Which "Christians" will not be saved?

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 - Belief in Jesus is absolutely required. But there are many other scriptures that teach us that more than just belief might be required.

This is THE issue. Where are those verses? I've been at this since the early 2000's, and no one has ever provided any verse that tells us that anything more than belief in Christ is required to enter heaven.

But if you have one, please share.

John 10:28 is a beautiful verse. And because God is the creator of all things, and all-powerful, of course, no one can force Him to give up any soul that He wishes to hold. It is totally and completely in the hands of Jesus. It is His decision. We can not force ourselves into His hands, nor can we force ourselves out of His hands. Only God is sovereign.

The issue isn't about forcing ourselves into His hand, of course. The issue is clear and simple, but you keep coming up with distractions to divert away from the clear message of John 10:28.

In v.28 the "them" refers to His sheep, from v.27. And, "His sheep" is a reference to those who have believed.

From all you've posted, it appears that you don't agree with Paul's answer to the jailer's question of what he MUST DO to be saved then. Is that correct?

 

[timothyu]

Children (most) believe in their parent, but few do as they are told. People believe in Jesus but few attempt to do as they are told. Just as a parent will not throw a child out of thie house, God will let us remain here, but there is no parental guarantee for a child or believer in their future world.

 

[Paul McGraw]

timothyu - an interesting thought.

FreeGrace2 - there certainly are more verses that support the idea that belief is just the beginning of what God expects of us. But before I offer additional verses for you to disregard, let us tarry for a moment on one or two points.

(Jesus speaking) “And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell” Mark 9:43

Why do you dismiss this teaching? I agree that Jesus probably does not literally expect us to cut off our hands, but Jesus is clearly warning us that if we continue to sin the result is we go to hell. He did not say "unless you believe, in which case you can sin all you want and you will not go to hell." No, Jesus did not qualify his teaching on this point. I wish you would address the clear meaning of this passage.

Secondly, before we progress further, you said yes, you were familiar with the two ex-Christian musical celebrities who have renounced their faith. Do you believe they may still enter into heaven as of now when they have publicly denied Jesus? Don't you think Jesus will keep his word and deny them to the Father?

We all know many stories of ex-Christians who certainly seemed to fully believe in Christ, yet they fell away. Were they never in the hands of Jesus? If they were in His hands, how did they get out of His hands?

By the way, the parable of the differing soils is about Christians who fall from grace. You seem to be just choosing to ignore verses that do not meet your predetermined idea of what the Bible should say, according to you.

Here is what you posted above on this matter:
"I'm not judging these idiots. I assume they did believe in the saving work of Jesus Christ at some point in their life. But they got derailed along the line. Just read their stupid stories. Something rubbed them the wrong way and they fell off the tracks. Weak minds, and a weaker faith. And the Bible already told us that some will "wander from the faith". So it should be expected."

I agree with all of your statement. They did believe, yet they wandered from the faith, and now they have denied Jesus before men. Surely you do not believe that even now they are saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Children (most) believe in their parent, but few do as they are told. People believe in Jesus but few attempt to do as they are told. Just as a parent will not throw a child out of thie house, God will let us remain here, but there is no parental guarantee for a child or believer in their future world.

There are for God's children.

According to Romans 8:17a, believers, who are God's children, are heirs of God.

According to Jesus, all to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

 

[FreeGrace2]

timothyu - an interesting thought.

FreeGrace2 - there certainly are more verses that support the idea that belief is just the beginning of what God expects of us. But before I offer additional verses for you to disregard, let us tarry for a moment on one or two points.

Before we "tarry" on more points, of course God expects more from the believer than just saving faith in the work of Christ. We are in fact commanded to grow up in respect to our salvation. I wonder how that idea fits into your theological grid?

1 Pet 2:2 -
Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, ...

(Jesus speaking) “And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell” Mark 9:43

Why do you dismiss this teaching?

Where do you get the notion that I have dismissed this teaching? Have you engaged in self-mutilation? If not, why not? But really, why do you read this as literal?

I agree that Jesus probably does not literally expect us to cut off our hands, but Jesus is clearly warning us that if we continue to sin the result is we go to hell.

No He is not. If He were, He would be totally contradicted, because He said those He gives eternal life (which is WHEN they believe) shall never perish.

Why don't you see this obvious contradiction?

