While We're on the Subject of Total Depravity...

[akolouthein]

Well according to what I actually read in the bible itself - Paul doesn't say it's about the 'elect' at all. He's talking about mankind.

What many scholars say peple to help them understand passages is that they must read all chapters in that book to understand the total context of that book of the Bible. In the same Book just 3 chapters later you find this:
Romans 8: 28-32

28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[g] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. 31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be[h] against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God's elect?

The author is saying it is clear that if you read before and after the scripture you are concerned about, you see that Paul is speaking to a body of believers. You notice it never says that ALL men are called. Why would paul say in a prior passage that God Justifies ALL men meaning every single man in the whole world and then turn around and say that those God called will be justifed? If what you believe is true then surely this passage would have to state god called everyone. The word "those" signifies a selection. Because Paul is speaking to a body of believers (the Elect) he refers to the group as such throughout the whole book.

In this passage Paul lets you know who he is talking to.
Romans 7:4

4Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.

The underlined portion proves he is speaking to the Saved/Elect

 

[Godzchild]

So I'm right then! The old man isn't dead at all!

 

[tigersnare]

So I'm right then! The old man isn't dead at all!

Or you are just being stubborn and missing the forest for the trees. You seem to be so hung up on your little riddle that you are missing what the rest of scripture is telling you about God's soverienty in our regeneration.

 

[akolouthein]

So I'm right then! The old man isn't dead at all!

What does that prove to you? The old man is not literally dead. Dead in sin refers to the fact that without salvation, we ARE dead because we ARE going to hell, which is the death of not just body but soul. We are made alive in Christ.

 

[Godzchild]

What many scholars say peple to help them understand passages is that they must read all chapters in that book to understand the total context of that book of the Bible. In the same Book just 3 chapters later you find this:
Romans 8: 28-32

28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[g] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. 31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be[h] against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God's elect?

The author is saying it is clear that if you read before and after the scripture you are concerned about, you see that Paul is speaking to a body of believers. You notice it never says that ALL men are called. Why would paul say in a prior passage that God Justifies ALL men meaning every single man in the whole world and then turn around and say that those God called will be justifed? If what you believe is true then surely this passage would have to state god called everyone. The word "those" signifies a selection. Because Paul is speaking to a body of believers (the Elect) he refers to the group as such throughout the whole book.

In this passage Paul lets you know who he is talking to.
Romans 7:4

4Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.

The underlined portion proves he is speaking to the Saved/Elect

He was not talking about the elect when he said that Jesus died for ALL. sorry!

 

[Godzchild]

What does that prove to you? The old man is not literally dead. Dead in sin refers to the fact that without salvation, we ARE dead because we ARE going to hell, which is the death of not just body but soul. We are made alive in Christ.

It means we are not totally depraved and calvinists can stop with the 'living corpses' comments.

 

[Godzchild]

Or you are just being stubborn and missing the forest for the trees. You seem to be so hung up on your little riddle that you are missing what the rest of scripture is telling you about God's soverienty in our regeneration.

No I just know what the bible says.

We are not totally depraved - because we were not 'dead'.

 

[akolouthein]

No I just know what the bible says.

We are not totally depraved - because we were not 'dead'.

I really do not think you are putting time and consideration into reading these posts and the scripture contained within.

If you do not consider that you have died to sin, you cannot claim to be saved by God's grace. It is critical to realize this. You are taking scripture out of context by trying to say the scripture means we literally die. Within total deprevity it is said that man is born dead in sin. Romans 6:7 states that one who has died has been set free from sin. You realize by saying we were never dead in sin is to deny scripture?

I noticed you did not say -because we were not dead to sin. THAT is what the Bible does say. We were dead to sin. If you can say that were were not dead to sin then you can prove we were not totally depraved. Which, you cannot do.

