is the same death referred to in the crucifixtion with Christ. He died and when He rose , Christ was no longer in the form of man. Christ risen may appear man but he is not. The Christ on the cross bled and died. The risen Christ was the spiritual manifestation of His trueself. This is really a symbolic death, the death Paul speaks of. He is not referring to a corpse.

Good try but unfortunately it's not really how I see it. When we are regenerated through baptism into Christ - the old man is crucified WITH CHRIST then buried WITH CHRIST then glorified. So again - I ask you...how can a dead man be crucified?

 

[Godzchild]

Hmm, well if you are interested in trying to figure it out, the post is very worthwhile to try and read but if you would like a summary he is saying that in that passage the words All and many refer to the elect. He gives a very good description of why.

LOL thats cute talking about the dead running about. I'll sure check on that for ya.

Well according to what I actually read in the bible itself - Paul doesn't say it's about the 'elect' at all. He's talking about mankind.

 

[akolouthein]

Good try but unfortunately it's not really how I see it. When we are regenerated through baptism into Christ - the old man is crucified WITH CHRIST then buried WITH CHRIST then glorified. So again - I ask you...how can a dead man be crucified?

Here is the scrpiture you are referring to:

Romans 6:6
6We know that our old self[a] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

Firstly the word is not dead, it is old in greek it is palaios which means : antique, that is not recent, worn out, old.

Are you having a hard time understanding the concept that before we are regenerated we are a different person spiritually? When we are Baptised, our old selves (that is our old sinful nature) is crucified with Christ.

Take the next passages
Romans 6:7-11

7For one who has died has been set free[b] from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9We know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Here it shows that our old selves die because you must die to be set free and then Paul goes on to say that the death Christ died, he died for sin (which is what we do when Baptised) but the life he lives he lives to god. So it states that you must be baptised and crucified with Christ to live for God.