Which Abominations are OK?

[HARK!]

I see. Have you found in scripture where anyone was destroyed for eating these abominable animals?

Years ago, before I was Torah observant, I ate some squid; and it was almost the end of me.

I know this isn't scripture; and I know it's just anecdotal evidence; but I have first hand experience with the wrath that can follow breaking squid law.

I know that YHWH disciplines those who he loves; and after I ate that squid; I was feeling like I was getting very close to him.

 

[Junia]

Did He declare it abominable in the sense that it is a spiritual defilement (because it twists His Image) or is the unclean meat "detestable" in the sense that, as we know, it is bad for the body?

I personally do not eat the unclean animals or blood, because I know that the diet the Creator gave is best for our bodies, but if I happen to eat pig that someone gives to me while at their party, or from some ministry that feeds the needy...I will give thanks and eat it.

I believe that there is a distinction.

agree with this 100 per cent. i admit i do eat pork and occasionally shellfish but is it good for the body? probably not. am i condemned if eat it? no way

homosexuality ia s breaking of God's moral laws. we are still to keep these.

dietary laws are a ceremonial law. i beleive we no longer under these.

i do think also, the OT law regards food was a way of distnguishing the Israelites as set apart? whereas we christians have the swal of the Holy Spirit in us, so we look different from the non believing world? our beahviosu is to mirror that of Christ Jesus, so people look at us and wonder why we different and not indulging in nasty behaviour

 

[Junia]

Years ago, before I was Torah observant, I ate some squid; and it was almost the end of me.

I know this isn't scripture; and I know it's just anecdotal evidence; but I have first hand experience with the wrath that can follow breaking squid law.

I know that YHWH disciplines those who he loves; and after I ate that squid; I was feeling like I was getting very close to him.

yup. i get that. i am not alcoholic but am not supposed to drink it (or only very little) due to health issues. one evenign i felt the Lord was telling me to be careful and not drink more than a single glass of dry white wine. sadly i went ahead and another 2 glasses. i was not drunk or even tipsy but for the next 3 days my health conditions were flaring up and i was pretty poorly. because alcohol screws up the medicacations i'm on. so yeah, lesson learnt.

 

[nolidad]

How do we know which abominations are OK with YHWH, and which ones he finds abominable?

For example:

Leviticus 11:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.


Eating shrimp is an abomination according to Leviticus.

Leviticus 18:22 King James Version (KJV)
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

So is homosexuality according to Leviticus.

How do we know where to draw the line?

Well you are only looking at the English and not the original Hebrew. And a careful read also shows that foods are an abomination unto us, but in Proverbs actions are an abomination unto the Lord.

Also th eintensity of the verb matters.

and given that Jesus has declared all foods clean eels and Lobsters and pork chops are not unclean anymore!

 

[Junia]

Some seem to believe that some things that YHWH has declared abominable are OK. I would like to know which ones people believe these are, and why they believe that they are OK, despite what YHWH says.

I have seen believers go extreme on this though- there is a site callled demonbusters.com (no i am not joking) and a list fo items that can cause demons in your home are listed (disclaimer: i do believe in the demonic and yes cursed items or idols can be demonic) on the list is images of frogs or owls or bats because there are classed in Leviticus 11 as abomiantions. also i have met some christians who believe owning a pet cat can cause dewmons because Egyptians worshipped cats or that any image of an animal is sinful. i guess in my opinion that seems extreme but i realise for some people these are real convictions and of course we are to be sensitive to weak consciences over certian things. i do have a deliveranc eminsiter acquainance who takes these htings very seriously )she wont shop secondhand in case a demonised person wore the clothes etc and wont ever stay overnight or let anyone hug her in case they transfer demons. that to me seems a bit OCD, and speaking as someone who has had a form of OCD around religion, i think folowing that path would not be good for me personally. but to each their own.

some time ago i was in the midst of very bad religious OCD an dprobably struggling with ehat they call a religious spirit and one day i kept hearing these words when i prayed "avoid shellfish and pork, you are Holy and set apart." for w hile i obeyed the voice thinking God may be upset if i didnt. then someone shpwed me a video by Derek Prince who cast ademon out of lady who was teeling her she was sinnign by eating pig meat. and i was otld my church it was fine.

now am not in qite a bad place as i was then thank God, but i do struggle a bit still. when am on a more even keel and hearign God clearly again i might take this back to God and ask Him if i t was HIm teling me to avoid those foods. i will happpily give them up if it is. i just dont want to be putting mysefl under law and in danger of rejecting Jesus's atonement.

there are scary verses on Hebrews about faling from grace and trampling the atonement of Jesus underfoot by puting ourrselves under law. i dont want to do that

 

[HARK!]

