Where is your evidence creationists?

[Wiccan_Child]

Just to point out, discussing General Apologetics (yes, this includes the historicity of Christ), is pretty harshly penalised P&LS, and has closed more than a few threads.

 

[MoonLancer]

I'll answer the rest of your points tomorrow.

To answer this one:
(i) The Bible.
(ii) It's different because when you assess this text objectively using the historical method to determine it's accuracy and authenticity, then it can be demonstrated to be a true and accurate text. Sir Frederic Kenyon who wrote the book "Our Bible and the Ancient Manuscripts " (see electronic version here Master frameset) was so convinced of the historical reality of the events described in the New Testament that he said"The interval then between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established.""

So my challenge remains:

(i) Demonstrate using evidence (rather than opinion), that The Bible is not historically accurate and therefore does not reflect a truthful and accurate historical record.
(ii) Demonstrate that any alternative belief system holds a more truthful and historical accurate of events described in an alternative text, which can be tested and attested objectively and can be shown to better corroborate with history than the Christian record in The Bible does.

My evidence is The Bible.
You can carry on claiming that I have supplied "no evidence" if you like - but there's nothing of any substance in this claim.
What you actually need to start doing is supplying evidence to support your counter argument (if you have one) which can seriously challenge the demonstrated historical accuracy of the Bible.

(i) First Council of Nicea (enough said)
(ii) Every religion makes the claim that their text is correct and historical. Christianity is no different. You have a bias.

The bible is full of claims and you have yet to show that it is anything but that. sorry but special pleading doesn't count.

 

[MoonLancer]

Comprehensive rebuttal by:
Clarence W. MENDELL, Tacitus: The Man and his Work, Yale University Press/Oxford University Press (1957)

According to Mendell, neither John Wilson Ross (or any other writers) have won general acceptance of their estimates of Tacitus, the extreme positions have been abandoned, and the general integrity of Tacitus vindicated.

It would seem that the arguments for forgery have failed to find acceptance.

Actually it would seem that the arguments that it is valid have failed to find acceptance. Your already starting with the position that its valid which is not the scientific way to go about doing things ;p

 

[AV1611VET]

(ii) Every religion makes the claim that their text is correct and historical.

Including yours?

 

[MoonLancer]

Including yours?

one can be an Atheist and still be a Buddhist but you knew that, so i am not sure why you asked.

 

[cupid dave]

What a capricious and tyrannical being. Thank God I'm an atheist

Yes he is.
But you HAVE to love him, because he is all we mortals have.

He is Reality.

The sane p[erson realizes that Survival is the primal Instionct and hence, he wants to live.
This requires that he accept life as reality resents them, and adjusts his behavior accordingly.

In this regard, he can thank Reality for having created man in a way that any man can model an image of Reality, and can see, if he will, the Facts of Life for what they are.
This light will help man avoid the errors that will bring suffering and early death.

Truth is the light of the world must must bow down to,

 

[Fastener]

The sane p[erson realizes that Survival is the primal Instionct and hence, he wants to live.

We can want whatever we like but we will not get it just because we imagined we can get it.
You wishing and hoping there's a God changes nothing but don't let that stop you if it makes you feel good.

 

[cupid dave]

We can want whatever we like but we will not get it just because we imagined we can get it.
You wishing and hoping there's a God changes nothing but don't let that stop you if it makes you feel good.

You misunderstand me apparently.

I believe in one Reality which exists for all people, and I have faith in the Truth which my mind can image about that Reality to a certain degree.

It is by this enlightenment of thinking rationally that I can better survive in the one real world withinwhich I am trapped until death takes me to the grave.

This is a philosophy which personifies Truth as the mediator between men and this almighty entity within which I can not escape or avoid except by death.

This attitude, i.e.; to face the facts of life by the discover the Truth seems the definition of sanity, since to live in a fantasy world otherwise created is madness.

 

[Fastener]

You misunderstand me apparently.

I don't think I do, you believe there's a God therefore you believe in magic, if magic is reality for you then good luck.

 

[cupid dave]

I don't think I do, you believe there's a God therefore you believe in magic, if magic is reality for you then good luck.

How so?

I see nomagic in what the Bible tells uis, but merely things that ancient people could not explain.

Give me an example of some magic event.

 

[Fastener]

How so?

I see nomagic in what the Bible tells uis, but merely things that ancient people could not explain.

Give me an example of some magic event.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth = magic.

 

[someguy14]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth = magic.

= beautiful, friend.

Find the love in it friend. Conscience. Our minds awakened and the prescence of love in one. God IS love. We all desire it, we all long for it. Our conscience bearing witness. It is God. It deletes all sepration that mankinds mind can imagine and joins us in unity as one. We are Loves creation and those that oppose it will be destoryed, for all that aren't of Love invest in destruction and inherit their reward. Destruction. Deletion. All have a chance to become part of the greatest and eternal enduring joys and peace that Love offers us. Our maker. Flesh is temporary, though made by God, Love is The eternal. All that abide in true Love abide in God. And God will not forsake those that abide in Him.

 

[Fastener]

God IS love.

God is Hate if you don't believe in the same God as me, God is the pity you feel for me if I don't love your God,
your God will keep us apart if I'm an Atheist, your God will kill any love you feel for me and all because of my Atheism,
just because I don't believe as you do you will have nothing to do with me, how is that love? Gods separate people.

