While We're on the Subject of Total Depravity...

[akolouthein]

But the passages do not say that they are born spiritually dead. You added that in. What it does say, is that we are born in sin...this I don't disagree with.

I'm not adding to scripture I told you it says we are born IN sin. One must see that being born in sin is to be born dead IN sin if you referrence these scriptures with other scriptures presented. Remember you always check scripture WITH scripture. I no more added this in then you do when you say we are born dead IN sin in the flesh

Sorry - this doesn't work. How can a spiritually dead person LIVE eternity in hell if they are dead? How can a spiritually dead person be crucified with Christ?

Yes, it does work. You are considered spiritually dead because you ARE going to hell IF you are spiritually dead. You are dead IN sin when you are crucified with christ. You are dead TO sin after you are crucified.

Yes it is...but it would not suffer very much if it's already dead

The Bible says differently. It says these souls will be in torment and the bible ALSO says they are born dead in sin. You are not checking scripture with scripture. Look you cannot just take a passage out of the Bible and decide what its total implications are without referencing it with the rest of scripture.

Our spirit man is alive until it's crucified with Christ.

No no no. That is a totally unbiblical statement and I ask you provide scripture to support it. Don't tell me you don't know of the scriptures that say we are made alive in Christ. We are Spiritually made alive in Christ and not until we are dead in sin can we be alive in Christ. One logically follows the other.

In the flesh - yes.

So you are saying that when we are dead TO sin in Christ, that does not mean we are spiritually alive in Christ?? If we are dead to sin in the flesh then we must be alive in the flesh in Christ? Then if we are only alive in the flesh with Christ then when when our body dies our infusion with Christ dies also.

I agree but what about our spiritman being crucified with Christ?

What about it?

That's nice but you don't understand that our spiritman isn't dead - he's been risen again AFTER he was crucified with Christ...which means our spiritman DIED with Christ's crucifixion. How can our spiritman die when he's already dead?

You are referring to the soul as the "spiritman". You are saying our Souls DIED in Christ's crucifixion? you have it all wrong. You are not acknowledging the fact that dead IN sin is different than dead TO sin.......

Yes the flesh!!! Jesus Christ was always a spirit.

You seem confused biblically..... Go tell your pastor that Jesus Christ was always a spirit and see what he says.

Yes whatever.

My favorite quote of your last post . Not only do you show totaly disregard for what I'm saying by not acknowleding the difference be being dead IN sin and dead TO sin but you show you could give a flip even if I am right. You are not even debating sensibly. You are responding with "Yes whatever?" Is that an acknowledgement or not.

Ok so how can a dead man be crucified? Please answer me that one thing. Also if we are spiritually dead then how on earth can man be walking around without the breath of life in them that God breathed into Adam! That is how Adam was made a living soul! - These people are alive - they have the breath of life in them...but they are corrupted and in need of crucifixion with Christ. How can one crucify a dead guy?

I answered this already. You've got your mind totally wraped around the flesh. I urge you to see what the Bible says about concentrating on the flesh. I'm going to spell this out.... The breath of Life is mans SOUL. It never says that our SOUL is dead. It says that we are spiritually dead. Spiritually dead means that we are dead to GOD. Our SOUL never dies, it either lives in Heaven or Hell when our body dies. The souls in Hell will cry out for their soul to die and cease to exist. You said Christ has always been a spriit. How can one crucify a spirit guy????

 

[tigersnare]

I hate to have to pull the trump card here but....Augustine vs. Pelagius. Are you familiar with this "Godz child"?

 

[akolouthein]

I'm going to give you this scripture one more time Godzchild. I don't care how much you try you cannot deny that there is a difference between being dead IN sin and dead TO sin. Keeping that in mind:

Ephesians 2:1-7

1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4But[b] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Paul says VERY clearly. We were dead in sin. You said show me one scipture that says we were born dead in sin and you will accept it. Your defense to the scripture that proves it is this is a flesh death. Our flesh is alive until we die an earthly death. God tells us we will die one death in the flesh. SO if you defense were true that this is representative of a flesh death then you are saying God is a liar according to this scripture:

Hebrews 9:27
27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Don't even try to tell me this is God referring to a spritual death....

 

[Godzchild]

Ok so you don't see the difference between the natural man and the spirit man?

I'm so confused now!

I was trying to ask you - how a dead man can be crucified. If you insist that the spirit man is dead then please explain the crucifying dead people part.