He did not say "unless you believe, in which case you can sin all you want and you will not go to hell." No, Jesus did not qualify his teaching on this point. I wish you would address the clear meaning of this passage.

He was using metaphors to stress the importance of avoiding sin. But your view has been that true believers won't sin.

Secondly, before we progress further, you said yes, you were familiar with the two ex-Christian musical celebrities who have renounced their faith. Do you believe they may still enter into heaven as of now when they have publicly denied Jesus? Don't you think Jesus will keep his word and deny them to the Father?

They WILL enter heaven, because, IF they had believed in Christ for salvation at some point, then Jesus already GAVE them the gift of eternal life. And on that basis, they shall never perish. John 10:28.

What you don't understand is what "deny" refers to here.

We all know many stories of ex-Christians who certainly seemed to fully believe in Christ, yet they fell away. Were they never in the hands of Jesus? If they were in His hands, how did they get out of His hands?

The best verse that explains all this is found in Rom 8:38- For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The red words mean that there is NOTHING that may occur either NOW or in the FUTURE that will separate us from Christ's love. Losing faith is something that can happen in the future. It is covered. And since Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, and eternal life is given WHEN one believes, no believer can ever lose salvation.

By the way, the parable of the differing soils is about Christians who fall from grace. You seem to be just choosing to ignore verses that do not meet your predetermined idea of what the Bible should say, according to you.

Where have I ignored any verse? Please stop impugning me by these false claims.

The parable of the soils is about 3 saved people and 1 unsaved person, the first soil.

Falling from grace refers, not to loss of salvation, but rather, being out of fellowship and in God's hand of discipline.

Here is what you posted above on this matter:
"I'm not judging these idiots. I assume they did believe in the saving work of Jesus Christ at some point in their life. But they got derailed along the line. Just read their stupid stories. Something rubbed them the wrong way and they fell off the tracks. Weak minds, and a weaker faith. And the Bible already told us that some will "wander from the faith". So it should be expected."

I agree with all of your statement. They did believe, yet they wandered from the faith, and now they have denied Jesus before men. Surely you do not believe that even now they are saved.

I believe that they will enter heaven based on what Jesus said in John 10:28.

The only issue now is WHY you still believe that someone who has been given eternal life can perish.

Please explain why your view is in conflict with what Jesus said in John 10:28.

Thanks.

 

[BCsenior]

IMO, it's a matter of having an acceptable heart attitude, which includes:
enduring belief-faith-trust in Jesus as Lord and Savior
enduring love for Jesus, which produces ...
enduring trying to be obedient to Jesus' commandments
enduring sincere confessing and repenting of sins
enduring practicing of righteousness
not falling away due to Christian persecution
not submitting to taking the mark of the beast

Then, specifically, there's NO way anyone gets into heaven
who has NOT repented of:
-- unforgiveness in his/her heart towards someone
-- hatred towards someone, which is the same as murder
(these exclusions are specifically promised in the NT)

 

[Paul McGraw]

FreeGrace2 - I do not think I have a theological grid. I am not even sure what that is.

Having exchanged a number of posts with you, it is abundantly clear to me that you know the Bible very well. I am reasonably certain that you are a person of goodwill and that you fully believe what you post.

At the present time, I can best sum up my personal understanding of these often debated issues by saying I can see both sides of the debate. I think verses can be found to support both positions, and that men of goodwill can believe either side of the argument. I do not believe that salvation depends on a perfect understanding of theology. I would like to come to Jesus like a little child and be accepted by Him as an innocent. Sadly for me, I have a very active and curious mind.

 

[Paul McGraw]

IMO, it's a matter of having an acceptable heart attitude, which includes:
enduring belief-faith-trust in Jesus as Lord and Savior
enduring love for Jesus, which produces ...
enduring trying to be obedient to Jesus' commandments
enduring sincere confessing and repenting of sins
enduring practicing of righteousness

I like this. It is simple and elegant. I have no idea if the theology is correct or not, but I like it.

 

[BCsenior]

I like this. It is simple and elegant.
I have no idea if the theology is correct or not, but I like it.

Okay, is there a point or two that you'd like to discuss?

 

[BCsenior]

I think verses can be found to support both positions ...

