While We're on the Subject of Total Depravity...

[BBAS 64]

ok - you've done that. Now deal with the next bit

Good Day, Godzchild

Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Godzchild]

Ok - who is this 'you' he's talking about? Who is he addressing?

 

[justjan]

I don't believe that man is TOTALLY depraved.

I will get back to the other. This is by far the most important point in my opinion.

Where do you have scriptural support for the idea that man isn't totally depraved?

Think about Adam and Eve in the garden before the fall. They had a relationship with God and He walked with them. The earth and the universe were good and we know this because God said it was.

Adam and Eve had a choice to obey God or attempt to be equal with Him. They didn't simply choose to eat a cookie before dinner. They understood that eating the fruit would make them like God knowing good and evil. In spite of having that relationship with their creator they made a choice to align themselves with evil. Eve was deceived, Adam went willingly.

That is humanity at our BEST, before the fall. Everything that we have in the bible after that shows man's depravity.

Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?"

Gen 6:5 "Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. "

​

David, a great man of God, confesses:

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

​

Paul tells us:

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

​

We are not spiritually sick, we are dead. The scripture makes it clear that if we are not saved we are SLAVES to sin. We serve our master the devil. Apart from God there is NOTHING good about us.

From a philosophical perspective your assertion creates a problem. If we are totally depraved we will all sin and only God can help us. This is the world that we actually see. If we are not totally depraved and there is some goodness in us why is it that we all choose to do the wrong things in our lives? If we are capable of "being good" aside from God what need do we have of Jesus?

 

[BBAS 64]

Ok - who is this 'you' he's talking about? Who is he addressing?

Good Day, Godzchild

How is that germaine??

He will cause them to walk in his statues... You see God can do anything chooses to do.

God the same yesterday today and forever.


Were does the Scripture say he is not cause salvation? When we have seen he has caused men to eat flesh, stop men from sinning.

Gen 20:6 Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her.

Turned the heart of a King:

Ezr 6:22 And they kept the Feast of Unleavened Bread seven days with joy, for the LORD had made them joyful and had turned the heart of the king of Assyria to them, so that he aided them in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel.



Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Godzchild]

I will get back to the other. This is by far the most important point in my opinion.

Where do you have scriptural support for the idea that man isn't totally depraved?

The bit where it says that the old man is crucified with Christ

Think about Adam and Eve in the garden before the fall. They had a relationship with God and He walked with them. The earth and the universe were good and we know this because God said it was.

yes that's correct

Adam and Eve had a choice to obey God or attempt to be equal with Him. They didn't simply choose to eat a cookie before dinner. They understood that eating the fruit would make them like God knowing good and evil. In spite of having that relationship with their creator they made a choice to align themselves with evil. Eve was deceived, Adam went willingly.

There are a lot of assumptions here. First of al you say that they understood - we don't really know that. They were deceived very easily! Why would that have been you think?

That is humanity at our BEST, before the fall. Everything that we have in the bible after that shows man's depravity.

Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?"


Gen 6:5 "Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. "


​

David, a great man of God, confesses:

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.



​

Paul tells us:

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,



​

We are not spiritually sick, we are dead. The scripture makes it clear that if we are not saved we are SLAVES to sin. We serve our master the devil. Apart from God there is NOTHING good about us.

Yes we are as good as dead but we were not dead - for if we were then we wouldn't have been able to be crucified with Christ

From a philosophical perspective your assertion creates a problem. If we are totally depraved we will all sin and only God can help us. This is the world that we actually see. If we are not totally depraved and there is some goodness in us why is it that we all choose to do the wrong things in our lives? If we are capable of "being good" aside from God what need do we have of Jesus?

No - we are not totally depraved, meaning that we do have the knowledge of good and evil and can recognise good and evil when we see it. The law was sent to convict men of sin. Man is able to be able to discern good from evil - this makes them not TOTALLY depraved.

Now can I ask you - how can a 'dead man' be crucified with Christ if he's already dead?

 

[Godzchild]

Good Day, Godzchild

How is that germaine??

He will cause them to walk in his statues... You see God can do anything chooses to do.

