Where's God?

[doubtingmerle]

[duplicate post]

 

[Ed1wolf]

Ed1wolf said: ↑
These laws are part of who He is, He cannot go against His own nature.

cw: So God has no power to grow us spiritually in another way other than with pain and suffering. Ok. I bet many other Christians would disagree with you here.

Of course not. I never said that. Studying His word, obeying His word, and partaking of the sacraments also help you to grow spiritually.

ed: Yes, if it was necessary to produce a greater good.

cw: What could possibly be a greater good for anyone in that situation?

The most obvious case would be that his suffering led to him to convert and receive salvation and eternal life. But there could also be other things that we dont know about at present.

ed: No, they are not good things, I never said that. I said God allows them to occur for greater goods. He can bring good out of the evil of suffering both for the sufferer and their family and friends.

cw: Can he stop a kid from being hit by a bus or a kid getting raped?

Of course. He has many times.

cw: Why can't he just talk to us and convince us of truth instead of causing us pain and suffering? The bible shows that he can do that.

Yes, many Christians rarely suffer. It often depends on where you live. If you live in a society based on Christian principles you are less likely to suffer.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Good, we agree that suffering is not good. The man in the OP picture is suffering. If suffering is not good, where is God in that picture?

Already covered that earlier.

 

[Ed1wolf]

If suffering is necessary, why is it not good?

I don't think suffering is necessary.

I didn't say it is necessary, I said it is sometimes necessary. Similar to war, sometimes suffering is a necessary evil to accomplish a greater good. How do you know suffering is not necessary? If you believe in evolution, and there was never any suffering you would not exist. In an atheistic evolutionary worldview, suffering was and is an absolute good if you wanted humans to exist and continue to evolve.

 

[cvanwey]

If you live in a society based on Christian principles you are less likely to suffer.

Are you sure about that? Christ does not instead simply state to not own other humans as property. He instead takes a passive approach, not condemning slavery, but remaining almost neutral towards the entire topic. We abolished it on our own accord, not according to Jesus and His teachings...

- Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.

- Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.

Jesus seems to, at least in part, advocate for the notion that woman are (less than) men.

- I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. I do not let women teach men or have authority over them.

And don't even get me started on homosexuality....

The point being, is that <IN SPITE OF> Christianity and it's teachings, many societies have opted to move away from some 'Christian based values'.

Or how about the 'Sermon on the Mount"?

 

[Ed1wolf]

Does God want people to suffer in a way that is not good?

No, He never WANTS Christians to suffer. Sometimes He does want to punish an unbeliever for an evil act. But sometimes He allows it for Christians for our good.

dm: If yes, then how can he be good?

If no, then why doesn't he stop it?

See above why He allows it sometimes.

 

[cvanwey]

But sometimes He allows it for Christians for our good.

(i.e.) What would be the 'good' in allowing Christian children to starve to death, be raped/tortured/murdered, or to die of cancer or some other painful disease/virus - (like Covid 19)?

 

[doubtingmerle]

No, He never WANTS Christians to suffer. Sometimes He does want to punish an unbeliever for an evil act. But sometimes He allows it for Christians for our good.

Wait, he never wants suffering but sometimes he wants it? Suffering is never good but sometimes he allows it because it is good?

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!

 

[doubtingmerle]

You sound like a lot of atheists who think that if God exists He is obligated to provide you with a perfect life.

You might want to listen more closely to atheists. I never heard any complain that life has challenges and adventures. Pain has a purpose. If ice cubes didn't feel cold or if odors didn't stink, one would sit on ice blocks for hours or walk right into the bathroom after I did my thing. Painful nerve impulses are a good part of life. Challenges make life interesting. This is not what we are talking about.

The problem is with unnecessary pain. Long periods of agony from covid are not good. The untimely deaths due to covid are not good. If there was a magic cure that made it all go away, we all would want it. An all powerful God could have seen this coming and prevented the first covid case. An all powerful god could quickly have healed the patient in the OP. But he did not.

 

[Silmarien]

Like Trump, who was holding a Bible instead of his Bible, your resurrected person appears to have a brain instead of his brain. For if a person has been dead for centuries, the brain is mush and the particles could be scattered far and wide. Your God might be able to make another brain, but it is difficult to see how the new brain he makes for me would in any way be me.

Eh, I wouldn't call a brain a possession in the same way a Bible is. You don't own your brain. In some strange sense, you are your brain. And if you can be your brain the first time, why not a second time as well?

Are you unfamiliar with how difficult the question of personal identity already is? 98% of the atoms in our bodies are replaced annually, so the particles in your brain are already in constant flux as it is. The actual physical material of our bodies does not in fact make us who we are, and the paradox of the continuity of self is basically insoluble. Are we the same people we were from one moment to the next, or do we merely have the memories of someone who no longer exists? What about an amnesiac? Are they who they were before?

The impossible paradoxes associated with the sense of self are a big part of why I'm a theist in the first place. If God can give genuine being to a unique self-aware person once, individuated from everyone else, I don't see why he wouldn't be able to recreate the same person a second time.