 

[Godzchild]

I meant - before we were saved - we were not dead men. Not now! I know we are dead to sin now because our old man was crucified with Christ - but that's the point....the Old man has to be alive first to be able to be crucified. So I ask you again - how can a dead man be crucified?

 

[tigersnare]

I meant - before we were saved - we were not dead men. Not now! I know we are dead to sin now because our old man was crucified with Christ - but that's the point....the Old man has to be alive first to be able to be crucified. So I ask you again - how can a dead man be crucified?

Well, we are born spiritually dead. It's not as though our "old man" of flesh is actually dead and rotting, he is alive in well. Though he is unable to respond to God because his spiritual awareness of God and his kingdom is absent. So when God breathes spiritual life into us, our regeneration, we are then baptised into the death of Christ and the "old man" is crucified in order that the body of death might be brought to nothing. The old man's flesh is alive and well, it's his spirit that is dead. His spirit is eternal, therefore his spirit is not crucified, it is merely awaken by regeneration. His flesh is of course not eternal is has been given the death blow, though he will continue to struggle with it until Glory.

Whew...fellow Calvinsist, check my work and make sure there is not heresy contained in this.

 

[akolouthein]

I meant - before we were saved - we were not dead men. Not now! I know we are dead to sin now because our old man was crucified with Christ - but that's the point....the Old man has to be alive first to be able to be crucified. So I ask you again - how can a dead man be crucified?

Before I respond any further, I ask you to take the question and expound on it. You say "how can a dead man be crucified" anyone who studies the scripture to help you can see that the death referred to is the death of the old self , not a physical death. We can see the dead man is referring to the old self also. What translation are you using that says "a dead man is crucified?" If you can show that scripture and translation that may help.

Are you reading this as a LITERAL dead man or LITERAL death? If you are not then you are simply asking a philosophical question which has no place in a theological discussion. IF you are asking a philosophical question my immediate answer would be "How does a man walk on water?" "How does a man rise from the dead (LITERALLY)?" "How is a man swallowed by a fish and live?" "How does a man get 2 of every creature on earth into a boat?" All of these answers are Because God willed it.

Well, we are born spiritually dead. It's not as though our "old man" of flesh is actually dead and rotting, he is alive in well. Though he is unable to respond to God because his spiritual awareness of God and his kingdom is absent. So when God breathes spiritual life into us, our regeneration, we are then baptised into the death of Christ and the "old man" is crucified in order that the body of death might be brought to nothing. The old man's flesh is alive and well, it's his spirit that is dead. His spirit is eternal, therefore his spirit is not crucified, it is merely awaken by regeneration. His flesh is of course not eternal is has been given the death blow, though he will continue to struggle with it until Glory.

Whew...fellow Calvinsist, check my work and make sure there is not heresy contained in this.

You are right on friend. I do not see a bit of heresy contained .

 

[edie19]

Well, we are born spiritually dead. It's not as though our "old man" of flesh is actually dead and rotting, he is alive in well. Though he is unable to respond to God because his spiritual awareness of God and his kingdom is absent. So when God breathes spiritual life into us, our regeneration, we are then baptised into the death of Christ and the "old man" is crucified in order that the body of death might be brought to nothing. The old man's flesh is alive and well, it's his spirit that is dead. His spirit is eternal, therefore his spirit is not crucified, it is merely awaken by regeneration. His flesh is of course not eternal is has been given the death blow, though he will continue to struggle with it until Glory.

Whew...fellow Calvinsist, check my work and make sure there is not heresy contained in this.

As I read Scripture and understand my creeds and confessions, your response is appropriate and not at all heretical.

edie

 

[Godzchild]

Before I respond any further, I ask you to take the question and expound on it. You say "how can a dead man be crucified" anyone who studies the scripture to help you can see that the death referred to is the death of the old self , not a physical death.

I'm not talking about a physical death.

We can see the dead man is referring to the old self also. What translation are you using that says "a dead man is crucified?" If you can show that scripture and translation that may help.