 

[Godzchild]

Oh and Christ is God made flesh - therefore he is 100% flesh and 100% spirit.

 

[akolouthein]

Ok so you don't see the difference between the natural man and the spirit man?

I'm so confused now!

I was trying to ask you - how a dead man can be crucified. If you insist that the spirit man is dead then please explain the crucifying dead people part.

I'm sorry you're confused . I answered your question on how a dead man can be crucified. Because it is a spiritual death not a fleshly death. If you continue to believe that the death referred to is a fleshly death, you will never get it. I've provided plenty of scripture that shows it is a spiritual death so there is no further explantion.

Oh and Christ is God made flesh - therefore he is 100% flesh and 100% spirit

Christ WAS made flesh. He WAS both flesh and spirit. NOW Christ is in spiritual form because he must be so to reign alongside the Father in Heaven.

2 Corinthians 2:15
16From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer.

 

[Godzchild]

I'm sorry you're confused . I answered your question on how a dead man can be crucified. Because it is a spiritual death not a fleshly death. If you continue to believe that the death referred to is a fleshly death, you will never get it. I've provided plenty of scripture that shows it is a spiritual death so there is no further explantion.

But I was talking about the spiritual death. I'm not talking about the flesh at all. That's why I'm confused. You seemed to be trying to convince me of something that I'm not talking about.

Christ WAS made flesh. He WAS both flesh and spirit. NOW Christ is in spiritual form because he must be so to reign alongside the Father in Heaven.

He was both spirit and flesh at the same time.

2 Corinthians 2:15
16From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer.

No because he's only spirit now.

 

[akolouthein]

But I was talking about the spiritual death. I'm not talking about the flesh at all. That's why I'm confused. You seemed to be trying to convince me of something that I'm not talking about.

I thought it was clear you were saying that before we are crucified with Christ in Baptism that the death in sin is a death of the flesh , thus your question "How can a dead man be crucified." I have contended that the death prior to Baptism is a spiritual death in sin. After we are saved and Baptised we are no longer dead in sin , we are dead to sin. Sin no longer has dominion over us.

He was both spirit and flesh at the same time.



No because he's only spirit now.

Correct.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Godzchild]

I thought it was clear you were saying that before we are crucified with Christ in Baptism that the death in sin is a death of the flesh , thus your question "How can a dead man be crucified." I have contended that the death prior to Baptism is a spiritual death in sin. After we are saved and Baptised we are no longer dead in sin , we are dead to sin. Sin no longer has dominion over us.

I was speaking of our 'spiritman' being dead and then him being crucified with Christ in baptism. Not the flesh.

 

[akolouthein]

I was speaking of our 'spiritman' being dead and then him being crucified with Christ in baptism. Not the flesh.

I wish I had the time to chat alot tonight, its been a long day. But I will ask, where did you get this "spiritman" from? Is it something you were taught? If you can explain to me where you heard it and define it for me that might help me see what you are saying.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Rolf,

All I'm saying is that it is contradictory to demand men to repent when they cannot do this. Yes, this means it is contradictory to demand men to be held accountable. How can God, who holds faith and is responsible for granting men faith sufficient unto repentance, demand a man to repent when He is the one holding the power? Again, the man who commands the cripple to dance -- insofar as there is the command to dance/repent, this command is nonsensical.

Received, you have dug your heels in against truth and justice.

Truth: The wickedness of man cannot lower the high, holy demands of the creator over His creation.

Justice: God has the right to exact judgment against men for all their transgressions irrespective of their inability because of their fallen condition.

I have nothing further for you but this, "There is no wisdom nor understanding against the Lord." You need to realize that your objection against Him will not profit you anything.

 

[Godzchild]

I wish I had the time to chat alot tonight, its been a long day. But I will ask, where did you get this "spiritman" from? Is it something you were taught? If you can explain to me where you heard it and define it for me that might help me see what you are saying.

It's slang for 'spiritual body'.

1 Cor. 15 v 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

v 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

No because he's only spirit now.

Sorry, but that is not correct, nor is it Biblical.

Jesus is forever "theanthropos", the God-man. Jesus did not shed his human body after Resurrection. At the Ascention Jesus was still Divine and Human, and will remain so with the Elect as King of Kings and Lord of Lords for all eternity.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

1 Cor. 15 v 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

Not to be picky, but the "celestial bodies" Paul is talking about are stars and planets, and the "terrestrial" are physical bodies on earth of humans, animals, etc.

