Which "Christians" will not be saved?

FreeGrace2

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Your attempts to “redefine” the words of Jesus Christ are well noted on this Forum, as well as others from which you have been banned.
Ha. You've still failed to show any evidence that I've attempted to redefine anything.

But what you've repeatedly attempted to do is reject the clear promise of Jesus regarding recipients of eternal life. They shall never perish. Case closed.

Jesus admonished His people to remain “in Him”.
And since John 10:28 and 29 clearly state that believers are in His hand, believers cannot get out of His hand. And you know perfectly well that there are no verses that teach that believers have the power to remove themselves from God's hand.

So deal with it. That's reality.

Those who don’t remain “in Christ” are cast into the fire and burned burned.
Well, now you're conflating 2 different concepts. To be "in Christ" is to be "in union" with Him, per Eph 1:13,14. It the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit. Are you or any believer more powerful than the Holy Spirit and can break His sealing? Of course not.

Where is the verse that teaches that behavior will result in being removed from God's hand? It doesn't exist. And your theory is just that. Unproven.

Your error is equating being "in Christ" with "abiding in Christ".

I've explained it often enough and clear enough so that there is no excuse for not understanding them.

But everyone is free to accept or reject the truth.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

It’s crystal clear.
Not to everyone. And esp not to Arminians.

In Christ = Eternal Life
Right.

Separated from Christ = Eternal Death.
What you repeatedly miss is that once sealed, NO ONE can be unsealed. You've never provided ANY verses that teach this, yet you continue to believe what you cannot support.

otoh, I've provided plenty of evidence for the opposite; that the sealing is PERMANENT.

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession
—to the praise of his glory.

The red words REFUTE your unbiblical theories.

But that's not all.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

You have been very clear about your opinions; that lifestyle or behavior has an eternal effect; that a believer whose lifestyle or behavior is sinful or unChristian will not go to heaven.

Yet, Paul couldn't have been more clear regarding the sealing ministry of the Spirit.

EVEN those believers who GRIEVE the Spirit are STILL sealed for the day of redemption.

And if that's not enough evidence:

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

We KNOW what "is to come", the redemption of God's sealed possession (every believer), from Eph 1:14 and 4:30.

But one is free to reject whatever they don't like. But to their own peril (God's discipline).

Here is how the scriptures instruct us to remain “in Christ”.
Actually, not. Scriture commands us to abide in Christ.

The believer cannot not "remain in Christ". As I've just once again proven from Scripture.

But you have shown a complete disregard for the powerful sealing ministry of the Spirit.

You are, in essence, teaching that the sealing ministry of the Spirit is easily broken, and God's PROMISE and GUARANTEE of an inheritance on the day of redemption isn't really a promise or guarantee at all.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24
This is so clearly a verse on HOW to be in fellowship with the Lord. By obedience, of course.

Can you explain what motivates you to teach God’s people that they do not need to remain “in Christ”, or keep His commandments?
JLB
Why in the world would anyone make such a wild and erroneous conclusion about anything I've posted?

I have repeatedly shown FROM SCRIPTURE that once sealed, the believer is SECURE in Christ. It's you who have repeatedly rejected that biblical teaching by your denial of that truth.

And I have been very clear that believers MUST be in fellowship in order to bear fruit (John 15:1-6) and to be blessed and eternally rewarded.

It's you who have rejected this teaching and lead believers astray by thinking that God's promises aren't real. That recipients of eternal life can end up perishing.

That is directly AGAINST what the Lord Jesus SAID in John 10:28.

Your views are deceiving. Such teachers will face God's judgment.

James 3:1 - Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Until you admit that God's sealing ministry is PERMANENT, you are teaching against God's very word.
 
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JLB777

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Ha. You've still failed to show any evidence that I've attempted to redefine anything.

But what you've repeatedly attempted to do is reject the clear promise of Jesus regarding recipients of eternal life. They shall never perish. Case closed.