It doesn't say that 'a dead man is crucified' that's the point! Are you not understanding my question?

Are you reading this as a LITERAL dead man or LITERAL death?

No Spiritual death. The Calvinists believe that mankind is spiritually dead and depraved. I'm arguing the fact that mankind isn't spiritually dead at all - for if they were then how could they have been crucified with Christ?

If you are not then you are simply asking a philosophical question which has no place in a theological discussion. IF you are asking a philosophical question my immediate answer would be "How does a man walk on water?" "How does a man rise from the dead (LITERALLY)?" "How is a man swallowed by a fish and live?" "How does a man get 2 of every creature on earth into a boat?" All of these answers are Because God willed it.

You're not understanding the question.

 

[akolouthein]

I'm not talking about a physical death.



It doesn't say that 'a dead man is crucified' that's the point! Are you not understanding my question?



No Spiritual death. The Calvinists believe that mankind is spiritually dead and depraved. I'm arguing the fact that mankind isn't spiritually dead at all - for if they were then how could they have been crucified with Christ?



You're not understanding the question.

The scripture says mankind is spiritually dead until they are crucified with Christ in Baptism. This is not only a Calvinistic view this is a Biblical view. You are questioning the scripture by arguing the fact that mankind isn't spiritually dead at all. If mankind is not spiritually dead then ALL mankind is spiritually alive. Do you belive all men in the world are already saved then? Everyone is going to heaven? If you want me to show you, again, the scriptures that state man is born spiritually dead then I will.

 

[Godzchild]

Well, we are born spiritually dead.

If we are born spiritually dead then how are we crucified with Christ?

It's not as though our "old man" of flesh is actually dead and rotting, he is alive in well. Though he is unable to respond to God because his spiritual awareness of God and his kingdom is absent.

They have the knowledge of good and evil.

So when God breathes spiritual life into us, our regeneration, we are then baptised into the death of Christ and the "old man" is crucified in order that the body of death might be brought to nothing.

Right - now we're getting somewhere! So you're admitting that our old man isn't dead until he is crucified with Christ?

The old man's flesh is alive and well, it's his spirit that is dead.

But did'nt you just say that he's crucified with Christ?

His spirit is eternal, therefore his spirit is not crucified, it is merely awaken by regeneration.

Hang on a minute - I don't believe that. I believe that my spirit was crucified with Christ, buried and rose again with Christ in baptism (spiritual baptism).

His flesh is of course not eternal is has been given the death blow, though he will continue to struggle with it until Glory.

This I agree with.

 

[Godzchild]

The scripture says mankind is spiritually dead until they are crucified with Christ in Baptism.

Show me the scripture that says the mankind is spiritually dead. And how can a dead man be crucified?

This is not only a Calvinistic view this is a Biblical view. You are questioning the scripture by arguing the fact that mankind isn't spiritually dead at all.

You are yet to show me biblical proof of this claim.

If mankind is not spiritually dead then ALL mankind is spiritually alive.

Yes they are - and corrupted and distorted and in need of crucifying and then being risen again with Christ.

Do you belive all men in the world are already saved then?

Nope - they are lost and corrupted by sin.

Everyone is going to heaven?

Nope

If you want me to show you, again, the scriptures that state man is born spiritually dead then I will.

You didn't do it in the first place - friend. Show me a scripture ANY SCRIPTURE that specifically states that man is spiritually dead and I will accept it.

 

[akolouthein]

Show me the scripture that says the mankind is spiritually dead. And how can a dead man be crucified?



You are yet to show me biblical proof of this claim.



Yes they are - and corrupted and distorted and in need of crucifying and then being risen again with Christ.



Nope - they are lost and corrupted by sin.



Nope



You didn't do it in the first place - friend. Show me a scripture ANY SCRIPTURE that specifically states that man is spiritually dead and I will accept it.

Woot! here we go:

Ps. 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who
speak lies go astray from birth.