Jesus has declared all foods clean

No he didn't.

 

[Junia]

Well you are only looking at the English and not the original Hebrew. And a careful read also shows that foods are an abomination unto us, but in Proverbs actions are an abomination unto the Lord.

Also th eintensity of the verb matters.

and given that Jesus has declared all foods clean eels and Lobsters and pork chops are not unclean anymore!

I do wonder if it is like the Sabbath. given for OUR benefit.l so it isnt that God gets mad at us if we dont do it, nor do we go to hell, but we lose the benefits of a day of rest for our souls ad bodies. am not able to work at the moment but my week usually is full of doctors apppointments and therapy and jsut running my household ( i live semi independently- i live alone but have carers coming in) so even in lockdown and unemployed my weeks are busy. so even i lose out if i o dnt get sabbath rest. i cannot imagine what it must do to those who work 9-5, 5 or 6 days a week

 

[HARK!]

there are scary verses on Hebrews about faling from grace and trampling the atonement of Jesus underfoot by puting ourrselves under law. i dont want to do that

What does YHWH say in the Torah?

(CLV) Hb 10:28
Anyone repudiating Moses' LAW (This is the Torah) is dying without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
(CLV) Hb 10:29
Of how much worse punishment, are you supposing, will he be counted worthy who tramples on the Son of God, and deems the blood of the covenant by which he is hallowed contaminating, and outrages the spirit of grace?

Grace for what? If there is no law; and sin is transgression of the law, then there can be no transgression; because there is nothing to transgress. If there is no transgression; then there is no sin. If there is no sin; what need I of grace?

Grace takes away sins that were committed before we came to Yahshua.

When we come to Yahshua; we are to follow his example of obedience.

(CLV) Hb 10:26
For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins,

Again, how can we sin; if there is no mandate for obedience to the Torah?

Here is how Paul said we should live our lives:

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

 

[dqhall]

How do we know which abominations are OK with YHWH, and which ones he finds abominable?

For example:

Leviticus 11:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.


Eating shrimp is an abomination according to Leviticus.

Leviticus 18:22 King James Version (KJV)
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

So is homosexuality according to Leviticus.

How do we know where to draw the line?

Proverbs 12:22 King James Version (KJV)
Proverbs 12:22 (KJV) Lying lips are abomination to the Lord: but they that deal truly are his delight.

Matthew 15:11 (WEB) “That which enters into the mouth doesn’t defile the man; but that which proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.”

If you were an honest person, you might find scientific studies that show shrimp is no less healthy than beef.

 

[HARK!]

Proverbs 12:22 King James Version (KJV)
Proverbs 12:22 (KJV) Lying lips are abomination to the Lord: but they that deal truly are his delight.

Matthew 15:11 (WEB) “That which enters into the mouth doesn’t defile the man; but that which proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.”

If you were an honest person, you might find scientific studies that show shrimp is no less healthy than beef.

Trust in the YHWH with all your heart; and lean not unto your own understanding.

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

 

[nolidad]

No he didn't.

Yes, He did!

Matthew 15:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

So eating an eel does not defile a man!

Mark 7:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

Having a pork chop does not defile a man!

1 Timothy 4:3-5 King James Version (KJV)
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

People are now free to eat or not eat!

 

[Junia]

What does YHWH say in the Torah?

(CLV) Hb 10:28
Anyone repudiating Moses' LAW (This is the Torah) is dying without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
(CLV) Hb 10:29
Of how much worse punishment, are you supposing, will he be counted worthy who tramples on the Son of God, and deems the blood of the covenant by which he is hallowed contaminating, and outrages the spirit of grace?

Grace for what? If there is no law; and sin is transgression of the law, then there can be no transgression; because there is nothing to transgress. If there is no transgression; then there is no sin. If there is no sin; what need I of grace?

Grace takes away sins that were committed before we came to Yahshua.

When we come to Yahshua; we are to follow his example of obedience.

(CLV) Hb 10:26
For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins,

Again, how can we sin; if there is no mandate for obedience to the Torah?