And since John 10:28 and 29 clearly state that believers are in His hand, believers cannot get out of His hand. And you know perfectly well that there are no verses that teach that believers have the power to remove themselves from God's hand.

So deal with it. That's reality.


Well, now you're conflating 2 different concepts. To be "in Christ" is to be "in union" with Him, per Eph 1:13,14. It the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit. Are you or any believer more powerful than the Holy Spirit and can break His sealing? Of course not.

Where is the verse that teaches that behavior will result in being removed from God's hand? It doesn't exist. And your theory is just that. Unproven.

Your error is equating being "in Christ" with "abiding in Christ".

I've explained it often enough and clear enough so that there is no excuse for not understanding them.

But everyone is free to accept or reject the truth.


Not to everyone. And esp not to Arminians.


Right.


What you repeatedly miss is that once sealed, NO ONE can be unsealed. You've never provided ANY verses that teach this, yet you continue to believe what you cannot support.

otoh, I've provided plenty of evidence for the opposite; that the sealing is PERMANENT.

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession
—to the praise of his glory.

The red words REFUTE your unbiblical theories.

But that's not all.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

You have been very clear about your opinions; that lifestyle or behavior has an eternal effect; that a believer whose lifestyle or behavior is sinful or unChristian will not go to heaven.

Yet, Paul couldn't have been more clear regarding the sealing ministry of the Spirit.

EVEN those believers who GRIEVE the Spirit are STILL sealed for the day of redemption.

And if that's not enough evidence:

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

We KNOW what "is to come", the redemption of God's sealed possession (every believer), from Eph 1:14 and 4:30.

But one is free to reject whatever they don't like. But to their own peril (God's discipline).


Actually, not. Scriture commands us to abide in Christ.

The believer cannot not "remain in Christ". As I've just once again proven from Scripture.

But you have shown a complete disregard for the powerful sealing ministry of the Spirit.

You are, in essence, teaching that the sealing ministry of the Spirit is easily broken, and God's PROMISE and GUARANTEE of an inheritance on the day of redemption isn't really a promise or guarantee at all.


This is so clearly a verse on HOW to be in fellowship with the Lord. By obedience, of course.


Why in the world would anyone make such a wild and erroneous conclusion about anything I've posted?

I have repeatedly shown FROM SCRIPTURE that once sealed, the believer is SECURE in Christ. It's you who have repeatedly rejected that biblical teaching by your denial of that truth.

And I have been very clear that believers MUST be in fellowship in order to bear fruit (John 15:1-6) and to be blessed and eternally rewarded.

It's you who have rejected this teaching and lead believers astray by thinking that God's promises aren't real. That recipients of eternal life can end up perishing.

That is directly AGAINST what the Lord Jesus SAID in John 10:28.

Your views are deceiving. Such teachers will face God's judgment.

James 3:1 - Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Until you admit that God's sealing ministry is PERMANENT, you are teaching against God's very word.



It’s clear you don’t understand the subject, and your tired old attempts to pit scripture against scripture, shows your lack of integrity in doctrine.


Plainly those who are in Christ have eternal life, while those who are removed from Christ do not.

If you have a scripture that says people who are not in Christ haVe eternal life then post it.



Jesus admonished His people to remain “in Him”.

Those who don’t remain “in Christ” are cast into the fire and burned burned.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


It’s crystal clear.


In Christ = Eternal Life

Separated from Christ = Eternal Death.



Here is how the scriptures instruct us to remain “in Christ”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Can you explain what motivates you to teach God’s people that they do not need to remain “in Christ”, or keep His commandments?




JLB
 
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FreeGrace2

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It’s clear you don’t understand the subject, and your tired old attempts to pit scripture against scripture, shows your lack of integrity in doctrine.
I heartily invite you to prove your claim here; that I have ever tried to pit Scripture against Scripture.

otoh, I've PROVED many times that you do that all the time.

Example: Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, in John 10:28.