 

[akolouthein]

Sorry, but that is not correct, nor is it Biblical.

Jesus is forever "theanthropos", the God-man. Jesus did not shed his human body after Resurrection. At the Ascention Jesus was still Divine and Human, and will remain so with the Elect as King of Kings and Lord of Lords for all eternity.

Would you mind providing me some scripture associated with this? I'm not questioning it just filling curiosity. I would love to learn more about it and thanks! I love learning something new here every day.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Would you mind providing me some scripture associated with this? I'm not questioning it just filling curiosity. I would love to learn more about it and thanks! I love learning something new here every day.

Grace and peace to you.

Sure.

First, let's start with the Resurrection.

You agree with Jesus was Resurrected in a real, physical body, right?

John 20:26-28

26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Did Thomas put his fingers into a spirit or a real physical body?

Luke 24;
36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.[f] 41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?” 42 So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb.[g] 43 And He took it and ate in their presence.



The Ascension

Mark 16;
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

Luke 24;
50 And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them. 51 Now it came to pass, while He blessed them, that He was parted from them and carried up into heaven. 52 And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53 and were continually in the temple praising and[j] blessing God. Amen.[k]

Acts 1;
Jesus Ascends to Heaven

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Acts 7;
54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

When Jesus Ascended into heaven, did He ascend as a spirit or in His Resurrected body?

 

[akolouthein]

Sure.

First, let's start with the Resurrection.

You agree with Jesus was Resurrected in a real, physical body, right?

John 20:26-28

26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Did Thomas put his fingers into a spirit or a real physical body?

Luke 24;
36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.[f] 41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?” 42 So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb.[g] 43 And He took it and ate in their presence.



The Ascension

Mark 16;
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

Luke 24;
50 And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them. 51 Now it came to pass, while He blessed them, that He was parted from them and carried up into heaven. 52 And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53 and were continually in the temple praising and[j] blessing God. Amen.[k]

Acts 1;
Jesus Ascends to Heaven

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Acts 7;
54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

When Jesus Ascended into heaven, did He ascend as a spirit or in His Resurrected body?

Thank you very much. Yes it certainly shows he ascended in His resurrected body. So we must assume he is still in the flesh even though Christ is now in Heaven? Or is there any scripture that states he remained in the flesh after sitting at the right hand of the father? Would God keep his son in the flesh so that he may appear to us at the end of times in the flesh or is there any possibility Christ is spirit while in Heaven and will become flesh to appear to us again?

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Thank you very much. Yes it certainly shows he ascended in His resurrected body. So we must assume he is still in the flesh even though Christ is now in Heaven? Or is there any scripture that states he remained in the flesh after sitting at the right hand of the father? Would God keep his son in the flesh so that he may appear to us at the end of times in the flesh or is there any possibility Christ is spirit while in Heaven and will become flesh to appear to us again?

While there is no specific passages that say in iron literal terms that Jesus remains in His Resurrected body after the Ascension, we can infer that from other passages, such as the angel saying Jesus would return just as He left, Stephen recognizing the distinction between God the Father and the Son, as well as other passages describing the Second Coming and Judgment of the quick and the dead.

John says,

1 John 3
1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God![a] Therefore the world does not know us,[b] because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

When Jesus entered time and took on human flesh, He then became a unique Being, both 100% Divine and 100% Human. That did not change at the Resurrection or the Acension, and there is no warrant to think otherwise.

Plus, we have all the OT Promises that God will dwell among us, for eternity.

That is revealed in all it's splendor in John's Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

When you have the time, I would suggest you do a study on Resurrection and Glorification.

As John says, we do not know exactly what we will be like in our glorified resurrected bodies, but we will be like Him.

 

[akolouthein]

While there is no specific passages that say in iron literal terms that Jesus remains in His Resurrected body after the Ascension, we can infer that from other passages, such as the angel saying Jesus would return just as He left, as well as other passages describing the Second Coming and Judgment of the quick and the dead.

John says,

1 John 3
1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God![a] Therefore the world does not know us,[b] because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

When Jesus entered time and took on human flesh, He then became a unique Being, both 100% Divine and 100% Human. That did not change at the Resurrection or the Acension, and there is no warrant to think otherwise.

Plus, we have all the OT Promises that God will dwell among us, for eternity.

That is revealed in all it's splendor in John's Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Well thank you so much for teaching me something today .

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Well thank you so much for teaching me something today .

Thanks be to God