But we digress. The person in the picture is suffering. It is not good that he is suffering. A good God would want the suffering to stop. A God that can transplant a brain into a corpse and bring it back to life would be able to make the suffering stop.

This sort of reasoning always frustrates me, since it seems to assume that Christianity is a theory of reality that describes a different universe... that there's some sort of doctrinal statement in it whereby God does in fact eliminate all suffering in the here and now, and nobody ever dies. But one of the promises in the Gospel is actually that you will suffer.

God is good. God is not, however, nice. What you're asking for here is an answer to the Problem of Evil, and you don't need a photo to ask that, since everyone suffers already, even without Covid-19. Honestly, I think something like persistent, serious mental health issues or extreme social marginalization is a way bigger question than the fact that everyone dies.

There's this quote from John Calvin that really resonates with me, since I'm apparently dark in the same way, lol. I don't think I'd be able to track it down again, so paraphrased, he basically says that the fact that our lives aren't in our own hands, that every instant could actually be our last, and this is what ultimately drives a person to faith. Just say "no" to the wish granting, djinni in a bottle version of Christianity. What we trust is that God will help us, even if this doesn't ultimately mean that he will spare us, and that everything will be redeemed in the end.

 

[doubtingmerle]

God is good. God is not, however, nice.

What kind of goodness is that? Sounds like a rule-follower who does what the rules say, but has no compassion for the hurts of others.

I would think a perfectly good God would also be nice.

 

[SPF]

i never said he was obligated to keep all creatures healthy.

Sometimes his timing has not come. Over 500,000 people have suffered with COVID, only to die from it.

Is God morally obligated to heal all people sick from COVID?

If so, wouldn’t He also be obligated to heal people from all sickness derived from a virus?

And if He is obligated to do that, why just a virus, why not sickness from bacteria as well?

Where exactly do you draw the line for what God is Morally obligated to do?

 

[Silmarien]

What kind of goodness is that? Sounds like a rule-follower who does what the rules say, but has no compassion for the hurts of others.

I would think a perfectly good God would also be nice.

Really? I don't think that niceness is even that much of a virtue, since it often involves not being harsh enough to intervene when people are engaging in self-destructive behavior. (I am super liberal, so learning when to say "No, this is bad" has been very much a work in progress.)

Good is not nice. Kind is not nice. I do believe that God is compassionate, but I don't think he's in the business of making things easy for us.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Are you sure about that? Christ does not instead simply state to not own other humans as property. He instead takes a passive approach, not condemning slavery, but remaining almost neutral towards the entire topic. We abolished it on our own accord, not according to Jesus and His teachings...

- Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.

- Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.

No, both Jesus and His disciples as Jews believed in what the Torah said about slavery that it was voluntary for most people and only involuntary for POWs and criminals. Read Exodus 21:16(shows you could not force people into slavery), Deut. 24:17 (shows foreigners are to be treated like Jews), therefore could sell themselves like jews as shown in Leviticus 25:47. And of course the verses you quoted apply, but only to voluntary slavery.

cv: Jesus seems to, at least in part, advocate for the notion that woman are (less than) men.

- I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. I do not let women teach men or have authority over them.

No, He just gives women different roles, women cannot teach adult men believers but they can teach children and adult men unbelievers. It is similar to you and your boss, you each have a different role, but it doesn't make you any less valuable than your boss. These roles dont apply outside the church, in society Christians have lifted women up to all kinds of roles. The Romans treated women horribly and Christians lifted women greatly in Roman society. Most of the women involved in the suffrage movement were Christians. And only in societies founded on Christian principles have women's movements.

cv: And don't even get me started on homosexuality....

The point being, is that <IN SPITE OF> Christianity and it's teachings, many societies have opted to move away from some 'Christian based values'.

Or how about the 'Sermon on the Mount"?

Yes, some societies have moved away from teachings on sexual behavior and look how it has affected them negatively and will affect them negatively in the future. Also, societies have moved away from the Christian high value of human life. And you can see the negative effects on society. But slavery was ended by Christians due to the principles stated above.

 

[Ed1wolf]

(i.e.) What would be the 'good' in allowing Christian children to starve to death, be raped/tortured/murdered, or to die of cancer or some other painful disease/virus - (like Covid 19)?

We dont always know, but we see in biblical examples that He always ultimately brings good out of evil and suffering for believers and their children. We will find out someday.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Wait, he never wants suffering but sometimes he wants it? Suffering is never good but sometimes he allows it because it is good?

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!

I said He never wants it for His people, but sometimes unbelievers have to suffer their punishment as a consequence of their sin. God is just and sometimes brings judgement in this world, He doesn't always wait to the next.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Of course not. I never said that. Studying His word, obeying His word, and partaking of the sacraments also help you to grow spiritually.

I am confused. If God can use a different method other than pain and suffering then why doesn't he?

The most obvious case would be that his suffering led to him to convert and receive salvation and eternal life. But there could also be other things that we don't know about at present.

Could God lead someone to salvation without pain and suffering?

Of course. He has many times.

That has yet to be demonstrated.