You repeatedly teach that recipients of eternal life can perish.

Plainly those who are in Christ have eternal life, while those who are removed from Christ do not.
You've never shown any verse that says that a believer can be "removed from Christ". In fact, not even close.

If you have a scripture that says people who are not in Christ haVe eternal life then post it.
Of course I don't have such a verse, because NO ONE who has been sealed with the Spirit can be removed from Christ.

And no unbeliever has eternal life.

Jesus admonished His people to remain “in Him”.
For fellowship, of course. But you've rejected that doctrine as well.

Those who don’t remain “in Christ” are cast into the fire and burned burned.
Discarded from service, just as a non fruit bearing branch is by a farmer. But you don't seem to understand metaphors.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

It’s crystal clear.
Metaphors are certainly not clear to you.

In Christ = Eternal Life
Through faith in Christ. And all sealed believers (that's all of them) shall never perish. Jesus said so.

Separated from Christ = Eternal Death.
Every human being is born separated from Christ, and faces eternal death. Of course.

Here is how the scriptures instruct us to remain “in Christ”.
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24[/QUOTE]
Sadly, you misunderstand the difference between being "in Christ" and "abiding in Christ". But it's been explained quite enough. So you don't have any excuse.

Can you explain what motivates you to teach God’s people that they do not need to remain “in Christ”, or keep His commandments?
I've never taught such nonsense. Of course they do if they want to be blessed during their time on earth, and avoid His divine discipline, and be rewarded in eternity.

But your question reveals that either you are unable to comprehend my clear posts, or you deceptively are trying to smear my views and posts.

It's either ignorance or deception. Which is it?
 
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Paul McGraw

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I have always found this issue confusing. And the debate between FreeGrace2 and JLB777 is a perfect example of why it is confusing.

I hope that I will be allowed to enter into Heaven. But I know that the person I am now is a far better person than I was in 1995 when I asked Jesus to be my Lord. Some things changed right away. Other things took time. I could give many examples and will do so if it would help anyone.

Before I gave my heart to Jesus I did not have any desire to come into agreement with God. After I gave myself to Him, I wanted to please God, to be in agreement with Him. Over the years more and more areas of my life have changed. I will always fall short, for no one is without sin, but I hope I am a bit more pleasing to God today than I used to be.

I do not think there is any magic trick or special legal jargon that we can use to compel God to accept us into heaven. Our salvation is not a contract, and God is sovereign. God sees into our hearts and knows all truth. God is our all-powerful and all-knowing judge, and He can do anything He wants to do. My only hope is that God will take mercy on me a sinner and forgive me through unmerited grace.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I have always found this issue confusing. And the debate between FreeGrace2 and JLB777 is a perfect example of why it is confusing.
I would quite happy to clarify anything you have found confusing or conflicted in any of my posts. I believe the debate with JLB to be quite straightforward. He believes that recipients of eternal life CAN perish, whereas I believe what Jesus said in very clear and unambiguous words:

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish." John 10:28 But JLB believes that they CAN perish, in spite of what Jesus said.

I hope that I will be allowed to enter into Heaven.
One of the things the Bible never says is that one should "hope to be allowed to enter Heaven". isn't Jesus' statement in John 10:28 clear enough so that you don't have to hope (wish for)?

Now, if you are using 'hope' in the biblical sense (from the Greek word), then you're not wishing to enter Heaven, but have a confident expectation to enter Heaven.

But I know that the person I am now is a far better person than I was in 1995 when I asked Jesus to be my Lord. Some things changed right away. Other things took time. I could give many examples and will do so if it would help anyone.
Are you suggesting that one's lifestyle and/or behavior is a critical factor in entering Heaven? If so, what verse says so most clearly?

Before I gave my heart to Jesus I did not have any desire to come into agreement with God.
I hope (wish) you know that no one ever got saved by giving their heart to Jesus. And there is no verse that says so. But there are many many verses about believing in Jesus as Savior.