Try reconciling them ... by viewing the NT word "believe"
as meaning much more than mere intellectual belief
and even a deep heart-felt belief.
I.E. the NT word "belief" includes obedience.
True saving belief includes obedience, repenting of sins, etc.

 

[Paul McGraw]

FreeGrace2 - thank you for clearly stating your belief that the ex-Christian musical celebrities are still bound for heaven. If those who deny Jesus before men are still going to heaven, then there is not much more to be said in terms of an argument. If your understanding is correct, Heaven will be very full, and for that, I will be grateful, for I will be in that Holy place.

But Jesus said "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." Matthew 7:13-14.

So I have serious doubts that your understanding of scripture on this particular issue is correct. It will be of interest to me to learn of your understanding on a few additional verses. I will post that separately.

 

[BCsenior]

So I have serious doubts that your (FG2) understanding of scripture
on this particular issue is correct.

And what other issue has any relevance compared to this one?
... the issue of whether unrepentant sinners are going to heaven
whether they are BACs or non-believers.

Everyone needs to confess and repent of their on-going sins.

NO ONE who has unforgiven sin will be allowed into heaven
(ref: many NT verses).

IMO, this does not include last minute sin(s) before one dies,
which is covered by one's acceptable heart attitude at the time of death.

 

[timothyu]

According to Jesus, all to whom He gives eternal life

There is the catch. All who the Father 'gives eternal life'. Not all are up for consideration, especially those who do not wish to do the will of the Father. What purpose would they even serve under His Kingdom? Theirs is not of the Kingdom but continue in the worldly ways of man.

 

[timothyu]

I.E. the NT word "belief" includes obedience.
True saving belief includes obedience, repenting of sins, etc.

Exactly. A change of will from the self serving traditional ways of man to the selfless will of God. Reject the ways of the world for the ways of the Kingdom

 

[timothyu]

But Jesus said "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." Matthew 7:13-14.

Self justification of deeds while saying Lord Lord is contrary to Jesus' teachings, yes.

 

[BCsenior]

There is the catch. All who the Father 'gives eternal life'. Not all are up for consideration, especially those who do not wish to do the will of the Father. What purpose would they even serve under His Kingdom? Theirs is not of the Kingdom but continue in the worldly ways of man.

Matthew 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me,
‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name,
cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me,
you who practice lawlessness!’

2 types of so-called "believers" ...
The BLUE shall enter.
The RED shall not enter.

 

[Paul McGraw]

Thank you timothyu and BCsenior. I know that my understanding is imperfect. Only if God permits me to enter into Heaven will all things be made clear to me. It is therefore of great value to me to learn what has been made clear to others that I may still be unclear about.

Perhaps I am deceiving myself, but I feel very certain, very clearly that one who denies Christ to the world without any duress, can have no hope of heaven unless and until they ask God for forgiveness. There is no shadow of doubt in my soul on this issue. I have faith in the Holy Spirit, and I believe the Spirit would not let me feel so certain about this matter if I was wrong.

 

[BCsenior]

Perhaps I am deceiving myself, but I feel very certain, very clearly that one who denies Christ to the world without any duress, can have no hope of heaven unless and until they ask God for forgiveness.

IMO, asking forgiveness for denying Christ to the world without any duress
would not cut it ... a person needs to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, etc. etc.

IMO, asking for forgiveness for NOT accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior, etc.
is NOT an acceptable substitute.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then, specifically, there's NO way anyone gets into heaven
who has NOT repented of:
-- unforgiveness in his/her heart towards someone
-- hatred towards someone, which is the same as murder
(these exclusions are specifically promised in the NT)

Since Jesus Christ died for sins "once and for all", you are in error.

Heb 9:28 - so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear
a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting ...

John 1:29 - The next day John saw Jesus coming towards him and exclaimed, "Look, that is the Lamb of God who is to take away the sin of the world! ...

1 John 3:5 - And ye know that he was manifested to take away sins; and in him is no sin. ... And you
have knowledge that he came to take away sin: and in him there is no sin. ...

 

[timothyu]

How did He take away sin? By bringing us and doing what was required of Him to bring about the Kingdom. There is no sin under the Kingdom of God but there certainly is within the world of man and among those who defend it's ways (refusing to trade it in for the better option). Believing in a person is not good enough, but rather we must believe and practice what He stood for. On the bright side it will relieve many of the stresses of political banter.