God the same yesterday today and forever.


Were does the Scripture say he is not cause salvation? When we have seen he has caused men to eat flesh, stop men from sinning.

Gen 20:6 Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her.

Turned the heart of a King:

Ezr 6:22 And they kept the Feast of Unleavened Bread seven days with joy, for the LORD had made them joyful and had turned the heart of the king of Assyria to them, so that he aided them in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel.



Peace to u,

Bill

Yes but to say that these scriptures can be associated with out salvation is merely assumption. What I want to see is scripture specifically saying that God makes us choose Christ! We are talking NT times now - not OT. I want to see where the HOly Spirit literally makes one choose Christ. Can you show me that?

 

[tigersnare]

Yes but to say that these scriptures can be associated with out salvation is merely assumption. What I want to see is scripture specifically saying that God makes us choose Christ! We are talking NT times now - not OT. I want to see where the HOly Spirit literally makes one choose Christ. Can you show me that?

Can you show me how God's somehow changed his character between the Old Testament and New Testament?

Deut 30 6"And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live."

Answer this..who is doing what here?

 

[tigersnare]

he never said that he was in the business of making anybody do anything..

Let me ask you...Did Moses want to lead the people out of Egypt? Na, did God make him? Yep

Did Johah want to go to Ninevi? Na, did God make him? Yep

Did Paul want to be the apostle to the gentiles of the Church he was destorying? Na, did God make him? Yep

Let's be careful attributing things to God which he has not....

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Seems that Godzchild is having a hard time catching the spiritual implications of "being dead".

That's what happens when one uses a wooden literal hermeneutic, the figures of speech that denote a greater spiritual reality are missed.

 

[Unreformedbythetruth]

I'm so glad Jesus gives a hope for all men, by condemning this sinful nature in the flesh. So that He can reach the inner most being that still has a choice to believe and be saved or not to believe and be condemned.

He gave us this power and Spirit through His word that is Spirit and life, to make a choice and made the elect the messengers of this hope to the world.

Believing is not easy salvation. To trust what someone else did for your salvation and realizing it isn't anything we can do to save us, it is very hard.

After we know that Jesus suffered because of our sin, how can we go back to the person we once was.

The wages of our sin is death, so we cannot save our selves.

The only hope we have is Jesus

 

[Rolf Ernst]

They hear in a superficial sense. That is, they do hear; they don't not hear. The command to repent is made to them, they understand it, and therefore God has administered to them a commandment that involves demanding something they cannot do; that is, God is, through a calling only superficially heard, nevertheless heard, demanding that men repent, demanding that they do something only He can do, in allowing men to have faith sufficient unto repentance.

?

Your post says to me that you do not believe that men can be held accountable for the inability which came upon them as a consequence of Adam's sin. Well, as a consequence of Adam's sin, the natural mind is enmity against God. It is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be (see Rom. 8). So you are telling me then that God cannot judge men by His law according to their deeds because they cannot "dance." Your position is that God has no right to judge unless men have in themselves the power to please God. Doesn't that excuse all shortcoming? Since the unregenerate are taken captive by satan at his will, I suppose all they do under his sway is not blameworthy according to you?

 

[Received]

Rolf,

All I'm saying is that it is contradictory to demand men to repent when they cannot do this. Yes, this means it is contradictory to demand men to be held accountable. How can God, who holds faith and is responsible for granting men faith sufficient unto repentance, demand a man to repent when He is the one holding the power? Again, the man who commands the cripple to dance -- insofar as there is the command to dance/repent, this command is nonsensical.

 

[akolouthein]

Rolf,

All I'm saying is that it is contradictory to demand men to repent when they cannot do this. Yes, this means it is contradictory to demand men to be held accountable. How can God, who holds faith and is responsible for granting men faith sufficient unto repentance, demand a man to repent when He is the one holding the power? Again, the man who commands the cripple to dance -- insofar as there is the command to dance/repent, this command is nonsensical.

Romans 9:19-24

19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Bottom line is alot of people that have problems with total depravity or any of the points of Calvinism have a real problem placing God's sovereignty above all. God tells us that we are His creation, He does with us what He wills. Hard to accept? The truth hurts. I don't think anyone should look at any scripture without saying to themselves "I am placing God's sovereignty and will first when examining this passage?"