After I gave myself to Him, I wanted to please God, to be in agreement with Him. Over the years more and more areas of my life have changed. I will always fall short, for no one is without sin, but I hope I am a bit more pleasing to God today than I used to be.
This is quite admirable and all believers should have such a mindset. But as you note, believers still sin, and many continue to choose to obey sin rather than righteousness. Romans 6:16

I do not think there is any magic trick or special legal jargon that we can use to compel God to accept us into heaven.
I agree. But the Bible is very clear on how to be saved (accept us into Heaven).

Paul's answer to the jailer:
"believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved". Acts 16:31

Our salvation is not a contract, and God is sovereign.
Actually, it is a one-way contract. On the basis of believing in Jesus Christ for salvation, the believer possesses eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5 -
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

And John 10:28 puts it all into perspective: those Jesus gives eternal life (those who have believed in Him for it) shall never perish. That includes you.

You no longer have to wish for or be 'hopeful' about entering Heaven.

God sees into our hearts and knows all truth. God is our all-powerful and all-knowing judge, and He can do anything He wants to do. My only hope is that God will take mercy on me a sinner and forgive me through unmerited grace.
The good news (gospel) is that God has already made clear how to enter Heaven; receive eternal life on the basis of faith in His Son.

Again, I'd be very happy to clarify anything that has been confusing to you from any of my posts.
 
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Paul McGraw

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FreeGrace2 - Satan fully BELIEVES in Jesus. Satan has no doubts at all. But Satan will not enter into heaven. God cannot be compelled by us. God is sovereign. He can do whatever he wants to do. I do believe that the Bible is given to us by God, and it is always reliable if we have ears to hear. But the Bible is best read in chapters and books. Not one verse at a time.

The Bible does not compel God. He is sovereign. By our fruits we reveal ourselves. But that also can be an act. God knows our hearts. We can chant "I believe in Jesus" all day every day. We can be baptized by emersion and by sprinkling and slain in the spirit, but none of that compels God because only He is sovereign, and He knows what is in our hearts.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 - Satan fully BELIEVES in Jesus. Satan has no doubts at all.
His belief is from experience, not faith. He was created by God and lived in the presence of the Trinity for who knows how long before he rebelled. So his belief has no relationship to humans believing that Jesus is God's Son.

But Satan will not enter into heaven.
This is irrelevant. I've never suggested such. It appears you are comparing apples to oranges.

God cannot be compelled by us. God is sovereign. He can do whatever he wants to do.
What it seems you don't understand is that the Bible has already told us what God's plan is. And since God cannot lie (Titus 1:2, Heb 6:18, Psa 89:35), whatever He has already promised will surely come to pass. Including His gospel message.

I do believe that the Bible is given to us by God, and it is always reliable if we have ears to hear. But the Bible is best read in chapters and books. Not one verse at a time.
If you can find anything in the entire gospel of John that you think somehow changes what Jesus said in 10:28 about recipients of eternal life never perishing, please share.

The Bible does not compel God.
Excuse me, but the Bible is God's Word. Are you actually suggesting that God can go back on His word?

He is sovereign. By our fruits we reveal ourselves. But that also can be an act. God knows our hearts. We can chant "I believe in Jesus" all day every day. We can be baptized by emersion and by sprinkling and slain in the spirit, but none of that compels God because only He is sovereign, and He knows what is in our hearts.
He is also TRUE to His Word. His Word is GOLD.

God cannot lie. So what He has said will come to pass. Count on it.

However, you have already made the charge that the debate between me and JLB is confusing.

So I asked you for clarification of anything that I've posted that is confusing to you.

This post of yours didn't do that.

So, I take it that there was nothing in my posts that was confusing. So all the confusion comes from JLB.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I have always found this issue confusing. And the debate between FreeGrace2 and JLB777 is a perfect example of why it is confusing.
I responded with this:

"I would quite happy to clarify anything you have found confusing or conflicted in any of my posts. I believe the debate with JLB to be quite straightforward. He believes that recipients of eternal life CAN perish, whereas I believe what Jesus said in very clear and unambiguous words:

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish." John 10:28 But JLB believes that they CAN perish, in spite of what Jesus said."

