Where's God?

[doubtingmerle]

Well there are many of God's laws that would help protect you from many different diseases. As far as COVID, God commands us to generally obey the government authorities so you should do what the experts say to prevent exposure. In addition, treating your body like the Temple of God as the bible says should cause you to eat healthy and not engage in unhealthy behaviors like smoking and drug use. And it should encourage you to exercise. Then obeying His laws about sex will prevent you from engaging in promiscuous sex thereby preventing you from getting STDs. Also, Christ's teaching about not living a life of violence will help avoid the ICU. All of these teachings can help prevent you from ever ending up in an ICU.

We all agree that healthy living can make us more healthy.

But you seem to be moving the goalposts. I remind you that this is what you said:

Generally If you live according to God's moral teachings you will probably not ever be in an ICU.

And that is a remarkable (and wrong) claim.

Now back to the man with covid in the OP picture. We could all Monday morning quarterback and say that if he had been more careful he might not be there. I get that. The medical staff in the picture are not judging him for catching COVID. They are trying to minimize the suffering and save his life.

Again, where is God in that picture? Why is he letting that man suffer?

 

[cvanwey]

Why is he letting that man suffer?

Maybe for the very same reason(s) He allows thousands of children to starve to death daily?

World Child Hunger Facts - World Hunger Education - World Hunger News

 

[Ed1wolf]

Can god not spiritual grow someone that does not involve pain and suffering?

Obviously some Christians dont have a great deal of pain and suffering in their life but they still grow spiritually but often the greatest Christians have had to go thru great pain and suffering, like Peter and Paul.

 

[Ed1wolf]

We all agree that healthy living can make us more healthy.

But you seem to be moving the goalposts. I remind you that this is what you said:

And that is a remarkable (and wrong) claim.

No, my claim that you are less likely to end up in an ICU if you live according to God's laws is not wrong as I demonstrated above.

dm: Now back to the man with covid in the OP picture. We could all Monday morning quarterback and say that if he had been more careful he might not be there. I get that. The medical staff in the picture are not judging him for catching COVID. They are trying to minimize the suffering and save his life.

Again, where is God in that picture? Why is he letting that man suffer?

There could be any number of reasons. If the man is a Christian He may allow it for spiritual growth, if he is not a Christian He may be allowing it to happen to reveal to him his mortality so that he may repent and turn to God. There may be other reasons that we will not know until the next life.

 

[Caliban]

It seems many have a uncritical response for every possible outcome. If he gets sick--he is being tested by God or made spiritually strong. If he dies--it is Gods will. If he gets better--God healed him. They just cant't loose. I find this ridiculous and morally simplistic.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Obviously some Christians dont have a great deal of pain and suffering in their life but they still grow spiritually but often the greatest Christians have had to go thru great pain and suffering, like Peter and Paul.

Why? Can God figure out how to teach Christians to grow spiritually without pain and suffering?

I let my children sometimes have to deal with consequences of their actions to teach them. However, I would never let them run into the street when a car is coming to teach them a lesson, because I love them.

 

[doubtingmerle]

No, my claim that you are less likely to end up in an ICU if you live according to God's laws is not wrong as I demonstrated above.

Uh, no, your claim was, "If you live according to God's moral teachings you will probably not ever be in an ICU." I see you have completely backed down from that claim. You have changed it to a list of good health advice, and suggested that following good health practices tends to promote good health. We all agree that following the good health advice you list promotes good health. We don't agree with your original claim.

 

[doubtingmerle]

There could be any number of reasons. If the man is a Christian He may allow it for spiritual growth, if he is not a Christian He may be allowing it to happen to reveal to him his mortality so that he may repent and turn to God. There may be other reasons that we will not know until the next life.

So the medical staff shown in the OP is working to stop the suffering. Meanwhile, your God may have any one of a number of reasons to make this man suffer. They differ with God. They want less suffering. God, according to you, could be wanting more suffering.

I don't think suffering has near the good effect that you seem to think it has. But suppose suffering does wanders for people. Then why would anybody try to prevent this man from suffering? If the best thing that can happen to him is that he suffers, then the doctors would be doing him a disservice by treating him.

 

[cvanwey]

Instead of playing Where's Waldo, let's play Where's God. In the picture below, where's God?

Looks like this thread brings to light the "law of parsimony".

Here's what looks to be the plausible conclusions to your question of... "Where's God in this picture?"

A. God is imaginary
B. God chooses not to clearly intervene here, in this specific case
C. God exists, but does not intervene in medical affairs
D. God answers prayer on His terms, not ours
E. God does not respond to intercessory or petitionary prayers at all
F. God is helping, by giving such humans the wisdom and know-how to treat this patient
etc............

Again, using Occam's Razor, which conclusion seems most/more likely? Which conclusion above needs the least amount of elaboration, special considerations, special pleading, special circumstances, etc?

 

[doubtingmerle]

and the classical Christian answer to the Problem of Evil is really that death and sin don't have the final word and all will one day be redeemed.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but in case your weren't aware, the odds against us surviving death are astronomical. After all, cognitive functions cease if there is no brain function, and brains can't function after death.

