Which "Christians" will not be saved?

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 - I do not think I have a theological grid. I am not even sure what that is.

It means a basic theological orientation. There are Calvinists, Arminians, FreeGrace, and other minor views.

Having exchanged a number of posts with you, it is abundantly clear to me that you know the Bible very well.

Thank you. It didn't come easy or quick. I read through the NT monthly and have done so for way over a decade.

I am reasonably certain that you are a person of goodwill and that you fully believe what you post.

I would hope every poster would fit that description.

At the present time, I can best sum up my personal understanding of these often debated issues by saying I can see both sides of the debate. I think verses can be found to support both positions, and that men of goodwill can believe either side of the argument.

I have a real difficult time understanding why anyone would think this. I've been debating both Calvinists and Arminians since the early 2000's and have NEVER seen any verse that states in plain words that salvation can be lost. Not ever.

I do not see "both sides" in Scripture. That would mean that Scripture is contradicted internally. An idea I strongly reject.

I do not believe that salvation depends on a perfect understanding of theology.

I agree. But it surely depends on a clear understanding of who Jesus is, what He did for everyone, and why we need to trust Him for salvation. This is called "saving faith".

I would like to come to Jesus like a little child and be accepted by Him as an innocent. Sadly for me, I have a very active and curious mind.

The reason I became involved in forums way back was for the same reason. I wanted to know WHY people believed what they do. And that doesn't make me sad.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 - thank you for clearly stating your belief that the ex-Christian musical celebrities are still bound for heaven.

My goal is to be as clear as possible.

If those who deny Jesus before men are still going to heaven, then there is not much more to be said in terms of an argument. If your understanding is correct, Heaven will be very full, and for that, I will be grateful, for I will be in that Holy place.

I disagree. Much of so-called evangelicalism believes that works are involved in getting into heaven. That isn't "saving faith" in any way. And Matt 7 tells us that only a few go the "narrow way", but broad is way to destruction. So I think the lake of fire will be way more populated than the new earth (Rev 21).

But Jesus said "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." Matthew 7:13-14.

Amen.

So I have serious doubts that your understanding of scripture on this particular issue is correct.

All you need to convince me of being incorrect is to share the single best verse that teaches in very clear words that salvation can be lost. That's all it takes to convince me.

It will be of interest to me to learn of your understanding on a few additional verses. I will post that separately.

I'm always happy to explain verses that I understand. If I don't understand any, I'll admit it.

I would suggest that you don't provide a long list in 1 post. Give just several at a time.

Thanks.

 

[timothyu]

and have NEVER seen any verse that states in plain words that salvation can be lost. Not ever.

Consider that many who believe they were saved, never were in the first place but had fallen victim to the blind who were/are leading the blind for over 1700 years, keeping them of the world rather than allowing them to live in the ways of the Kingdom..

 

[timothyu]

That isn't "saving faith" in any way

Faith is not in Jesus but in the ways of the Kingdom being the way as compared to the ways of man. This is what He taught.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"According to Jesus, all to whom He gives eternal life"

There is the catch. All who the Father 'gives eternal life'. Not all are up for consideration, especially those who do not wish to do the will of the Father.

I think you have totally misunderstood my post. The phrase "all to whom..." refers ONLY to those who have believed in Christ for salvation. iow, believers only. I never meant or suggested "all" as in the entire human race.

What purpose would they even serve under His Kingdom? Theirs is not of the Kingdom but continue in the worldly ways of man.

Just because you cannot fathom the purpose of the Father in bringing all of His children into the kingdom doesn't mean that He won't do it.

Let's not be guilty of challenging God's purposes. We have but such a small window to peer through.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thank you timothyu and BCsenior. I know that my understanding is imperfect. Only if God permits me to enter into Heaven will all things be made clear to me. It is therefore of great value to me to learn what has been made clear to others that I may still be unclear about.

Perhaps I am deceiving myself, but I feel very certain, very clearly that one who denies Christ to the world without any duress, can have no hope of heaven unless and until they ask God for forgiveness. There is no shadow of doubt in my soul on this issue. I have faith in the Holy Spirit, and I believe the Spirit would not let me feel so certain about this matter if I was wrong.

Instead of having faith in your strong and certain views, I suggest you pray for clarity in every verse you encounter and wisdom and discernment when reading His Word.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How did He take away sin? By bringing us and doing what was required of Him to bring about the Kingdom.