What's confusing between our debate? JLB believes that recipients of eternal life CAN perish, and I believe what Jesus said; that they shall never perish.
 
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Paul McGraw

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FreeGrace2 - your argument is not confusing, nor is the argument of JLB. It is the very situation which is confusing. Your argument is very simplistic, you see God as a giant vending machine. Put in some belief and out will pop salvation. I hope you are correct. I hope Heaven will have a far greater population than I expect and that I will be one of the beneficiaries to see it. But that is just me. God is under no obligation to do anything to please me. It is my obligation to try and please God.

Recently there have been a couple of famous Christian pop singers who have renounced their faith. I expect you have seen the news stories. So if they die today will they enter heaven? What if they had died a week BEFORE they publicly renounced their faith. Would they have entered heaven at that point? They said they believed. They wrote and sang songs about their belief.

I wish there was one simple formula that will tell us exactly how to be saved. But I find that in reading the scriptures and not just a few verses, that belief is only one of God's expectations of us.

John 15:14 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” (Jesus’ speaking)

Galatians 5:13-14 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning so that you should walk in it.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 - your argument is not confusing, nor is the argument of JLB. It is the very situation which is confusing. Your argument is very simplistic, you see God as a giant vending machine. Put in some belief and out will pop salvation.
Apparently you are not very familiar with Scripture.

Have you ever read Paul's answer to the jailer?

jailer: "sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

Paul: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL BE saved"

How is that a vending machine?

I hope you are correct. I hope Heaven will have a far greater population than I expect and that I will be one of the beneficiaries to see it.
Why bother wishing for something? The Bible tells us specifically and clearly how to be saved and go to heaven. Just read Paul's answer to the jailer's question.

But that is just me. God is under no obligation to do anything to please me. It is my obligation to try and please God.
God's only obligation is to Himself. He is always true to Himself. And what He promises, He delivers. Every time.

Recently there have been a couple of famous Christian pop singers who have renounced their faith.
Yeah, I'm aware of those idiots. And Paul prophesied about these idiots in 1 Tim 4:1.

I expect you have seen the news stories. So if they die today will they enter heaven?
I believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life. They shall never perish. John 10:28. Do you believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life?

What if they had died a week BEFORE they publicly renounced their faith.
No different.

Would they have entered heaven at that point? They said they believed. They wrote and sang songs about their belief.
This isn't about people SAY. It's about what people believe. iow, one is not saved just because they say they are saved, or that they say they believed. People say a lot of things. So what? I'm not judging these idiots. I assume they did believe in the saving work of Jesus Christ at some point in their life. But they got derailed along the line. Just read their stupid stories. Something rubbed them the wrong way and they fell off the tracks. Weak minds, and a weaker faith.

And the Bible already told us that some will "wander from the faith". So it should be expected.

I wish there was one simple formula that will tell us exactly how to be saved.
Seems you like to wish a lot for things.

Well, Acts 16:31 fulfills your wish.

But I find that in reading the scriptures and not just a few verses, that belief is only one of God's expectations of us.
OK, provide your single BEST verse that clearly states what else is required for salvation.

I'll be waiting eagerly.

John 15:14 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” (Jesus’ speaking)

Galatians 5:13-14 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning so that you should walk in it.
So far, none of these meets the "clear requirements for salvation" test.

They are commands for every believer to follow. But where do any of these verses even mention salvation as the goal of being obedient to these commands? They aren't there.
 
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Paul McGraw

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It is important for both of us to remember that members of the body of Christ, His followers, are commanded to love one another. We should not use the scriptures as a weapon to try to “beat” an opponent. Hopefully, we can discuss issues of theology in love and tolerance, and not in a sense of hate and combat.