Ps. 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my
mother conceived me.

Gen. 6:5 (before the flood) Then the LORD saw that the
wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent
of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Gen 8:21: (after the flood) for the intent of man’s heart is evil
from his youth;

Ephesians 2:1-3: And you were dead in your trespasses and
sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course
of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of
the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3
Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh,
indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by
nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Colossians 2:13: And when you were dead in your
transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made
you alive together with Him,

Romans 6:1-3: What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Revelation 1:4-6: John to the seven churches that are in Asia:

Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.


To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.




Check those out and see if they make sense to you.

I want you to REALLY look at this passage:

Romans 6:11
11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

You're contradiciting yourself. You just stated all men are spiritually alive. You cannot have one without the other. You must be dead to be made alive.

 

[Godzchild]

Woot! here we go:

Ps. 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who
speak lies go astray from birth.

Doesn't say we are spiritually dead.

Ps. 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my
mother conceived me.

Again - not spiritually dead.

Gen. 6:5 (before the flood) Then the LORD saw that the
wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent
of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Not spiritually dead.

Gen 8:21: (after the flood) for the intent of man’s heart is evil
from his youth;

Not spiritually dead.

Ephesians 2:1-3: And you were dead in your trespasses and
sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course
of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of
the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3
Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh,
indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by
nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Isn't this talking about our flesh? We are dead in sin - flesh wise? (on death row - matter of speaking)

Colossians 2:13: And when you were dead in your
transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made
you alive together with Him,

Talking about flesh again?

Romans 6:1-3: What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

This scripture is speaking AFTER the fact. I do not deny that we are dead to sin now - we were crucified with Christ - therefore we are dead to sin and alive to God. But what does this have to do with an unbeliever.

Revelation 1:4-6: John to the seven churches that are in Asia:

Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.

Jesus is God made flesh - therefore he was firstborn of the flesh. We are talking about spiritual death here not flesh.

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Yes lovely

Check those out and see if they make sense to you.

I want you to REALLY look at this passage:

Ok

Romans 6:11
11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

This isn't in dispute! We are NOW dead to sin and alive to God. But before when we were sinners - what was our 'spiritman' doing? What he dead - if so...then how could this 'dead man' be crucified if he is already dead?

You're contradiciting yourself. You just stated all men are spiritually alive. You cannot have one without the other. You must be dead to be made alive.

That's right we do have to be dead to be made alive - but during the regeneration process our 'oldman' is PUT TO DEATH - crucified with Christ THEN he is made alive. Now again...I ask you...how can a DEAD MAN be crucified if he's already dead?

 

[akolouthein]

Doesn't say we are spiritually dead.



Again - not spiritually dead.



Not spiritually dead.



Not spiritually dead.

I wanted you to see these passages to show that man is born into sin. To be born into sin is to be born spiritually dead.

Isn't this talking about our flesh? We are dead in sin - flesh wise? (on death row - matter of speaking)

It is talking about a spiritual death.To be dead in sin is to be dead in sin spiritually. The consequences of being spiritually dead is eternal life in Hell. What part of you is sent to Hell? Spirit or flesh? It is indeed the spirit. Remember God regenerates our spirit.

Talking about flesh again?

If you notice it says dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcison of your flesh... What is circumcision of the flesh? Baptism. It is saying when you were not saved (dead in transgressions) and not Baptised (uncircumsied of the flesh). So it is indeed talking about being spiritually dead.

This scripture is speaking AFTER the fact. I do not deny that we are dead to sin now - we were crucified with Christ - therefore we are dead to sin and alive to God. But what does this have to do with an unbeliever.

There is a big difference in being dead IN sin and dead TO sin. We are born dead IN sin. When we are saved and baptised we are dead TO sin because sin no longer has dominion over us. If you say someone or something is dead to you that means it no longer means anything to you. For example in some countries a family member can be outcast and the family will actually say that person is dead TO them. Does that mean the person is literally dead? NO , it means that person is no longer considered a part of their body of family. A person who is dead IN sin is not considered a part of the body of Christ.