 

[Godzchild]

Can you show me how God's somehow changed his character between the Old Testament and New Testament?

Deut 30 6"And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live."

Answer this..who is doing what here?

The way he interacts with us has changed from the OT - for sure!

But that scripture still does not tell me that he makes man choose. In fact if you keep reading in Deut you'll find the part where he tells them to choose "Choose life so ye might live" (something like that anyway).

 

[Godzchild]

Let me ask you...Did Moses want to lead the people out of Egypt? Na, did God make him? Yep

Did Johah want to go to Ninevi? Na, did God make him? Yep

Did Paul want to be the apostle to the gentiles of the Church he was destorying? Na, did God make him? Yep

Let's be careful attributing things to God which he has not....

Yes but these people had already chosen to follow God though. I'm not arguing that after one becomes a Christian - God having a way of making us do stuff...that's not in question. What I'm arguing is that he makes us choose Christ.

 

[Godzchild]

Seems that Godzchild is having a hard time catching the spiritual implications of "being dead".

That's what happens when one uses a wooden literal hermeneutic, the figures of speech that denote a greater spiritual reality are missed.

*cough* Again, I ask you...during the baptism into Christ...how is a dead man crucified with Christ? It's a simple question. If you can't answer it then just say so.

 

[Received]

Wait a minute! That can't possibly account for the answer -- because non-Calvinists have their own little coroporate election answer that makes equal sense as does the Calvinist conception.

The truth hurts. That is why I question it as truth, to see if it is not rather an untruth; everywhere in this life injustice dictates unpleastant feelings regarding life. I rebel against the notion that God is guilty of this offense as well. I mean, wasn't it David in the Psalms who openly reproached God and demanded accountability before Him -- and...well...still lived a healthy, blessed life? I think God is for our questioning His motives. But, to get back to the short answer, the non-Calvinist would understand Romans 9 entirely different than the Calvinist would.

 

[Received]

I will tell you a secret: why Calvinists and non-Calvinists will ultimately never convince each other by appealing to scriptural interpretation -- because the non-Calvinist places what he perceives to be the lovingkindness of God above his certainty in interpretation (man is but a little, fragile, finite thing after all), and the Calvinist does the opposite -- he appeals to his intellect, though he often can be guilty of begging the question by simply interpreting and running off quickly and saying "but this is biblical truth!" But not all of them.

 

[Godzchild]

Bottom line is alot of people that have problems with total depravity or any of the points of Calvinism. People have a real problem placing God's sovereignty above all. God tells us that we are His creation, He does with us what He wills. Hard to accept? The truth is hurts. I don't think anyone should look at any scripture without saying to themselves "I am placing God's sovereignty and will first when examining this passage?"

Now wait a minute!!! What I believe does not in anyway threaten God's sovereignty. The problem I'm having is understanding how the calvinist God can be just. When because of Adam ALL MEN were put under sin, but, according to Calvin's interpretation...ONLY THE ELECT are under Christ. That...to me...makes the Calvin God to be someone who's not true to his Word - and I'm afraid that's not my Father!

 

[akolouthein]

Wait a minute! That can't possibly account for the answer -- because non-Calvinists have their own little coroporate election answer that makes equal sense as does the Calvinist conception.

The truth hurts. That is why I question it as truth, to see if it is not rather an untruth; everywhere in this life injustice dictates unpleastant feelings regarding life. I rebel against the notion that God is guilty of this offense as well. I mean, wasn't it David in the Psalms who openly reproached God and demanded accountability before Him -- and...well...still lived a healthy, blessed life? I think God is for our questioning His motives. But, to get back to the short answer, the non-Calvinist would understand Romans 9 entirely different than the Calvinist would.

Living a healthy life and being held accountable before God for questioning his sovereignty are two totally different things. Do you have biblical truths that state God is for our questioning His motives? Try to understand Romans 9 how you want but I realized what it said before I even started beliving Calvinistic doctrines.