Jesus said, “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.” John 13:34

So I offer you a few of my thoughts in a spirit of brotherly love and in the hope (or wish) that our discussion might illuminate His holy truth for me, and possibly for you as well.

I do wish for many things, and I pray for many things. It is not a weakness or something to be ashamed about. My greatest desire is to grow closer to God. I acknowledge that only if I enter into Heaven will I then have a perfect understanding. Until that glorious day, my understanding is flawed. I accept my limitations.

Perhaps you are not aware of this, but the very topic we are discussing has been debated by Christians for at least 500 years. Many teachers and Bible experts far more learned and wise than I have debated this so much that there can hardly be anything new that I can add. That is why I wish or pray, that God would provide greater clarity on this issue which has caused so many of God's children to become angry with one another and created divisions.

I will continue in my next post.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 - I am very distressed by your statement that God's Holy Word must pass some test you have devised in order to be believed.
Huh??!! Where did I say anything about passing some test?

I shared what Jesus said. One either believes what He said or one doesn't. It is that simple.

Only God is sovereign. He will judge us. We do not judge God.
Of course we don't judge God. (although how many believers have asked, "Why did you let this happen, God?")

Back to the point. I gave you straightforward Scripture. The only test, if you want to call it that, is whether you believe the words or not. And John 10:28 isn't some difficult to decipher verse, either. It's as clear as can be.

Those who have been given eternal life, which is the moment they believe in Jesus Christ, they shall never perish.

It is that clear and simple.

Well, do you pass the test?
 
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Paul McGraw

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I think we can agree that Jesus is our sole hope of salvation. Jesus said to him,I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6

We can agree that belief in the Lordship of Jesus is absolutely required. Some express their belief in different words, such as placing their trust in Him, or “resting” in Him, but these different ways of saying it all mean to believe in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, the Son of God, the Great I AM, as full and complete payment for our sins. But not everyone will be saved. Many verses make this completely clear. The majority will perish. I think we can agree on that point.

And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.” Luke 9:23

If we wish to follow Jesus into heaven, we must believe but that is not all. We must take up our cross. And it is NOT enough to take up our cross once, but we must do so daily.

(Jesus speaking) So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.” Matthew 10:32-33

Therefor we must acknowledge Jesus as our Lord in public in order to be saved. We may believe, but if we deny Him, He will deny us, and since we agree that Jesus is our only way to salvation, we are thus condemned.

(Jesus speaking) “No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” Luke 13:3-5

Jesus often spoke of repentance. Here He tells us very plainly that we must repent or perish. We can believe, but belief without repentance is useless.

(Jesus speaking) “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven”. Mathew 7:21

So if we do not do the will of the Father in Heaven, we will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Does He mean just the one time? Do the will of the father just once and enter into heaven? Perhpas, but a more reasonable reading is that our commitment to do the will of the Father must be ongoing.

(Jesus speaking)And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell” Mark 9:43

This is a very hard teaching, and one that makes me cringe whenever I read it. I am not worthy Lord, please have mercy on me, a sinner.
 
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FreeGrace2

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It is important for both of us to remember that members of the body of Christ, His followers, are commanded to love one another. We should not use the scriptures as a weapon to try to “beat” an opponent.
Do you feel as though I'm beating you with John 10:28?

Hopefully, we can discuss issues of theology in love and tolerance, and not in a sense of hate and combat.
If you feel I've been hateful or combative, please cite the post # and actual words. Thank you.

Jesus said, “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.” John 13:34
OK. Obviously you believe these words from Jesus. What about John 10:28?

So I offer you a few of my thoughts in a spirit of brotherly love and in the hope (or wish) that our discussion might illuminate His holy truth for me, and possibly for you as well.
That's always my goal when posting to others.