Here is how Paul said we should live our lives:

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

i thought the law we gentiles were meant to obey was the moral law. i thought the cermonial law was only for the Jews? am confused

 

[Junia]

in the NT we were given one law for diet- avoiding strangled meat and meat wirh blood in it. because strangled meat mean the blood didnt drain from it when animal killed. people who worshipped idols in Galatia ate strangled meat sacrificed to idols

 

[Dkh587]

agree with this 100 per cent. i admit i do eat pork and occasionally shellfish but is it good for the body? probably not. am i condemned if eat it? no way

homosexuality ia s breaking of God's moral laws. we are still to keep these.

dietary laws are a ceremonial law. i beleive we no longer under these.

i do think also, the OT law regards food was a way of distnguishing the Israelites as set apart? whereas we christians have the swal of the Holy Spirit in us, so we look different from the non believing world? our beahviosu is to mirror that of Christ Jesus, so people look at us and wonder why we different and not indulging in nasty behaviour

God’s commandments are for ALL his people to be set apart and distinguished as a people.

Christians don’t look any different from the world if they do and eat all the things that the world does and eats.

Christian are called to be set-apart.

1 Thessonians 4:7
For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

 

[Junia]

God’s commandments are for ALL his people to be set apart and distinguished as a people.

Christians don’t look any different from the world if they do and eat all the things that the world eats.

we dont do the sin that the world does. we appear different by keeping th emoral law. no swearing, gossip, sexual immorality, drunkenness, malice etc believe me we appear very differnt from the world by keping the moral law

 

[Junia]

but at the end of the day, to each their own. it is a matter of personal conviction

 

[Junia]

God’s commandments are for ALL his people to be set apart and distinguished as a people.

Christians don’t look any different from the world if they do and eat all the things that the world does and eats.

Christian are called to be set-apart.

1 Thessonians 4:7
For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

we have been made holy by the blood of Jesus. imputed righteousness. but we are to keep the moral law, the 10 commandments, the NT laws. we have His holy spirit in us which tells us how to live these out.

but at the end of the day, Jesus knows. when we get to Heaven or the New Earth, i expect we will al be in one accord with these things. until then, we just live as best we can and thank God for Jesus's blood which covers us

were not the Galatians christians just like us???? why did God go easy on them, saying they didnt have the burden of the Ceremonial Law but we do??? how are we differnt from them??

 

[Hammster]

Years ago, before I was Torah observant, I ate some squid; and it was almost the end of me.

I know this isn't scripture; and I know it's just anecdotal evidence; but I have first hand experience with the wrath that can follow breaking squid law.

I know that YHWH disciplines those who he loves; and after I ate that squid; I was feeling like I was getting very close to him.

I eat calamari every time I go out for Italian. So your point is moot.

And that doesn’t answer my question.

 

[Junia]

I eat calamari every time I go out for Italian. So your point is moot.

see, i could gladly give up pork shellfish etc is God wanted me too but no way could i keep the other things

- not wearing mixed fabrics. am low income.my clothes are thrift stores
- joining messianic congregation. my nearest one is not ona bus route
- meat an dmilk separate- i have not space for another refrigerator
- i live alone and dont have nayone to celebrate a whole passover seder with. or any other festival. i do keep the Lord's SUpper so am not violating GOd;s commands re: feasts
- give a tenth of income. some weeks i can give that, some weeks more than that. some it al goes to necessary bills

i am unclean anyway as per the Torah. i have a mix of christian and jewish ancestry. my Hebrew ancestors broke God';s law by mixing with gentile wives. my mum is gentile.

so what is th epoint in me just keeping ONE commandment? i'd be going to hell anyway if i wasn't saved in Jesus. since i am, is there still a point to it?

 

[Junia]

added to fact that for me, just keeping the 10 commandments is a huge struggle. i have been born again and am nowhere near as wicked and sinful as i used ot be, praise God but i will say i m avery far from being a goo dperson. am not even human at times..... God will make me clean though. heal me. i hang on to that fact. We all get changed from glory into glory..

i expect people like mysefl get saved but do not get the same reward in heaven as the Torah observant types. narrow is the way Jesus said. few find it.... so i think ther emust be a basic salvation which all born again believers acheive and something much narrower and more elite. possibly the 144, 000 (the Jews) will be the Elite in heaven? most likely. i bear no grudge for that because i love the Jewish people and i am a big suporter of Israel.

then there are those gentiles who have done mighty thiings for God eg Billy Graham. David Wilkerson, Coreeie Ten Boom, all theose martyred for Jesus too.

the rest of us are probably considered the least in the kingdom (as we have not kept His laws perfectly) but His kindness and mercy means we get in there.