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Of course not. I never said that. Studying His word, obeying His word, and partaking of the sacraments also help you to grow spiritually.Ed1wolf said: ↑
These laws are part of who He is, He cannot go against His own nature.
cw: So God has no power to grow us spiritually in another way other than with pain and suffering. Ok. I bet many other Christians would disagree with you here.
The most obvious case would be that his suffering led to him to convert and receive salvation and eternal life. But there could also be other things that we dont know about at present.ed: Yes, if it was necessary to produce a greater good.
cw: What could possibly be a greater good for anyone in that situation?
Of course. He has many times.ed: No, they are not good things, I never said that. I said God allows them to occur for greater goods. He can bring good out of the evil of suffering both for the sufferer and their family and friends.
cw: Can he stop a kid from being hit by a bus or a kid getting raped?
Yes, many Christians rarely suffer. It often depends on where you live. If you live in a society based on Christian principles you are less likely to suffer.cw: Why can't he just talk to us and convince us of truth instead of causing us pain and suffering? The bible shows that he can do that.
I didn't say it is necessary, I said it is sometimes necessary. Similar to war, sometimes suffering is a necessary evil to accomplish a greater good. How do you know suffering is not necessary? If you believe in evolution, and there was never any suffering you would not exist. In an atheistic evolutionary worldview, suffering was and is an absolute good if you wanted humans to exist and continue to evolve.If suffering is necessary, why is it not good?
I don't think suffering is necessary.
If you live in a society based on Christian principles you are less likely to suffer.
No, He never WANTS Christians to suffer. Sometimes He does want to punish an unbeliever for an evil act. But sometimes He allows it for Christians for our good.Does God want people to suffer in a way that is not good?
See above why He allows it sometimes.dm: If yes, then how can he be good?
If no, then why doesn't he stop it?
But sometimes He allows it for Christians for our good.
No, He never WANTS Christians to suffer. Sometimes He does want to punish an unbeliever for an evil act. But sometimes He allows it for Christians for our good.
You sound like a lot of atheists who think that if God exists He is obligated to provide you with a perfect life.
Like Trump, who was holding a Bible instead of his Bible, your resurrected person appears to have a brain instead of his brain. For if a person has been dead for centuries, the brain is mush and the particles could be scattered far and wide. Your God might be able to make another brain, but it is difficult to see how the new brain he makes for me would in any way be me.
But we digress. The person in the picture is suffering. It is not good that he is suffering. A good God would want the suffering to stop. A God that can transplant a brain into a corpse and bring it back to life would be able to make the suffering stop.
God is good. God is not, however, nice.
i never said he was obligated to keep all creatures healthy.
Is God morally obligated to heal all people sick from COVID?Sometimes his timing has not come. Over 500,000 people have suffered with COVID, only to die from it.
What kind of goodness is that? Sounds like a rule-follower who does what the rules say, but has no compassion for the hurts of others.
I would think a perfectly good God would also be nice.
Are you sure about that? Christ does not instead simply state to not own other humans as property. He instead takes a passive approach, not condemning slavery, but remaining almost neutral towards the entire topic. We abolished it on our own accord, not according to Jesus and His teachings...
- Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.
- Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.
cv: Jesus seems to, at least in part, advocate for the notion that woman are (less than) men.
- I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. I do not let women teach men or have authority over them.
cv: And don't even get me started on homosexuality....
The point being, is that <IN SPITE OF> Christianity and it's teachings, many societies have opted to move away from some 'Christian based values'.
Or how about the 'Sermon on the Mount"?
Yes, some societies have moved away from teachings on sexual behavior and look how it has affected them negatively and will affect them negatively in the future. Also, societies have moved away from the Christian high value of human life. And you can see the negative effects on society. But slavery was ended by Christians due to the principles stated above.
We dont always know, but we see in biblical examples that He always ultimately brings good out of evil and suffering for believers and their children. We will find out someday.(i.e.) What would be the 'good' in allowing Christian children to starve to death, be raped/tortured/murdered, or to die of cancer or some other painful disease/virus - (like Covid 19)?
I said He never wants it for His people, but sometimes unbelievers have to suffer their punishment as a consequence of their sin. God is just and sometimes brings judgement in this world, He doesn't always wait to the next.Wait, he never wants suffering but sometimes he wants it? Suffering is never good but sometimes he allows it because it is good?
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!
I am confused. If God can use a different method other than pain and suffering then why doesn't he?Of course not. I never said that. Studying His word, obeying His word, and partaking of the sacraments also help you to grow spiritually.
Could God lead someone to salvation without pain and suffering?The most obvious case would be that his suffering led to him to convert and receive salvation and eternal life. But there could also be other things that we don't know about at present.
That has yet to be demonstrated.Of course. He has many times.
Can you back up this claim?Yes, many Christians rarely suffer. It often depends on where you live. If you live in a society based on Christian principles you are less likely to suffer.
No, both Jesus and His disciples as Jews believed in what the Torah said about slavery that it was voluntary for most people and only involuntary for POWs and criminals. Read Exodus 21:16(shows you could not force people into slavery), Deut. 24:17 (shows foreigners are to be treated like Jews), therefore could sell themselves like jews as shown in Leviticus 25:47. And of course the verses you quoted apply, but only to voluntary slavery.
No, He just gives women different roles, women cannot teach adult men believers but they can teach children and adult men unbelievers. It is similar to you and your boss, you each have a different role, but it doesn't make you any less valuable than your boss. These roles dont apply outside the church, in society Christians have lifted women up to all kinds of roles. The Romans treated women horribly and Christians lifted women greatly in Roman society. Most of the women involved in the suffrage movement were Christians. And only in societies founded on Christian principles have women's movements.
Yes, some societies have moved away from teachings on sexual behavior and look how it has affected them negatively and will affect them negatively in the future. Also, societies have moved away from the Christian high value of human life. And you can see the negative effects on society. But slavery was ended by Christians due to the principles stated above.
We dont always know, but we see in biblical examples that He always ultimately brings good out of evil and suffering for believers and their children. We will find out someday.
As I stated earlier every person and situation is unique. He uses different methods for different people and different situations.Ed1wolf said: ↑
Of course not. I never said that. Studying His word, obeying His word, and partaking of the sacraments also help you to grow spiritually.
cw: I am confused. If God can use a different method other than pain and suffering then why doesn't he?
Yes, He uses many ways, like convincing evidence to name one.ed: The most obvious case would be that his suffering led to him to convert and receive salvation and eternal life. But there could also be other things that we don't know about at present.
cw: Could God lead someone to salvation without pain and suffering?
He has used bus drivers who put the brakes on just in time and mothers with intuition about a baby sitter or family member or teacher or priest among others.ed: Of course. He has many times.
cw: That has yet to be demonstrated.
A Christian living in a Muslim or Communist nation would be much more likely to suffer than a Christian living in the US.ed: Yes, many Christians rarely suffer. It often depends on where you live. If you live in a society based on Christian principles you are less likely to suffer.
cw: Can you back up this claim?
True, but I was primarily referring to suffering caused by society. But generally Christians by following Gods laws many sources of suffering can be reduced or even eliminated. See my earlier post to doubtingmerle where I explain in more detail.cw: Also, I know of no one christian or not that has not suffered in some way. We have all experienced loss and emotional pain if we have lived even a short time.