I do wish for many things, and I pray for many things. It is not a weakness or something to be ashamed about. My greatest desire is to grow closer to God. I acknowledge that only if I enter into Heaven will I then have a perfect understanding. Until that glorious day, my understanding is flawed. I accept my limitations.
My view is that the reason our understanding is limited, etc, is that God hasn't given us everything. That will happen only in heaven.

But, He HAS given us His Word. That can be understood. Or did God give us His Word written in a way that 2 diametrically opposed ideas can both be argued?? How would that make sense?

Perhaps you are not aware of this, but the very topic we are discussing has been debated by Christians for at least 500 years.
Do you really think I'm that naive? I've been posting on these forums since the early 2000's. Of course it's a hot topic.

Many teachers and Bible experts far more learned and wise than I have debated this so much that there can hardly be anything new that I can add. That is why I wish or pray, that God would provide greater clarity on this issue which has caused so many of God's children to become angry with one another and created divisions.
As for clarity, how much more clear does one need than John 10:28?

How about 2 more verses?

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

These 2 verses teach that condemnation is for "all who have not believed". What it doesn't say is that condemnation is for those who used to believe.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I think we can agree that Jesus is our sole hope of salvation. Jesus said to him,I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6
Are you using the word 'hope' in the modern usage or how the Koine Greek meant it?

We can agree that belief in the Lordship of Jesus is absolutely required. Some express their belief in different words, such as placing their trust in Him, or “resting” in Him, but these different ways of saying it all mean to believe in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, the Son of God, the Great I AM, as full and complete payment for our sins. But not everyone will be saved. Many verses make this completely clear. The majority will perish. I think we can agree on that point.
So far, so good. Those who have believed will be saved, or not condemned. John 3:18, 2 Thess 2:12 Those who have received eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.” Luke 9:23
Are you quoting this verse as another requirement for salvation? If so, please include the verse in this very context that makes this clear. Thanks.

If we wish to follow Jesus into heaven, we must believe but that is not all. We must take up our cross. And it is NOT enough to take up our cross once, but we must do so daily.
OK, I see. You're embellishing the verse to fit your ideas. Jesus did NOT say anything about "follow Me into heaven". That's your addition to Scripture. You shouldn't do that.

When Jesus said to "follow Me", He was talking about living the way He did. And He didn't include any requirement for entering heaven.

(Jesus speaking) So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.” Matthew 10:32-33
Are you aware that these verses are parallel to 2 Tim 2:12? They speak of the same thing; which is reward in heaven for faithfulness.

Therefor we must acknowledge Jesus as our Lord in public in order to be saved.
Congratulations. You just added to Scripture. Works for salvation. So you can throw out all references to God's grace in your Bible, since you don't really believe in grace.

If our behavior determines whether we enter heaven, that means we have earned the right to enter heaven. You can't get any farther away from grace than that.

We may believe, but if we deny Him, He will deny us, and since we agree that Jesus is our only way to salvation, we are thus condemned.
If you believe the Bible really means this, then your Bible is seriously flawed and contradicted, because Jesus said recipients of eternal life (those who have believed) shall never perish - John 10:28. And John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 say that all will be condemned who have not believed.

(Jesus speaking) “No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” Luke 13:3-5
I'm not seeing anything about the possibility of losing salvation here. Help me out, please.

Jesus often spoke of repentance. Here He tells us very plainly that we must repent or perish. We can believe, but belief without repentance is useless.
Please look up the Greek word for "repent". It means to change your mind about something. To believe in Jesus MEANS to change your mind about a number of things.

(Jesus speaking) “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven”. Mathew 7:21

So if we do not do the will of the Father in Heaven, we will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Does He mean just the one time? Do the will of the father just once and enter into heaven? Perhpas, but a more reasonable reading is that our commitment to do the will of the Father must be ongoing.
I love this passage. First, we must ask; just what is the "will of the Father"? Most seem to think it is about lifestyle. No, let's see what Jesus said about the will of the Father:

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

(Jesus speaking)And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell” Mark 9:43
Do you think Jesus was speaking literally here??? He was speaking metaphorically.