Jesus is God made flesh - therefore he was firstborn of the flesh. We are talking about spiritual death here not flesh.

No no, Adam was the firstborn of the flesh. Jesus Christ was the first born of the DEAD not the flesh.

[/u][/b]

This isn't in dispute! We are NOW dead to sin and alive to God. But before when we were sinners - what was our 'spiritman' doing? What he dead - if so...then how could this 'dead man' be crucified if he is already dead?

Again we are dead TO sin not dead IN sin.

That's right we do have to be dead to be made alive - but during the regeneration process our 'oldman' is PUT TO DEATH - crucified with Christ THEN he is made alive. Now again...I ask you...how can a DEAD MAN be crucified if he's already dead?

Because we are born dead IN sin, our salvation and Baptism frees us from the bonds of sin and we are made new. A dead man can be crucified because he is DEAD TO GOD before he is made new. The Bible is the Word of God. To be dead and be crucifed means God considers you dead to Him before you are crucified with his son by coming to salvation and Baptism.

 

[Godzchild]

I wanted you to see these passages to show that man is born into sin. To be born into sin is to be born spiritually dead.

But the passages do not say that they are born spiritually dead. You added that in. What it does say, is that we are born in sin...this I don't disagree with.

It is talking about a spiritual death.To be dead in sin is to be dead in sin spiritually. The consequences of being spiritually dead is eternal life in Hell.

Sorry - this doesn't work. How can a spiritually dead person LIVE eternity in hell if they are dead? How can a spiritually dead person be crucified with Christ?

What part of you is sent to Hell? Spirit or flesh? It is indeed the spirit. Remember God regenerates our spirit.

Yes it is...but it would not suffer very much if it's already dead

If you notice it says dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcison of your flesh... What is circumcision of the flesh? Baptism. It is saying when you were not saved (dead in transgressions) and not Baptised (uncircumsied of the flesh). So it is indeed talking about being spiritually dead.

The circumcision is spiritual not physical. That scripture is talking about the flesh - our flesh is circumcised by the HOly Spirit (ie quickened). No one is disputing that our flesh is as good as dead. Our spirit man is alive until it's crucified with Christ.

There is a big difference in being dead IN sin and dead TO sin. We are born dead IN sin.

In the flesh - yes.

When we are saved and baptised we are dead TO sin because sin no longer has dominion over us. If you say someone or something is dead to you that means it no longer means anything to you.

I agree but what about our spiritman being crucified with Christ?

For example in some countries a family member can be outcast and the family will actually say that person is dead TO them. Does that mean the person is literally dead? NO , it means that person is no longer considered a part of their body of family. A person who is dead IN sin is not considered a part of the body of Christ.

That's nice but you don't understand that our spiritman isn't dead - he's been risen again AFTER he was crucified with Christ...which means our spiritman DIED with Christ's crucifixion. How can our spiritman die when he's already dead?

No no, Adam was the firstborn of the flesh. Jesus Christ was the first born of the DEAD not the flesh.

Yes the flesh!!! Jesus Christ was always a spirit.

Again we are dead TO sin not dead IN sin.

Yes whatever.

Because we are born dead IN sin, our salvation and Baptism frees us from the bonds of sin and we are made new. A dead man can be crucified because he is DEAD TO GOD before he is made new. The Bible is the Word of God. To be dead and be crucifed means God considers you dead to Him before you are crucified with his son by coming to salvation and Baptism.

Ok so how can a dead man be crucified? Please answer me that one thing. Also if we are spiritually dead then how on earth can man be walking around without the breath of life in them that God breathed into Adam! That is how Adam was made a living soul! - These people are alive - they have the breath of life in them...but they are corrupted and in need of crucifixion with Christ. How can one crucify a dead guy?