Gods are nothing but trouble for everyone, Gods are divisive, Gods break up families and destroy love.

Some love, some God.

Your God lives in your mind and distorts everything you think.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Yes he is.
But you HAVE to love him, because he is all we mortals have.

I don't have to love him at all. Isn't that the whole point? We can choose?

He is Reality.

The sane p[erson realizes that Survival is the primal Instionct and hence, he wants to live.
This requires that he accept life as reality resents them, and adjusts his behavior accordingly.

More or less. The question, then, is what is reality? What we can deduce with our senses? Or what a book tells us is there?

In this regard, he can thank Reality for having created man in a way that any man can model an image of Reality, and can see, if he will, the Facts of Life for what they are.
This light will help man avoid the errors that will bring suffering and early death.

Truth is the light of the world must must bow down to,

So sayeth a thousand thousand religions. If I'm in a box, and you say I'm in a sinking ship and need to get in your lifeboat, and someone else says I'm in a downing plane and need to wear her parachute, my first question is: am I, in fact, in any danger at all? With all these religions screaming that we need saving and hell is just around the corner, I stare bemusedly back at them - where, sir, is the evidence for our urgent need for salvation?

 

[MoonLancer]

God IS love.

Only when you ignore the bible. When one reads the bible a very different view emerges. Gods killing babies left and right (or telling others to do so)

 

[ianb321red]

(i) First Council of Nicea (enough said)
(ii) Every religion makes the claim that their text is correct and historical. Christianity is no different. You have a bias.

The bible is full of claims and you have yet to show that it is anything but that. sorry but special pleading doesn't count.

(i) First Council of Nicea primarily rejected Arianism. What exactly is your point?

(ii) I'm afraid this is such a poor argument, and one that I would challenge you or anyone else to back up.
Firstly, it's completely wrong to say that "every religion" makes these claims. Give me one example of another religion (other than Christianity) which argues for it's validity based on historical accuracy. And don't just name another religion - lay out the argument briefly with a reference to the historical evidence.
If you research this properly then you will find that only Christianity is founded on actual historical evidence.

Secondly, it's a totally fallacious argument anyway. Do you not understand that something can only be true if it corresponds to reality? Does it not occur that if 2 belief systems say opposite things then they both cannot be true?
The argument that other religions making truth claims based on correctness and historical evidence somehow cancel each other out is completely false.

And yet again you've provided 2 points (they're not arguments) and nothing evidence wise to back them up.
In future, if you say something like "First Council of Nicea (enough said)" - it might be an idea to actually explain what your argument actually is??? Or have you just picked up a copy of The Da Vinci code?

 

[ianb321red]

Actually it would seem that the arguments that it is valid have failed to find acceptance.

What is your source for this statement (other than your opinion)? My research shows that it has found acceptance amongst the majority of historical scholars:

"As to the reliability of that source, following normal historical practice, it is prudently assumed to be accurate until demonstrated otherwise." John P. Meier (A Marginal Jew, p. 91)

"..there are good reasons for concluding with the vast majority of scholars that this passage is fundamentally sound" (referring to Annals 15:44) Robert Van Voorst (Jesus Outside the New Testament, pp. 42-43)

Your already starting with the position that its valid which is not the scientific way to go about doing things ;p

On the contrary - it is completely scientific. That's the whole point!
Do you know what objectivity is? It means that something ( a text in this case) can assessed and measured outside of an individuals opinion or preference..
So as I say, the validity is established in that it stands up to all the historical testing that I have previously mentioned a number of times.
It's not a claim of validity - something becomes valid because there is no evidence to prove the opposite i.e. that it is invalid.

So once again I say - until it can be proven (with evidence) The Bible is invalid, then the testing and research that has been conducted which supports it's validity, still holds true.
This isn't based on my opinion or view - it's merely acknowledging the facts that exist objectively to anybody to support it.

 

[Greg1234]

Only when you ignore the bible. When one reads the bible a very different view emerges. Gods killing babies left and right (or telling others to do so)

Yet we are the babies of the Adam.

 

[Greg1234]

So sayeth a thousand thousand religions. If I'm in a box, and you say I'm in a sinking ship and need to get in your lifeboat, and someone else says I'm in a downing plane and need to wear her parachute, my first question is: am I, in fact, in any danger at all? With all these religions screaming that we need saving and hell is just around the corner, I stare bemusedly back at them - where, sir, is the evidence for our urgent need for salvation?

No difference between darkness and darkness.

 

[someguy14]

God is Hate if you don't believe in the same God as me, God is the pity you feel for me if I don't love your God,
your God will keep us apart if I'm an Atheist, your God will kill any love you feel for me and all because of my Atheism,
just because I don't believe as you do you will have nothing to do with me, how is that love? Gods separate people.

Gods are nothing but trouble for everyone, Gods are divisive, Gods break up families and destroy love.

Some love, some God.

Your God lives in your mind and distorts everything you think.

Maybe this will help.

Love is God.
If this temporary earth is all one has, then they will return to dust as the earth. The fleshly bodies are only temporary, friend. Truth proves that.
Love is eternal.
The truth is all facts. To be in truth, fully, one must believe in the spirit and truth(all facts).

You know the difference between being nice and being rude.
You know the difference between Love and the things that perish.