This is a very hard teaching, and one that makes me cringe whenever I read it. I am not worthy Lord, please have mercy on me, a sinner.
Have you cut off either hand yet, or poked out either eye?

I hope you don't think self-mutilation is required to enter heaven.
 
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Paul McGraw

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I hate cutting up someone's words and interjecting my comments as if I am passing judgement on their thoughts. So I will just try to respond at the end.

Huh??!! Where did I say anything about passing some test?

I shared what Jesus said. One either believes what He said or one doesn't. It is that simple.

Of course we don't judge God. (although how many believers have asked, "Why did you let this happen, God?")

Back to the point. I gave you straightforward Scripture. The only test, if you want to call it that, is whether you believe the words or not. And John 10:28 isn't some difficult to decipher verse, either. It's as clear as can be.

Those who have been given eternal life, which is the moment they believe in Jesus Christ, they shall never perish.

It is that clear and simple.

Well, do you pass the test?

You stated in reply to two verses of scripture, "So far, none of these meets the "clear requirements for salvation" test." I hope that you misspoke and that you did not intend to imply that God's Holy Word must meet the standards of your "clear requirements for salvation test."

God can speak to us in many ways. In visions, in dreams, and in His Holy Word. All of His Word is important and worth our attention. Even if it may not be clear to us, even if we disagree as to its ultimate meaning. Even if it does not meet a "test" someone may have devised.

I sent another post with some verses that I think touch on this subject. I believe them, even if they do not pass some test. God demands of us that we believe, but I suspect that He demands far more from us as well.

Perhaps you can point out a scripture where Jesus said: "all you have to do is believe, and you are in, no matter what else you do, you are saved." I think I missed that scripture.
 
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Paul McGraw

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FreeGrace2 - Belief in Jesus is absolutely required. But there are many other scriptures that teach us that more than just belief might be required. John 10:28 is a beautiful verse. And because God is the creator of all things, and all-powerful, of course, no one can force Him to give up any soul that He wishes to hold. It is totally and completely in the hands of Jesus. It is His decision. We can not force ourselves into His hands, nor can we force ourselves out of His hands. Only God is sovereign.
 
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You stated in reply to two verses of scripture, "So far, none of these meets the "clear requirements for salvation" test." I hope that you misspoke and that you did not intend to imply that God's Holy Word must meet the standards of your "clear requirements for salvation test."
What I meant by that was that none of the verses you quoted speak of salvation at all.

God can speak to us in many ways. In visions, in dreams, and in His Holy Word.
I am of the opinion that once His Word was completed, dreams and visions are out.

All of His Word is important and worth our attention. Even if it may not be clear to us, even if we disagree as to its ultimate meaning. Even if it does not meet a "test" someone may have devised.
To be clear, I've devised no such test. If a verse speaks of salvation or eternal life (same thing), then we must believe what the verse says about how to get it.

And I've shared a clear one with you.

I sent another post with some verses that I think touch on this subject. I believe them, even if they do not pass some test.
Seems you are insinuating that I don't believe some verses.

God demands of us that we believe, but I suspect that He demands far more from us as well.
Of course He does. The key is the subject of what He demands.

For example, are there any verses that demand things other than belief for salvation/eternal life? I've never seen any.

Are there verses tha demand certain behavior/lifestyle for blessings and eternal rewards. Absolutely.

Perhaps you can point out a scripture where Jesus said: "all you have to do is believe, and you are in, no matter what else you do, you are saved." I think I missed that scripture.
I've given it to you. But just not in the specific words that you are now demanding. ;)

John 10:28 Jesus said He gives eternal life to His sheep. That would refer to those who believe. Then He added, "and they shall never perish."

Did you notice that He didn't include any exceptions? Simply on the basis of being given the free gift of eternal life, the believer shall never perish.

But since you believe that something more than belief is necessary or required to enter heaven, how can you really believe John 10:28? Please explain.
 
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