Yes, many Christians rarely suffer. It often depends on where you live. If you live in a society based on Christian principles you are less likely to suffer.

Can you back up this claim?

Also, I know of no one christian or not that has not suffered in some way. We have all experienced loss and emotional pain if we have lived even a short time.

 

[cvanwey]

No, both Jesus and His disciples as Jews believed in what the Torah said about slavery that it was voluntary for most people and only involuntary for POWs and criminals. Read Exodus 21:16(shows you could not force people into slavery), Deut. 24:17 (shows foreigners are to be treated like Jews), therefore could sell themselves like jews as shown in Leviticus 25:47. And of course the verses you quoted apply, but only to voluntary slavery.

You might want to brush up a bit on your assertions. You skipped over some parts. Involuntary was also extended to some men, women, and children. See below:

2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.

If the wife and children wish to go with the freed 'slave', the law states they are to remain with the slave master.

Furthermore:

5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

Which is to mean, the law allows for the slave master to trick their slave. The slave master provides the slave with a companion. When they have kids, the slave master claims permanent stake to his kids. No 'right minded' slave would abandon their own kids, would they? And if they do not have kids, you really think the male slave would abandon his wife?

As we continue:

7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.

It is up to the male to decide the fate of the female. He has little restrictions. In this case, we also see demonstration of men > women -- (just like below).

No, He just gives women different roles, women cannot teach adult men believers but they can teach children and adult men unbelievers. It is similar to you and your boss, you each have a different role, but it doesn't make you any less valuable than your boss. These roles dont apply outside the church, in society Christians have lifted women up to all kinds of roles. The Romans treated women horribly and Christians lifted women greatly in Roman society. Most of the women involved in the suffrage movement were Christians. And only in societies founded on Christian principles have women's movements.

You have again rationalized your assertion. Did you happen to read the entire passage?

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man, she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Hence, I guess it's safe to say that God 'hates' women pastors, preachers, ministers, etc. I guess it's also safe to tell your daughter that she can choose any profession she wishes, as long as it's NOT a pastor, preacher, minister, etc... And when she asks you why, you can be confident in telling her... "Well Sally, women were the ones deceived, not the men." I'm sure that conversation would go over handly

Yes, some societies have moved away from teachings on sexual behavior and look how it has affected them negatively and will affect them negatively in the future. Also, societies have moved away from the Christian high value of human life. And you can see the negative effects on society. But slavery was ended by Christians due to the principles stated above.

You glossed over virtually every point made. Great.

The point of the video is to demonstrate that the U.S., and virtually every civil society, has moved away from some/many of Jesus' 'teachings'. Including [you] most likely. If you don't believe me, maybe we can go over some of them, one at a time, for clarity?

Do you think...

Divorce should be illegal?
If someone slaps you, do you give them the other cheek to slap?
If someone wants to sue you, do you lay down and give them everything?
If someone slanders your character, do you set back and rejoice?
Do you still adhere to all 613 Commandments?
Have you given away your possessions to demonstrate your faith, and as a follower?

 

[cvanwey]

We dont always know, but we see in biblical examples that He always ultimately brings good out of evil and suffering for believers and their children. We will find out someday.

Please do me a favor, and at least try? Your answer appears uncritical and sloppy Please read your own provided answer from my perspective...

Example: Say you were to ask me.... 'Why does your god like to torture and murder young girls?" And I respond....

(Your provided answer) "We don't always know, but we see in examples that He always ultimately brings good out of evil and suffering for believers and their children. We will find out someday."

Would you accept the above answer as sufficient? I doubt it. You would instead see how this answer can be placed to virtually any assertion about any asserted deity.

So please, try again...

(i.e.) What would be the 'good' in allowing Christian children to starve to death, be raped/tortured/murdered, or to die of cancer or some other painful disease/virus - (like Covid 19)?

 

[Ed1wolf]

Ed1wolf said: ↑
Of course not. I never said that. Studying His word, obeying His word, and partaking of the sacraments also help you to grow spiritually.

cw: I am confused. If God can use a different method other than pain and suffering then why doesn't he?

As I stated earlier every person and situation is unique. He uses different methods for different people and different situations.

ed: The most obvious case would be that his suffering led to him to convert and receive salvation and eternal life. But there could also be other things that we don't know about at present.

cw: Could God lead someone to salvation without pain and suffering?

Yes, He uses many ways, like convincing evidence to name one.

ed: Of course. He has many times.

cw: That has yet to be demonstrated.

He has used bus drivers who put the brakes on just in time and mothers with intuition about a baby sitter or family member or teacher or priest among others.

ed: Yes, many Christians rarely suffer. It often depends on where you live. If you live in a society based on Christian principles you are less likely to suffer.

cw: Can you back up this claim?

A Christian living in a Muslim or Communist nation would be much more likely to suffer than a Christian living in the US.

cw: Also, I know of no one christian or not that has not suffered in some way. We have all experienced loss and emotional pain if we have lived even a short time.

True, but I was primarily referring to suffering caused by society. But generally Christians by following Gods laws many sources of suffering can be reduced or even eliminated. See my earlier post to doubtingmerle where I explain in more detail.