 

[doubtingmerle]

often the greatest Christians have had to go thru great pain and suffering, like Peter and Paul.

It is one thing to say it is possible to survive suffering and make the most of it.

It is quite a different thing to say that the suffering is good.

 

[Silmarien]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but in case your weren't aware, the odds against us surviving death are astronomical. After all, cognitive functions cease if there is no brain function, and brains can't function after death.

That is assuming that both atheism and materialism are true. "God doesn't exist because the odds against surviving death are astronomical" would be a very strange argument.

 

[doubtingmerle]

That is assuming that both atheism and materialism are true. "God doesn't exist because the odds against surviving death are astronomical" would be a very strange argument.

I did not say, "God doesn't exist because the odds against surviving death are astronomical"

I said the odds against surviving death are astronomical.

Your post seemed to be saying that there is suffering on earth but God will make it right after death. I don't think he can do that. There is no life after death.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Why? Can God figure out how to teach Christians to grow spiritually without pain and suffering?

I let my children sometimes have to deal with consequences of their actions to teach them. However, I would never let them run into the street when a car is coming to teach them a lesson, because I love them.

Apparently in some cases there is no other way. There is biblical evidence that spiritual laws may be similar to the laws of logic, even God cannot violate them. He definitely cannot go against the universal law of justice, ie that sin requires death. As far as your children analogy, the difference is for Christians death is going home, it may be time for some to go home so God may let them make a terrible mistake and get killed. From your perspective when your child gets hit by a car, you think you will never see them again and you have no control what happens to them after death. For God and His people the believer is going to a far better place.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Uh, no, your claim was, "If you live according to God's moral teachings you will probably not ever be in an ICU." I see you have completely backed down from that claim.

No, I have not. I said PROBABLY not be in an ICU, I did not say it would be guaranteed that you would never be in one. The probability is lower if you obey Gods laws.

dm: You have changed it to a list of good health advice, and suggested that following good health practices tends to promote good health. We all agree that following the good health advice you list promotes good health. We don't agree with your original claim.

It was more than good health advice, it is Gods moral laws for living. And I showed how by doing so you will usually be rewarded even in this world.

 

[doubtingmerle]

It was more than good health advice, it is Gods moral laws for living. And I showed how by doing so you will usually be rewarded even in this world.

Sir, what you listed was good health advice. Once again, what you said was:

do what the experts say to prevent exposure [to COVID].
eat healthy
not engage in unhealthy behaviors like smoking and drug use.
exercise.
not living a life of violence​

We all agree. Following good health practices usually leads to better health.

What we disagree with is your previous claim, "If you live according to God's moral teachings you will probably not ever be in an ICU." [emphasis added]

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Apparently in some cases there is no other way. There is biblical evidence that spiritual laws may be similar to the laws of logic, even God cannot violate them. He definitely cannot go against the universal law of justice, ie that sin requires death.

Then God is not the source of justice or spiritual laws? Then what is?

As far as your children analogy, the difference is for Christians death is going home, it may be time for some to go home so God may let them make a terrible mistake and get killed. From your perspective when your child gets hit by a car, you think you will never see them again and you have no control what happens to them after death. For God and His people the believer is going to a far better place.

So you believe God would let a kid get run over by a bus, causing pain and suffering to the kid and a lifetime of emotional pain for the parents and people that loved the kid?

This kind of belief seems to think pain and suffering in this world can be a good thing. I believe we should try to minimize pain and suffering for everyone. I can teach my kids to not play in the street without them having to be hit by a car.

 

[Silmarien]

I did not say, "God doesn't exist because the odds against surviving death are astronomical"

I said the odds against surviving death are astronomical.

Your post seemed to be saying that there is suffering on earth but God will make it right after death. I don't think he can do that. There is no life after death.

Why would he not be able to do that? Christianity in particular posits an afterlife that is actually physical, so you would still have brain function and thus cognitive functions with the Resurrection body.

 

[Ed1wolf]

So the medical staff shown in the OP is working to stop the suffering. Meanwhile, your God may have any one of a number of reasons to make this man suffer. They differ with God. They want less suffering. God, according to you, could be wanting more suffering.

I don't think suffering has near the good effect that you seem to think it has. But suppose suffering does wanders for people. Then why would anybody try to prevent this man from suffering? If the best thing that can happen to him is that he suffers, then the doctors would be doing him a disservice by treating him.

No, God doesn't WANT suffering, He just knows that sometimes it is necessary for spiritual growth so He lets it happen. No human knows when suffering will be good so since God has commanded all humans to alleviate suffering, any human that does not work to alleviate suffering and knowingly has the ability to do so without going against another command such as homicide or suicide is committing a sinful and evil act. If God determines that suffering is necessary in a particular case no human can stop it from happening.

 

[Ed1wolf]

It is one thing to say it is possible to survive suffering and make the most of it.

It is quite a different thing to say that the suffering is good.

I didn't say suffering is good, rather God brings good out of the evil of suffering.