No, by dying for the sins of mankind. Plain and simple. That's how He took away sin.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"and have NEVER seen any verse that states in plain words that salvation can be lost. Not ever."

Consider that many who believe they were saved, never were in the first place but had fallen victim to the blind who were/are leading the blind for over 1700 years, keeping them of the world rather than allowing them to live in the ways of the Kingdom..

I absolutely do believe this! The issue isn't about believing you are saved. It's about believing what the Word of God SAYS about how to be saved. That's the only issue involving salvation. What does the Bible say.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"That isn't "saving faith" in any way"

Faith is not in Jesus but in the ways of the Kingdom being the way as compared to the ways of man. This is what He taught.

Your post isn't saving faith.

But I'd love to see any verses you think supports your views.

 

[timothyu]

I think you have totally misunderstood my post. The phrase "all to whom..." refers ONLY to those who have believed in Christ for salvation. iow, believers only. I never meant or suggested "all" as in the entire human race.

Likewise. Believing in the Christ for salvation depends on belief and practice of His Gospel of the Kingdom. Those who do not have remained rooted in the same world that Adam and Eve gave us. That is their only reward.

 

[timothyu]

No, by dying for the sins of mankind. Plain and simple. That's how He took away sin.

He took away sin by giving an option.

 

[timothyu]

It's about believing what the Word of God SAYS about how to be saved. That's the only issue involving salvation. What does the Bible say.

Follow the Gospel of the Kingdom, not the gospels of man.

 

[timothyu]

But I'd love to see any verses you think supports your views.

Read the first four books all pertaining to Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom and how since the garden God has taught the difference between His ways and man's yet they still refuse to listen. Christianity has too long overlooked His Gospel for another. Even the Adversary recognizes Jesus and the Father but in no way recognizes their ways as being over/better than those of him/man. Belief in the Messenger is not enough. Messengers bring messages.

I fully appreciate that so many pack their bags in anticipation of visiting God at the end of their journey, but sadly most go to the big Christian station and board a train to nowhere while missing the little train to the Kingdom parked at a siding far from the hubbub of man. They take the Christian train that goes in endless circles because it does not separate from the world of man so that God may enter us, While those of the little train to the Kingdom find their way easily as they have abandoned the world of man and God has been thus allowed to reside within them.

Christianity (the church of man) lays the groundwork but we must find the path (the church of God) for ourselves. Religion vs scripture. Doctrines vs the words of Jesus.

 

[Anthony2019]

Just then a lawyer stood up to test Jesus.
“Teacher,” he said, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
He said to him, “What is written in the law? What do you read there?”
He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbour as yourself.”
And he said to him, “You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.”
(Luke 10:25-28 NRSV)

 

[BCsenior]

Believing in the Christ for salvation depends on belief and practice
of His Gospel of the Kingdom. Those who do not have remained rooted
in the same world that Adam and Eve gave us. That is their only reward.

Yes, salvation is having belief-faith-trust that
Jesus will get you through ... IF you do your part.

IOW, true believers co-operate with the precious Holy Spirit.
They understand that they have responsibility and accountability.
They have free will to do their part in their salvation, or not to do such!
They are NOT robots.

 

[BCsenior]

“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart,
and with all your soul, and with all your strength,
and with all your mind; and your neighbour as yourself.”

Do you know what the lifestyle is of the BACs who truly believe this verse?

 

[timothyu]

They are NOT robots.

Agree. Jesus said the HS would be sent to guide (not command) those already on the path of the Kingdom, to help keep them from falling to the wayside as in the parable of the sower.

 

[Anthony2019]

Do you know what the lifestyle is of the BACs who truly believe this verse?

I think Galatians 5:22-25 sums it up perfectly. If we have the Holy Spirit living in us, the fruits of the Spirit should be growing in us. Love, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

 

[timothyu]

Love, peace, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

Adam and Eve had that but took it upon themselves to self determine the definition of each to suit their own purposes. Likewise does man. The key is towards others only with nothing in it for self. I have a pious friend who is extremely virtuous, as long as there is something in it for himself... thus defeating the entire purpose.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Believing in the Christ for salvation depends on belief and practice of His Gospel of the Kingdom.

[
"practice" amounts to effort, or works. Works and grace do NOT go together in God's plan for salvation. We are saved by grace, through faith. Eph 2:8.

The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. Titus 2:11